I think the whole question of Germans receiving reparations from Poland for what happened in WWII is totally ludicrous.
Think about it. Germany starts the war, invades Poland, subjects the Poles to a brutal and murderous occupation, invades Russia, gets its ass kicked by the Soviet Army in the east, retreats from the conquered territories pursued by the Red Army and then says that Poland owes the Germans reparations? I don't think so.
Poland wants Schröder to speak out against reparation claims
Oberserwer
Simply the German properties of the ones who lived in Sowjet Union were compensated by the SU in 1940, when the people left voluntarely,thru an aggreement with the TR.
The Koenigsberg area is allready being settled by approx.18000
Germans and still growing.This are people of German ethnicity from far east Russia etc.who other wise would settle in Ger.
Simply the German properties of the ones who lived in Sowjet Union were compensated by the SU in 1940, when the people left voluntarely,thru an aggreement with the TR.
The Koenigsberg area is allready being settled by approx.18000
Germans and still growing.This are people of German ethnicity from far east Russia etc.who other wise would settle in Ger.
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Obserwator
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So the Russian govt.gave back willingly all the buildings Germans left behind and no demands for compensation were meet ?The Koenigsberg area is allready being settled by approx.18000
Germans and still growing
And why would they like to settle there-didn't you claim that conditions there were terrible ?Anyway this article says differently :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ortal.html
And in the end a very wise words :The Bonn-based society, which is concentrating on reclaiming homes in Poland but will also back Sudeten Germans thrown out of the Czech Republic and of East Prussians from Russia, was established two years ago
Germans of today increasingly forget that the generations of their fathers and grandfathers, not just Hitler alone, were responsible for killing millions of people."
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walterkaschner
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Dan wrote:
Claims for even the most egregious injustices have to reach their angle of repose after a period of time. It is impossible to right all the wrongs that have been done by one people against another over the millenia. Where does one stop? In Texas one often sees a bumper sticker which, apart from its extreme crudeness, for which I apologize, pretty well mirrors my sentiments. It reads "S..t happens! Get over it!"
World War II has been over for almost 60 years. Few citizens of the various combatant nations were untouched by it - untold millions were grievously harmed in their person or property, - a score of million unto death! That is two generations by classical reckoning (albeit somewhat less as the age of childbearing has lengthened.) My late wife's parents lost their landed estate and all their possessions when Silesia became a part of Poland. On what basis (other than greed) should my children - their grandchildren - who have a successful life of their own, and only the slightest and vaguest notion of their grandparents' lost property and possesions, have any right to compensation from the Polish State for a loss from which they never personally suffered? I can think of none.
Regards, Kaschner
The wisest post on this thread!!There comes a point where you just have to accept the status quo and get on with life. If the Germans and Poles weren't so stupid, they would have realized that they have a natural opportunity for a kind of partnership that could have made both nations great. Hopefully that will change, and they will look towards each other with optimism rather than greed or vengence.
Claims for even the most egregious injustices have to reach their angle of repose after a period of time. It is impossible to right all the wrongs that have been done by one people against another over the millenia. Where does one stop? In Texas one often sees a bumper sticker which, apart from its extreme crudeness, for which I apologize, pretty well mirrors my sentiments. It reads "S..t happens! Get over it!"
World War II has been over for almost 60 years. Few citizens of the various combatant nations were untouched by it - untold millions were grievously harmed in their person or property, - a score of million unto death! That is two generations by classical reckoning (albeit somewhat less as the age of childbearing has lengthened.) My late wife's parents lost their landed estate and all their possessions when Silesia became a part of Poland. On what basis (other than greed) should my children - their grandchildren - who have a successful life of their own, and only the slightest and vaguest notion of their grandparents' lost property and possesions, have any right to compensation from the Polish State for a loss from which they never personally suffered? I can think of none.
Regards, Kaschner
I said ethnic Germans from Russia not from Germany!!Obserwator wrote:So the Russian govt.gave back willingly all the buildings Germans left behind and no demands for compensation were meet ?The Koenigsberg area is allready being settled by approx.18000
Germans and still growing
These are rural people who took the opportunity the Ger government offered to them,by aquiring their own land given by the Russians in exchange to get the area populated again.They could care less if they would have not gotten favorable aid from Ger to start a new live.Isn't that what caused the Polish protests in Moscow?
The Bonn-based society,
Now thats a personal oppinion besides the man got not even the town right!
Last edited by Landser on 03 Aug 2004, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Obserwator
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A couple of questions.I said ethnic Germans from Russia not from Germany!!
These are rural people who took the opportunity the Ger government offered to them,by aquiring their own land giving by the Russians in exchange to get the area populated again
What measure of free will had these people when faced with decisions made by German and USSR regime. Did anybody even cared about their opinion ?
Where did they go to ? Didn't they go to Poland perhaps to settle villages wiped out by German army ?
So what about Germans from Germany eh ? Besides territories Poland regained from German occupation (since 1792) there were parts of Germany that Russia took. So what about them-did Germans from Germany (East Prussia) gain any compensation ? Did they ask for their property ?
