Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by David Thompson » 20 Jun 2020 21:03

Please stay on topic -- the killings at Katyn.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by snpol » 14 Jul 2020 07:27

henryk wrote:
08 May 2020 19:33
https://www.polskieradio.pl/395/7989/Ar ... re-coverup
Polish state history institute slams Russia over Katyn Massacre 'cover-up'
Polskie Radio 08.05.2020 07:00

Poland’s Institute of National Remembrance has lambasted what it described as “a new wave of efforts to cover up the traces of the Katyn crime by the authorities of present-day Russia.”

Jarosław Szarek, head of Poland's Institute of National Remembrance (IPN).Photo: PAP/Darek Delmanowicz
The Polish government-affiliated history institute was reacting after two plaques commemorating the victims of Katyn were reportedly removed from the building of the former regional headquarters of the NKVD, Stalin’s secret police, in the town of Tver, 180 km north-west of Moscow.

It was in Tver (known as Kalinin until 1990) that, in 1940, about 6,000 Polish POWs from the Ostashkov camp were executed, as part of what became known as the Katyn Massacre, the killing of some 22,000 Poles. The bilingual inscription, in Russian and Polish, on one of the plaques read: “In memory of the POWs from the Ostashkov camp killed by the NKVD in Kalinin. A warning to the world.”

At the end of 2019, the regional prosecutor’s office in Tver asked the town authorities to remove the plaques, claiming they had been mounted in violation of regulations. The office also asserted that the inscriptions were not based on documented facts. The head of the Institute of National Remembrance, Jarosław Szarek, has told public broadcaster Polish Radio that the removal of the plaques is part of “a new form of Russia’s historical policy,” adding that in presenting the history of World War II “the Russian authorities are returning to the communist, Soviet-era narrative.” Szarek said that the dismantling of the plaques in tribute to Poles murdered by the NKVD “will not efface the memory of the [Katyn] crime.”

The events in Tver were first reported by Radio Svoboda, which cited local activists who take care of the sites of remembrance of the victims of repression in the town. According to Tvernews.ru, among those who took part in the dismantling of the plaques was one Maxim Kormushkin, an activist of the National-Liberation Movement (NOD), a pro-government organisation that has been repeatedly accused by the independent media of attacks and provocations aimed at opposition leaders.

The Polish embassy in Moscow has been kept informed about the events in Tver.
(mk/gs)
Dismantlings of memorial plaques related to the Katyn massacre in Russia is something that one could expect. I don't approve or support such steps but also I don't approve removal of memorials to the fallen Soviet soldiers in Poland, for those who fought in Poland. Btw, there was a lot of ethnically Polish Soviet fighters. One of them is a brother of my Grandmother. He was wounded while crossing the Vistula river in the Erenthal district near Bydgoszcz and was awarded a medal for courage. In 1925 my Great Grandmother received a paper that she with her 3 children has right for Polish citizenship.
Polish government from my point of view follow wrong line. Only military cemeteries are being held intact. Military memorials, memorial plaques are being removed, dismantled on a regular basis.
So Moscow (I repeat wrongly) is doing exactly the same things. As for the graves of the Katyn victims then they are being held intact. But as for places of alleged or real executions and other places then Russian authorities just mirrors Polish approach.
It's politics, dirty politics.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by snpol » 14 Jul 2020 08:08

David Thompson wrote:
20 Jun 2020 21:03
Please stay on topic -- the killings at Katyn.
I believe that precursors of the Katyn massacre should be regarded as well. One of them is so called the Polish operation of NKVD happened before WW2. Btw, some my Polish relatives in Siberia were executed in 1938 during the operation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Op ... f_the_NKVD
The Polish Operation of the NKVD (Soviet security service) in 1937–1938 was a mass operation of the NKVD carried out in the Soviet Union against Poles (labeled by the Soviets as "agents") during the period of the Great Purge. It was ordered by the Politburo of the Communist Party against the so-called "Polish spies" and customarily interpreted by the NKVD officials as relating to 'absolutely all Poles'.
According to archives of the NKVD, 111,091 Poles and people accused of ties with Poland, were sentenced to death
In the village where my Father was born, 33 (ethnically) Poles were detained and executed. In my previous post I mentioned brother of my Grandmother who fought in Poland in the ranks of the Red army. His Father-in-Law was among the executed.
http://nkvd.tomsk.ru/projects/regional_ ... /Polozovo/
Here you may see Catholic Cross and memorial plate installed in the native village of my Father in Siberia with names of 33 victims.
Note that number of Poles executed during the Polish operation of NKVD was 5 times bigger that estimated number of Katyn massacre victims.
It is essentially important from my point of view to take into account that Polish POWs were regarded by Stalin's regime as just new Soviet citizens. In this context the Katyn massacre was in fact a continuation of the Polish operation of NKVD.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by history1 » 14 Jul 2020 14:42

