Roma mark Holocaust at Auschwitz

[Marcus]

Hundreds of Roma have filed through the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp to honour those massacred there 60 years ago by the Nazis.
Roma, also known as Gypsies, came from across Europe for the ceremony in the former prison camp in southern Poland, which has been preserved as a museum.
It was the largest act of remembrance for the Holocaust's Roma victims.
Some fear Roma losses are overshadowed in histories of the Holocaust, in which millions of Jews were killed.
At least 250,000 Roma are believed to have been killed, with 19,000 of the 23,000 sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau dying in a special section of the camp where Roma were held.
Many succumbed to typhus and smallpox epidemics but 2 August is remembered as the day when the Nazis marched old Roma men, women and children into the gas chambers as Soviet forces closed in.
On Monday, beside the barbed wire fence in a corner of the 175-hectare field that housed the Birkenau death camp, both Roma and political leaders talked of the need not to forget the Holocaust, or "Pharrajimos", of their people.
"Auschwitz-Birkenau is a symbol of the genocide perpetrated on our people," Roman Kwiatkowski, chief Roma representative in Poland, said.
A German envoy to the ceremony, Environment Minister Juergen Trittin, said his country fully acknowledged its guilt towards the Roma and the Sinti, a related people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3527024.stm

/Marcus

[David Thompson]

Interested readers can find more on these threads:

Gypsies in Birkenau
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47982

Nazi racial policies towards Jews and Gypsies
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25928

Gypsy lawsuit against IBM advances
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=16695

The extermination of the Gypsies
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15272

Gypsi holocaust?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=11756

[RACPISA]

Thanks for posting that, Marcus. I was wondering how many gypsies sent to Birkenau had survived there, since many of them were killed on the one day.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to Chairman Wendel, his august lieutenants and the community as a whole. Well Marcus, in reference to your introductory posting of Monday - August 02, 2004 - 6:10pm, old Uncle Bob is generally curious about the present day attitude toward the Roma in contemporary Europe. When I have the time, I monitor both the British Broadcasting Corporation and the World Radio Network. Every so often, these respective media organizations will occasionally air an anecdotal expose on the trials and tribulations of the Roma. From what I can glean from these human interest stories is that the present day Roma are not generally well received no matter where they might sojourn in greater Europe. I seem to get the distinct impression (rightly OR wrongly) that a number of European Governments would not exactly shed any elephant tears if the contemporary Roma disappeared tomorrow. So, are the radio programs that I digest misrepresentative of the true picture in Europe OR is there more than a grain of truth to the unpleasantness which is allegedly heaped upon the Roma? Just curious. Well, that's my two cents on this tawdry subject - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you a wonderful day over in the land of the midnight sun.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob 8)

[JariL]

Hi Uncle Bob,

The situation varies a lot between the European countries. The ex socialist countries are probably the worst from the point of view of the Roma. The bigger the dip in economic conditions after the collapse of the wall, the tighter the situation of the Roma too.

The Roma population faces more or less the same problem in which ever country they decide to leave and that problem is education. There are very few countries where Roma language and cultural aspects are taught at school (Nordic countries being an exception to an extent at least). In general this means that Roma children go into normal schools, which raises the question of how to retain ones identity? School systems are usually designed so that they assimilate the pupils into the surrounding society and this is excactly what many Roma do not want. The result is very often that Roma children do not receive similar education as other children or that they do, but loose at least part of their identity.

Rasism towards the Roma exists in every European country. Even in the Nordic countries where the minority status of the Roma is well protected by law everyday rasism and predjudice are common. Those Roma who want to retain their culture stand out from the crowd and many of their habits makes it difficult for the surroundings to cope with them or to understand them. Add to this a reputation that part of the Roma have as free riders in the welfare system and you get the picture. One piece of news of a 20 year pensioner killing a person or mugging him has a long lasting impact on Roma image. A number of succesfull lawyers or artists do not considerably change the picture -especially because these succesfull Roma seldom advertise their back ground.

Paradoxically the only solution to the problem is that the majority just accepts the fact that Roma are different and let them have it their way. With this I don't mean that the majority should accept anything especially finacially, because foll and his money are soon departed and Roma have a powerfull tradition in trading;-) If this is not possible then there is no other solution unless the Roma are willing to become assimilated. And that has not been the case as far as I know.

Regards,

Jari

[nondescript handle]

[...] old Uncle Bob is generally curious about the present day attitude toward the Roma in contemporary Europe. [...]