Oberweser
For the last time this are people who had their choice eather wait
till your number is up to go to Ger.Or settle in stead in Russian enclave which some of them prefered.Most of them are 2nd or 3rd generations Germans some of them have language problems besides whole villages emigrated this way to new pastures.They could careless
about Poland and their anxieties.
For the last time this are people who had their choice eather wait
till your number is up to go to Ger.Or settle in stead in Russian enclave which some of them prefered.Most of them are 2nd or 3rd generations Germans some of them have language problems besides whole villages emigrated this way to new pastures.They could careless
about Poland and their anxieties.
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Obserwator
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But I am asking you about expelled from the parts of East Prussia USSR took in 1945, cities of Kaliningrad, Sovetsk (Tilsit), Chernyakhovsk (Insterburg), Gusev (Gumbinnen), and Baltiysk (Pilau).For the last time this are people who had their choice eather wait
till your number is up to go to Ger.Or settle in stead in Russian enclave which some of them prefered
So where are their claims against Russian govt. ?
And I am still waiting for answers about those who "willingly" got out of USSR in 1940 as you claim. Didn't they go to Poland perhaps to settle villages wiped out by German army ?
What a slow lerner you are!!!
Russia is no member of the EU !!!
Capito,that's why.
And again, the others have NO claim!!
Basta!
PS Now Lithuania has contacted former Ger property owners from Memelland and offered back their lands,but with conditions.You would have to sign a contract and live there at least for 2 years straight. I don't know of any takers,the two individuals I know of who went there and looked it over - thankfully declined.
Russia is no member of the EU !!!
Capito,that's why.
And again, the others have NO claim!!
Basta!
PS Now Lithuania has contacted former Ger property owners from Memelland and offered back their lands,but with conditions.You would have to sign a contract and live there at least for 2 years straight. I don't know of any takers,the two individuals I know of who went there and looked it over - thankfully declined.
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Musashi
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He is not a slow learner.Landser wrote:What a slow lerner you are!!!
Russia is no member of the EU !!!
Capito,that's why.
I suppose he wanted to hear such an answer
And I don't think it is the full answer.No basta, mein Freund. We will continue tomorrow, be sure.Landser wrote:Basta!
Jetzt schlaffengeh'n
(Now we are going to sleep - [for moderator]).-
Obserwator
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Oh but they made their claims before we joined EU. And demanded that German govt. took actions.What a slow lerner you are!!!
Russia is no member of the EU !!!
Capito,that's why.
Why don't they make the claims towards Russia ? Why don't they demand that German govt. asks to restore their property in Russia like they did in case of Poland before we even wanted to join EU.
What are their reasons for avoiding Russia ?
Oh,mon...Obserwator wrote:
Why don't they demand that German govt. asks to restore their property in Russia like they did in case of Poland before we even wanted to join EU.
They do,they do,they....
But I yes they will take action when it's appropiate .
That's it! this topic ran it's course for me. cia.
The fate of the Volksdeutsche in eastern Europe between 1944 and 1949 is a tragic tale. Estimates of the number who died that I've seen range between 1 and 2 million, many of them women, children, and the elderly. Large numbers of these families had nothing to do with Nazism or the War and had been settled in Poland, Czecheslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Russia for centuries. Others had already been "relocated" once from the Baltics and froim western Russia and "resettled" in western Poland or the Altreich as part of the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle's activities under the auspices of the SS. As the War ended, by virtue of their German ethnicity, they were singled out, brutalized, forcibly expelled from their homes, and uncerimoniously dumped in occupied Germany or sent by boxcar to the Soviet Union, where large numbers died in forced labor camps. They joined the millions of other displaced persons and refugees that are the flotsam of every War and suffered mightly, just as the others did. This deserves far more attention from historians in the west than it has received to date. There is virtually nothing in English available. For those who can read German, I recommend the series "Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ost-MItteleuropa" published in the 50's by the Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, Flüchtlinge, und Kriegsgeschädigte. The thousands of depositions from victims contained in these volumes, however, are difficult to read and once again offer testimony to man's inhumanity toward his fellow man.
Billb
Billb
Had Czechs or Poles any other choice but kick out all Germans till the last one? Just a few years ago (in 1938 and 1939 respectively) Hitler used vast German’s minority as a pretext for invasion.
So, they could have afraid that within next 20 years another German lunatic started a next war under the pretext he fight for rights of German minority. Solution? Let Germans taste their own medicine.
Besides shouldn’t they be grateful? They lived in a free country instead under commie’s occupation. They would have lost their property in next years anyway, like many Poles and Czechs. The only difference would have been not for being German but for being rich. Commies nationalized (for instance in Poland) all farms which was larger than 50 ha (about 120 acres), and all mills, palaces, factories and so on.
Cheers!
So, they could have afraid that within next 20 years another German lunatic started a next war under the pretext he fight for rights of German minority. Solution? Let Germans taste their own medicine.
Besides shouldn’t they be grateful? They lived in a free country instead under commie’s occupation. They would have lost their property in next years anyway, like many Poles and Czechs. The only difference would have been not for being German but for being rich. Commies nationalized (for instance in Poland) all farms which was larger than 50 ha (about 120 acres), and all mills, palaces, factories and so on.