I wonder about the names on that memorial plate, snpol. Iwan, Michail, Anton, Petr, etc,. are not really what I would consider Polish names.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by snpol » 14 Jul 2020 17:23

history1 wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:42
I wonder about the names on that memorial plate, snpol. Iwan, Michail, Anton, Petr, etc,. are not really what I would consider Polish names.
Now unexisting village of Polozovo in Tomsk area was founded by (landless) settlers from different parts of the Russian Empire 120 years ago. There were about 80 Polish families here but the majority was Russian (Strictly speaking mainly Ukrainian but the Ukrainians that time regarded themselves as Russians). In predominantly Russian environment many Poles adapted their names to Russian equivalents.
(Russian Ivan = Jan (popular Polish name) = John
(Russian) Mikhail = Michal
(Russian) Petr = Piotr
(Russian) Anton = Antoni
My Great Grandfather Ignacy Swarcewicz was born in Wilno area. Now his native village is in Belarus. Name of his Father was Caetan. In Russia this name was unusual. So in papers he was named as Ignatiy Konstantinovich Svartsevich. He took part in the WW1 and was gased by the Germans in 1915 and sent to hospital in Moscow.

Image

https://gwar.mil.ru/heroes/chelovek_gos ... 26page%3D1
----------------------
On the memorial plate you may see two men with surname Swarcewicz. Micewicz Ivan (Jan) is Father-in-Law of brother of my Grandmother.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by history1 » 14 Jul 2020 19:52

Thanks for the explanation, strange only that they gave up their original names. We have in my country and state Burgenland Croats who arrived centuries ago here and still use their original names and language. The same is true for Hungarians living in my state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland_Croats).
But let´s not swift the matter.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by henryk » 14 Jul 2020 20:45

snpol wrote:
14 Jul 2020 07:27
Dismantlings of memorial plaques related to the Katyn massacre in Russia is something that one could expect. I don't approve or support such steps but also I don't approve removal of memorials to the fallen Soviet soldiers in Poland, for those who fought in Poland. Btw, there was a lot of ethnically Polish Soviet fighters. One of them is a brother of my Grandmother. He was wounded while crossing the Vistula river in the Erenthal district near Bydgoszcz and was awarded a medal for courage. In 1925 my Great Grandmother received a paper that she with her 3 children has right for Polish citizenship.
Polish government from my point of view follow wrong line. Only military cemeteries are being held intact. Military memorials, memorial plaques are being removed, dismantled on a regular basis.
So Moscow (I repeat wrongly) is doing exactly the same things. As for the graves of the Katyn victims then they are being held intact. But as for places of alleged or real executions and other places then Russian authorities just mirrors Polish approach.
It's politics, dirty politics.
See the discussion on removing memorials:
viewtopic.php?f=111&t=222346
message #4
Transfer to Borne Sulinowo
#4Post by henryk » June 29th, 2016, 12:18 pm
http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/25940 ... new-museum
Borne Sulinowo is about half way on the line between Szczecin and Gdansk.
Poland plans to transfer Red Army memorials to new museum

Radio Poland 29.06.2016 14:11

Poland is planning to set up an open-air museum of Soviet-era memorials which are being dismantled and removed from locations across the country.

Paweł Ukielski (left). Photo: PAP/Jacek Turczyk

The new display is to be established in Borne Sulinowo, a town in north-western Poland which served as a secret Soviet military base between 1945 and 1992. It was not transferred to Polish jurisdiction until October 1992, several years after the collapse of communism in Poland.

Soviet memorials on Polish soil remain controversial as the liberation of Nazi-occupied Poland by the Red Army towards the end of World War II led to the installation of a Moscow-backed communist regime in Warsaw that endured until 1989. The issue of such monuments sparked sharp exchanges earlier this year between Warsaw and Moscow.