Bob,
in the case of Germany it is useful to seperate the Roma in certain groups, as there are
- approx. 70'000 German citizens who are Sinti
- approx. 50'000 German citizens who are non-Sinti Roma
- approx. 20'000 Roma who are refugee seekers or 'illegal'

Romanes is an official German minorety language (along with Sorbian, Frisian, Danish and Lower Saxon), which enables some Romanes teaching in public schools.
But the situation in school is not as good as for the other minorety languages, as Roma are not geographicly concentrated as the other minoreties.

There are some legal hassles for vagrant people in Germany, as this is not a 'normal German style of living' and is strongly associated with illegal activeties.
But on the other hand nearly all Sinti and more than 90% of German non-Sinti Roma are setteled and integrated into the German society for generations (a parallel to the German Jews).

Sinti are living, by definition, for at least 600 years in Germany so they have no cultural or language barriers. And its similar with most non-Sinti Roma citizens, most of whom are living in Germany for generations.

But a lot of (~60%) non-Roma Germans have prejudices and stereotypes of 'Gypsies' (ranging from romanticised 'tavelling people' to oughtright racist 'they're all filthy thieves'). Most of them are simply born out of ignorance and vanish when confronted with a real German Sinti/Rom, but some have hardened into a form of racism.

The recently (= post-cold-war) arrived Roma (mostly Romanian citizens) face a very different situation: they are mostly very poor, uneducated and unable to speak German. Add to this the difficulties of the ones that are 'illegal immigrants', and its easy to explain why this population has a very high rate of criminal behavior.
A part of them is brought illegaly into German by organised crime organisations to beg or to commit crimes (e.g. pickpocketing). Unfortunately this small group of poor and exploited Rom revives the old stereotype of the 'criminal, filthy and houseless Gipsy', e.g. in the law enforcement agencies.

Regards
Mark

[Brotherhood of the Cross]

[...] old Uncle Bob is generally curious about the present day attitude toward the Roma in contemporary Europe. [...]

In Romania none calls them Roma, but they are called tigani, pronounced close to the German Zigeuner. They don't like to call themselves like that as tigan-tzigan-zigeuner because it means in their language "not-to-be-touched" a remainder of their origins: "untouchables" - the lowest indian casts. Due to this unfortunate coincidence in names many Europeans begun to think that Romania is the place where the gipsy originate.
Furthermore the status the gispy had in Romania as compared to other countries was/is quite different. In Romania most gipsies were slaves and theoretically became free a hundred years ago or so. However, the truth is that most of them became free only when the commies came around and confiscated the lands of the landlords. A friend of mine told me how his grandfather owned a village of gipsies up until 1947 when the commies came, arrested him and set the gipsy free. Sounds nice but the truth is that their life was even harder during the communism. They become scattered, emigrated to the big cities where they formed mafias and stole for a leaving. My friend used to tell me how the masters of the gipsy clan came each Christmas to their former landlord and sang Carolls although this was quite dangerous to do during the communism. It may seem despicable to the western citizen, but that organisation of the society gave them identity, purpose and meaning. The communism made the situation worse for them as well as for everyone else.

The recently (= post-cold-war) arrived Roma (mostly Romanian citizens) face a very different situation: they are mostly very poor, uneducated and unable to speak German. Add to this the difficulties of the ones that are 'illegal immigrants', and its easy to explain why this population has a very high rate of criminal behavior.
A part of them is brought illegaly into German by organised crime organisations to beg or to commit crimes (e.g. pickpocketing). Unfortunately this small group of poor and exploited Rom revives the old stereotype of the 'criminal, filthy and houseless Gipsy', e.g. in the law enforcement agencies.

It is not a stereotype it is the truth. The gipsies in Romania are organised in tribal way. There are slaves! who work hard abroad for the master (bulibasha). Some of the bulibasha are so rich that were able to involve police, customs and politicians by paying enourmous bribes. The level and complexity of the gipsy organised crime are impossible to imagine by a outsider. I have seen so many times gipsies which commited serious crimes and got away with it that it makes me sick only when I think about it. Slavery and kidnaping are widespread in Bucharest especially and Interpol reports have shown that they are all coordinated by the Gipsy clans, of course with the support of the police and customs.
Anyway, this will be a long lasting problem.

[Marcus]

Please stay on topic, that is the suffering of the Roma during the war, if you want to discuss the present situation, please do so in the Lounge.

/Marcus