Sergey Romanov wrote:
But Stalin was not a chief Nazi
Oh.. And Gorby was the chief of 'Stalinists'?
Sergey Romanov wrote: By this "argument" _any_ historical evidence can be swept away. If we believe that Stalin was a liar, why shouldn't we believe that historians of the Napoleon era are not liars?
That's natural argument because it's mutually exclusive that both sides aren't liars in this particular case.
Sergey Romanov wrote: Why, then, did the Commission said "December"? Because it needed to explain why the Poles wore winter uniform.
What do you call winter uniform? An overcoat (øèíåëü)? Maybe for a Western European it is a winter uniform but you know winter in the West Europe and in Russia as unlike as day and night. It's not good for the health to wear only summer uniform even in Russian September especially for unaccustomed Poles, besides not all of the bodies were in the overcoats (the grave #8 in German's report).
Sergey Romanov wrote: So, the report - Soviet only evidence on the issue - is untrustworthy.
I don't think so. The span September - December doesn't contradict with the testimonies.
Sergey Romanov wrote: Let me quote from 1952 report of the Congress commission on the Katyn Massacre
Thanks, interesting. But... 1952. A good year, you know. The peak of Cold War. It could be just a propaganda action.
Dr. Palmieri testified as follows:
“In the bodies, at least in many of the bodies, Professor Orsos ob-
served the presence of growths (corns)—in the inside of the cran-
iuin, pseudo growths in the internal part of the skull, which are
due to manifestations of reduction of the mineralization of the
brain—of the cerebral tissues and of the other substances con-
tained in the skull.”
In the German report (Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn. Im Auftrage des Auswartiges Amtes auf Grund urkundlichen Beweismaterial zusammen-gestellt, bearbeitet und herausgegeben von der Deutschen Iniormationstelle) we can read that Orsos made his conclusion examining only one skull of body # 526. So the whole medical proof about how long a time were they buried is based on the examining of one skull with some Orsos' 'new method'.
as an expert want to comment this method? Is this real to make the conclusion of timeline from one skull using described way?
Sergey Romanov wrote: And, of course, there was a Polish Red Cross report, which was not published until 1980s (probably in order not to embrass USSR), which confirms that the exhumation was done in an orderly manner.
Really? That's my translation from this report (I hope someone provide us with link on the full English version):
Members of the Commision were not allowed to review and sort any documents on the dead bodies. They were obligated to deposit the documents found in the envelopes
these filled up envelopes were transmited into the Buero of German Secret Police Secretariat
the Commision laid special emphasis on the fact that Germans took out the diaries, letters etc for translating into German. The Commision couldn't claim that all this things were returned back
How do you like it? They had no right to look at documents they collected and they didn't know if these documents were returned! So, Germans could easy destroy all unwanted documents (with dates after spring 1940 for example) and Commision could't even learn about this. That's realy was done in an orderly manner!
Sergey Romanov wrote: These facts are alone decisive on whom one is better to trust. And, of course, there are the primary documents published in 1992. No matter how loudly some persons scream about them being forgeries, they can't prove it.
Ok. But who PROVED that Burdenko materials were forged? For example letters and other papers dated after spring 1940 that disproved Nazi version. His commission had found some such documents.
From Report by a Special Soviet Commission, 24 January 1944 wrote:
Documents found on the corpses
In addition to the information proven in the documents of the forensic medical report, the time of the shootings of the Polish prisoners of war by the Germans (autumn 1941, not the spring of 1940, as claimed by the Germans), was also established by documents discovered during the excavation of the graves, dating not only from the second half of 1940, but also from the spring and summer (March -June) of 1941.
Among the documents discovered by the forensic experts, the following merit particular attention:
1) on body 92:
A letter from Warsaw in the Russian language addressed to the Central Office for Prisoners of War, Moscow, Kuibuschewstreet no. 12. In the letter, "Sophie" asks "Sigon", to let her know the whereabouts of her husband, Thomas Sigon. The letter is dated 12.9.1940. The envelope bears German postage cancellation "Warsaw IX40", and cancellation "Moscow Post Office 9 Expedition 28/IX40", as well a notice written in red ink, in the Russian language, reading "Find camp and deliver 15/XI40" (signature illegible).