The decision to move so-called memorials of gratitude to the Red Army to Borne Sulinowo was made by Poland’s Institute for National Remembrance. Its deputy head, Paweł Ukielski, told a press conference in Warsaw that Borne Sulinowo, which remained closed to ordinary Poles for decades, is a historically symbolic location and a fitting place for such a display. He said that there are 229 Soviet Army memorials around Poland which could be transferred to the new museum.

Ukielski added that the decision on setting up the Borne Sulinowo display has not been consulted with Russia. “Polish public space is an element of Polish sovereignty and decisions relating to it do not have to be consulted with any of our neighbours.” He added: “There is a Polish-Russian agreement on the preservation of cemeteries and sites of remembrance but it does not cover symbolic ‘memorials of gratitude’.”

According to preliminary plans, the Borne Sulinowo site is to open on 17 September next year, the date when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1939. (mk/pk)

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 14 Jul 2020 22:34

history1 wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:42
I wonder about the names on that memorial plate, snpol. Iwan, Michail, Anton, Petr, etc,. are not really what I would consider Polish names.
Those people were Polish citizens but not Poles (at least according to the racist, by blood categorization), i.e., they were Ukrainians, Belorussians, and at least 438 Jews.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 14 Jul 2020 22:37

snpol wrote:
14 Jul 2020 07:27
I don't approve or support such steps but also I don't approve removal of memorials to the fallen Soviet soldiers in Poland, for those who fought in Poland. Btw, there was a lot of ethnically Polish Soviet fighters.
Although the removed monuments invariably glorified Soviet ideology, the Soviet Army, or the USSR (i.e., abstract concepts symbolizing hate and genocide) - they had nothing to do with soldiers.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by snpol » 15 Jul 2020 22:21

wm wrote:
14 Jul 2020 22:34
history1 wrote:
14 Jul 2020 14:42
I wonder about the names on that memorial plate, snpol. Iwan, Michail, Anton, Petr, etc,. are not really what I would consider Polish names.
Those people were Polish citizens but not Poles (at least according to the racist, by blood categorization), i.e., they were Ukrainians, Belorussians, and at least 438 Jews.
As for the Katyn massacre then of course not all victims were ethnically Polish.
However, and it is my point in this discussion that the Katyn Massacre should be regarded in more wide context, as a part of so called the Polish operation of NKVD directed against Soviet citizens of ethnically Polish descent with more than 100 thousands of executed.
The mentioned memorial plate contains names of Poles from the native village of my Father in Siberia and all of them (without exception) were Roman Catholics and of course Polish speakers. To understand the scale of Stalin's oppressions against ethnically Poles it is sufficient to say that all men (except children and the old) in nearby village of Belostok were arrested and executed.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by snpol » 15 Jul 2020 22:25

henryk wrote:
14 Jul 2020 20:45
snpol wrote:
14 Jul 2020 07:27
Dismantlings of memorial plaques related to the Katyn massacre in Russia is something that one could expect. I don't approve or support such steps but also I don't approve removal of memorials to the fallen Soviet soldiers in Poland, for those who fought in Poland. Btw, there was a lot of ethnically Polish Soviet fighters. One of them is a brother of my Grandmother. He was wounded while crossing the Vistula river in the Erenthal district near Bydgoszcz and was awarded a medal for courage. In 1925 my Great Grandmother received a paper that she with her 3 children has right for Polish citizenship.
Polish government from my point of view follow wrong line. Only military cemeteries are being held intact. Military memorials, memorial plaques are being removed, dismantled on a regular basis.
So Moscow (I repeat wrongly) is doing exactly the same things. As for the graves of the Katyn victims then they are being held intact. But as for places of alleged or real executions and other places then Russian authorities just mirrors Polish approach.
It's politics, dirty politics.
See the discussion on removing memorials:
viewtopic.php?f=111&t=222346
message #4
Transfer to Borne Sulinowo
#4Post by henryk » June 29th, 2016, 12:18 pm
http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/25940 ... new-museum
Borne Sulinowo is about half way on the line between Szczecin and Gdansk.
Poland plans to transfer Red Army memorials to new museum

Radio Poland 29.06.2016 14:11

Poland is planning to set up an open-air museum of Soviet-era memorials which are being dismantled and removed from locations across the country.