Cheers!
Last edited by Fredd on 04 Aug 2004, 09:26, edited 1 time in total.
A bit of info for our German friends (no irony here)
1) Arguing that since Poland is member of EU it had to behave according to seom laws is absurd. Law is not retrospective. Poland signed many treaties AFTER the war (including those ones which according ro BdV are legal basis for trials for reparations), but they - since they were not only not -signed, but non-existent in 1945 - could not be made legal basis for any trial. Law is not retrospective. Otherwise we could start to demand for properties burnt by Teutonic Knights and similar absurds.
2) Poland never received any reparations. Individual few slave labourers, but only those working in Germany and only those who were still alive in some 50 years after the war, received some alm, but that's it. It means that we could indeed demand reparations for 6 millions of citizen who died as effect of aggressive war, for whole country razed to the ground, slave work of millions of citizens etc. Do not open Pandora book.
3) The number of German victims is controversial. First, many of expelled escaped or were evacuated by Nazis BEFORE Soviets took over the area. Many were expelled by Soviets before Polish administration took over the area. Attributing 2 millions of deaths to "Polish atroicities" is therefore irrational.
4) I am sorry for suffering of those Germans who were expelled from Silesia, Pomerania, but i have no understanding for their claims. During war all around the place were camps for Polish and foreign slave workers, who were executed for slightest crime and treated very cruelly. Their uncles, brothers, fathers were murdering and shooting civilians in Poland, Russia and numerous other places. Their government started the ethic cleansing thing by expelling millions of Poles from their homes (confiscating them without reparations) since 1939 - how many of BdV heard about Zamojszczyzna for example?
5) There are legal basis in some accidents for getting back property of those few hundreds thousand of Germans who were forced to leave country in 50's - since they were forced to sign resignation of properyt rights, which could argued that was effect of blackmail and therefore unimportant.
6) One can demand reparation of stolen car, even from Polish government, but only if he would be able to prove, that stealing of this car was effect of policy of government of Poland. If not, he can demand reparation for the thief himself. Therefore idea was indeed, paranoid. But this reminds us, that transfer of German population was not effect of sovereign Polish policy (and not just ebcause Polish gvt was a soviet puppet which imprisoned thousands of AK soldiers - Poland was in state of civil war), but effect of deals made over Polish heads by Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill.
Anyway, there is no point in discussing it. War is over. Time to get a life.
PS:
My grandfather was slave labourer - he never received any reparations. He however was quite lucky ones - he was slaev for German catholic family in Bavaria, which treated him as human being, not - as his collegues experienced - as animals which had to be used and replaced after death.
1) Arguing that since Poland is member of EU it had to behave according to seom laws is absurd. Law is not retrospective. Poland signed many treaties AFTER the war (including those ones which according ro BdV are legal basis for trials for reparations), but they - since they were not only not -signed, but non-existent in 1945 - could not be made legal basis for any trial. Law is not retrospective. Otherwise we could start to demand for properties burnt by Teutonic Knights and similar absurds.
2) Poland never received any reparations. Individual few slave labourers, but only those working in Germany and only those who were still alive in some 50 years after the war, received some alm, but that's it. It means that we could indeed demand reparations for 6 millions of citizen who died as effect of aggressive war, for whole country razed to the ground, slave work of millions of citizens etc. Do not open Pandora book.
3) The number of German victims is controversial. First, many of expelled escaped or were evacuated by Nazis BEFORE Soviets took over the area. Many were expelled by Soviets before Polish administration took over the area. Attributing 2 millions of deaths to "Polish atroicities" is therefore irrational.
4) I am sorry for suffering of those Germans who were expelled from Silesia, Pomerania, but i have no understanding for their claims. During war all around the place were camps for Polish and foreign slave workers, who were executed for slightest crime and treated very cruelly. Their uncles, brothers, fathers were murdering and shooting civilians in Poland, Russia and numerous other places. Their government started the ethic cleansing thing by expelling millions of Poles from their homes (confiscating them without reparations) since 1939 - how many of BdV heard about Zamojszczyzna for example?
5) There are legal basis in some accidents for getting back property of those few hundreds thousand of Germans who were forced to leave country in 50's - since they were forced to sign resignation of properyt rights, which could argued that was effect of blackmail and therefore unimportant.
6) One can demand reparation of stolen car, even from Polish government, but only if he would be able to prove, that stealing of this car was effect of policy of government of Poland. If not, he can demand reparation for the thief himself. Therefore idea was indeed, paranoid. But this reminds us, that transfer of German population was not effect of sovereign Polish policy (and not just ebcause Polish gvt was a soviet puppet which imprisoned thousands of AK soldiers - Poland was in state of civil war), but effect of deals made over Polish heads by Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill.
Anyway, there is no point in discussing it. War is over. Time to get a life.
PS:
My grandfather was slave labourer - he never received any reparations. He however was quite lucky ones - he was slaev for German catholic family in Bavaria, which treated him as human being, not - as his collegues experienced - as animals which had to be used and replaced after death.