Soviet Responsibility at Katyn: pro and con

Dmitry · Post by **Dmitry** » 15 Aug 2004 18:38

Sergey Romanov wrote: In order to sort out the post-May 1940 documents and to put some incriminating newspapers, letters etc. in the envelopes the German on the motorcycle should have travelled to some other place than the secret police office, there he should've opened all the envelopes, sorted out all the papers, planted the new ones, closed all the envelopes and travelled to the office. It would take considerable time to do all this and the Poles waiting in the office would notice it.

No problems - they could change those envelopes with previously prepared envelopes contained yesterday's already sorted documents or something like that. Besides Germans had enough time to prepare things before the Red Cross had arrived there.

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 15 Aug 2004 18:46

This thread is starting to seem like an Oliver Stone film.

Rarog · Post by **Rarog** » 15 Aug 2004 19:19

Fredd wrote:
Rarog wrote:Sergey,

Why the Poles had their IDs with them, what do you think?
When the genocide occured noone in Soviet Union thought that ever that soil would fall in German hands. So they don't bother to remove these ID's. What for - personals of victims were established, so what would be a point in removing it.

The point is why they bothered TO RETURN those IDs to the Poles. Inmates in the SU (like in every country) weren't supposed to carry any documents...

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 15 Aug 2004 19:24

Dmitry wrote:

No problems - they could change those envelopes with previously prepared envelopes contained yesterday's already sorted documents or something like that.

It is possible, of course, that monkeys may fly out of someone's *ss, but it is improbable. So it is here: if Germans were so shy about the Poles being there and had to hide their faking activities from them, why did they let them to participate at all? Surely, an international Comission alone would suit their purposes. They never used the Polish report anyway. And of course you ignored my point about the newspapers.

Besides Germans had enough time to prepare things before the Red Cross had arrived there.

And what do you mean by that? What did they prepare and how? If you mean that they opened the graves, planted the documents and buried the bodies again, this won't wash - the bodies in the graves were glued to each other, which means that they were untouched.

xcalibur wrote:

This thread is starting to seem like an Oliver Stone film.

Agreed. As usual, deniers ignore the strong points and harp at the edges.

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 15 Aug 2004 19:28

Inmates in the SU (like in every country) weren't supposed to carry any documents

They were POWs, not inmates. Can you prove that POWs were not supposed to have any documents?

Dmitry · Post by **Dmitry** » 15 Aug 2004 19:51

Sergey Romanov wrote: And of course you ignored my point about the newspapers.

No. My second phrase was about that:

Besides Germans had enough time to prepare things before the Red Cross had arrived there.

Sergey Romanov wrote: And what do you mean by that? What did they prepare and how? If you mean that they opened the graves, planted the documents and buried the bodies again, this won't wash - the bodies in the graves were glued to each other, which means that they were untouched.

It ain't necessarily so. They could puddle the graves with tanks for example. And bodies would glued again. I see nothing unrealistic there.

Rarog · Post by **Rarog** » 15 Aug 2004 19:54

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Inmates in the SU (like in every country) weren't supposed to carry any documents
They were POWs, not inmates. Can you prove that POWs were not supposed to have any documents?

Does it mean you know that POWs were supposed to have IDs? If so, please make your point, as I'm not interested to play any games.

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 15 Aug 2004 20:02

Does it mean you know that POWs were supposed to have IDs? If so, please make your point, as I'm not interested to play any games.

Sorry, it was your "argument" (well, kind of). If you insist that they couldn't have those IDs, prove that.

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 15 Aug 2004 20:12

Dmitry wrote:

It ain't necessarily so. They could puddle the graves with tanks for example. And bodies would glued again. I see nothing unrealistic there.

Your scenario becomes more fantastic with each step. Now we have tanks there. What next? Nazi UFOs?

If they were bulldozing them with tanks, they would just get lots of smashed corpses. The corpses were glued because once there was a corpse liquid (dunno how to translate it properly) between them. It dried long ago (that's why they were stuck to each other) and tanks simply wouldn't help.

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 15 Aug 2004 20:16

Dmitry wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote: And of course you ignored my point about the newspapers.
No. My second phrase was about that:

Besides Germans had enough time to prepare things before the Red Cross had arrived there.

Sergey Romanov wrote: And what do you mean by that? What did they prepare and how? If you mean that they opened the graves, planted the documents and buried the bodies again, this won't wash - the bodies in the graves were glued to each other, which means that they were untouched.
It ain't necessarily so. They could puddle the graves with tanks for example. And bodies would glued again. I see nothing unrealistic there.

Say what? So let me get this straight: You're saying the bodies could be removed from the graves, replaced, and then driven over with a tank to "re-glue" them together?

Son, have you ever seen what happens to a body that is run over by a tank?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 15 Aug 2004 20:23

I think the argument for Soviet culpability has been pretty well set forth. Can the readers get an overview of the argument that the Soviet Union did not kill those folks, and an alternative theory of how those Polish POWs happened to end up in mass graves? And if it's not asking too much, could we get some evidence to support that point of view?

Rarog · Post by **Rarog** » 15 Aug 2004 20:49

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Does it mean you know that POWs were supposed to have IDs? If so, please make your point, as I'm not interested to play any games.
Sorry, it was your "argument" (well, kind of). If you insist that they couldn't have those IDs, prove that.

In other words, you can't "prove" (btw, it's a trial here) that they could have IDs? Sounds very interesting...

Dmitry · Post by **Dmitry** » 15 Aug 2004 21:01

Sergey Romanov wrote:Your scenario becomes more fantastic with each step. Now we have tanks there. What next? Nazi UFOs?

Nazi had no tanks! That's your idea?

xcalibur wrote:Son, have you ever seen what happens to a body that is run over by a tank?

Are you kidding, daddy? You wish me to describe technical details?
Yes, bury pile of bodies again, lay something (boards) on the grave and run over by something heavy. Not so heavy to flatten them though.
I said tank for example. Is that impossible? Don't bodies have stuck togeter if they are compacted.

Who proves that they were glued due to corpse liquid not because they were pressed?

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 15 Aug 2004 21:13

In other words, you can't "prove" (btw, it's a trial here) that they could have IDs? Sounds very interesting...

No, it sounds like you can't prove that there is anything wrong with them having IDs, and, having run out of arguments, try to shift the burden of proof.

Sergey Romanov · Post by **Sergey Romanov** » 15 Aug 2004 21:20

Your scenario becomes more fantastic with each step. Now we have tanks there. What next? Nazi UFOs?
Nazi had no tanks! That's your idea?

No. My idea is that you have introduced too many unnecessary entities, contrary to Occam's principle.

Who proves that they were glued due to corpse liquid not because they were pressed?

To bulldoze them with tanks they should have been sure that they will get the expected result that will fool both the experts and laymen, and not just some smashed bodies. So it's up to you to prove that such an idea would ever enter their minds.