2) on body 4:
A registered postcard no. 0112 from Tarnopol with cancellation "Tarnopol 12/X40". The manuscript text and address are obliterated.
3) on body 101:
Receipt no. 10293 dated 19.XII.1939, issued in camp Koselsk, for pawn of a gold watch accepted by LEWANDOWSKY EDUARD ADAMOWITSCH. The reverse of this receipt bears a note dated 14 March 1941, stating that the watch had been sold to "Juwelirtorg".
4) on body 46:
A receipt issued in Starobelskyi camp on 16.XII.1939 for the pawn of a gold watch accepted by ARASCHKEWITSCH WLADIMIR RUDOLPHOWITSCH. The reverse of the receipt bears a note dated 25 March 1941, stating that the watch had been sold to "Juwelirtorg".
5) on body 71:
A devotional image of paper with a picture of Jesus, discovered between pages 144 and 145 of a Catholic prayer book. The reverse of the devotional image bears a legible note with signature "Jadvinja" and date "4 April 1941".
6) on body 46:
A receipt issued in camp no. 1ON on 5 May 1941 for the deposit of a sum of money in the amount of 225 rubles accepted by ARASCHKEWITSCH.
7) on the same body (46):
A receipt issued in camp no. 1ON on 6 April 1941 for the deposit of a sum of money in the amount of 102 rubles accepted by ARASCHKEWITSCH.
8) on body 101:
A receipt issued in camp no. 1ON on 18 May 1941 for the deposit of a sum of money in the amount of 175 rubles accepted by LEWANDOWSKY.
9) on body 53:
An unforwarded postcard in the Polish language with the address:
Warsaw, Bagatelja 15, house 47,
Irene Kutschinskaja, date: 20 June 1941.
Sender: Stanislav Kutschinskij.
Sergey Romanov wrote: Nor can they explain why someone would go to great lengths to forge these relatively insignificant documents, while they had an opportunity to forge the documents, "proving" that Stalin shot tens of millions in GULAG and elsewhere.
There was a wide-ranging propaganda campaign against the 'Stalinism' in the Soviet Mass Media during perestroyka. At least they claimed that Stalin shot tens of millions.
Thanks God there were no bloody civil war in perestroyka time as it was at the beginning of 20 century when Russians fiercely killed Russians but nevertheless there was a hot IDEOLOGY struggle that ended up with the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was no-holds-barred struggle and as Gorby and his friend Yakovlev had later admitted themselves their mission was liquidation this 'totalitarian' system - 'Stalinism' as they call it.
Both Gorbachev and Yakovlev wrote many books and they gave many interviews in which they frankly expressed their position. That's beyond all doubt Gorby and Yakovlev played against the Soviet system in this game. Do you disagree? Maybe you think they were latent 'stalinists'?
That's why any normal Russian has valid reason to doubt those 'documents' from these guys. Since they were interested 'to debunk Stalinism and totalitarism' they were patently biased.
Foreigners could not understand this sinuosity of modern Russian history. Polish members of this forum always confound (if they are not joking) the old Soviet regime with the present Russia regime although they are antagonistic systems.
Sergey Romanov wrote: That one would miss such an opportunity and go for a relatively mild (in comparison) 20,000 victims is beyond me.
Maybe because this case has significant international importance and was not interesting for an average Russian until Poland demands become too loud. And it looks easy to deal with small figures rather than with millions.
I'm not a 'stalinist' and I think this term is just a label for troublesome opponent and nothing else. I don't love when my country and countrymen are blamed without any trial under the factitious pretext that it was the 'stalinism' that is blamed not Russians and such.
And to make it clear - most my sources on that matter are from 'Voenno-Istorichesky Zhurnal' (Millitary-History Magazin) that I read long before Mukhin wrote his book. As for Mukhin's 'Katynsky detectiv' I would agree that he wrote it in a rather offensive and aggressive style but he is not an historian - he is a publicist. Although many his remarks (cleansed of swearing
) look reasonable.