Paweł Ukielski (left). Photo: PAP/Jacek Turczyk

The new display is to be established in Borne Sulinowo, a town in north-western Poland which served as a secret Soviet military base between 1945 and 1992. It was not transferred to Polish jurisdiction until October 1992, several years after the collapse of communism in Poland.

Soviet memorials on Polish soil remain controversial as the liberation of Nazi-occupied Poland by the Red Army towards the end of World War II led to the installation of a Moscow-backed communist regime in Warsaw that endured until 1989. The issue of such monuments sparked sharp exchanges earlier this year between Warsaw and Moscow.

The decision to move so-called memorials of gratitude to the Red Army to Borne Sulinowo was made by Poland’s Institute for National Remembrance. Its deputy head, Paweł Ukielski, told a press conference in Warsaw that Borne Sulinowo, which remained closed to ordinary Poles for decades, is a historically symbolic location and a fitting place for such a display. He said that there are 229 Soviet Army memorials around Poland which could be transferred to the new museum.

Ukielski added that the decision on setting up the Borne Sulinowo display has not been consulted with Russia. “Polish public space is an element of Polish sovereignty and decisions relating to it do not have to be consulted with any of our neighbours.” He added: “There is a Polish-Russian agreement on the preservation of cemeteries and sites of remembrance but it does not cover symbolic ‘memorials of gratitude’.”

According to preliminary plans, the Borne Sulinowo site is to open on 17 September next year, the date when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1939. (mk/pk)
So Polish authorities have no cause to complain if Moscow would collect all memorial plates related to Katyn massacre to hide them in a remote museum.
I only hope that politicians will be one day more wise than usually.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by snpol » 16 Jul 2020 05:46

history1 wrote:
14 Jul 2020 19:52
Thanks for the explanation, strange only that they gave up their original names. We have in my country and state Burgenland Croats who arrived centuries ago here and still use their original names and language. The same is true for Hungarians living in my state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland_Croats).
But let´s not swift the matter.
A few years ago I returned from Budapest to Vienna by car through Sopron and thus briefly visited Austrian state of Burgenland, that was in Austro-Hungarian Empire a part of Hungary. It was subjected to Hungarization. As for names of Burgenland Croats then I would like to quote your source
Names are often written according to Hungarian orthography, due to the Magyarisation policies during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Almost all Burgenland Croats are fluent in German.
So hardly it is a big surprise to you that Poles in Russia sometimes have names written in Russian orthography. Also it is important to take into account inter-ethnical distance (I hope that you understand the meaning of this probably unexisting term). Inter-ethnical distances between the German-Austrians, the Hungarians, the Croats are big enough. But inter-ethnical distance between the Croats and the Serbs is much shorter due to, in fact, common language, similar habits, style of life. It is despite quite uneasy relations between the peoples.
There were historically uneasy relations between the Poles and the Russians (along with Ukrainians). But inter-ethnical distance is not that huge. So assimilation processes especially in remote parts of Russia were fast enough. Yes size of Russia plays significant role. By contrast Austrian Croats live quite close to Croatia.
In Russia the Poles could became Russians within just 1-2 generations especially in mixed families. Let's recall the USA or Canada where descendants of the Poles frequently don't speak Polish and use names of British origin and only Polish surnames point to their Polish origin.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by history1 » 16 Jul 2020 10:15

snpol wrote:
16 Jul 2020 05:46
[...] A few years ago I returned from Budapest to Vienna by car through Sopron and thus briefly visited Austrian state of Burgenland, that was in Austro-Hungarian Empire a part of Hungary. It was subjected to Hungarization. As for names of Burgenland Croats then I would like to quote your source
Names are often written according to Hungarian orthography, due to the Magyarisation policies during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Almost all Burgenland Croats are fluent in German.
So hardly it is a big surprise to you that Poles in Russia sometimes have names written in Russian orthography.[...]
Wikipedia isn´t always correct, my primary goal was to show you since how long time Burgenland Croats do live here. It´s neither correct that only almost all Burgenland Croats are fluent in German as all of them get thaught German in kindergartens, schools, etc.. But of particular importance is that they have a right to be thaught their native language, use them in offices, schools, town signs, official buildings, etc...
Their rights go so far that officials must use legal/professional translators when the petitioner did use eg. Burgenland Croatian and he/she himself is not familiar with that language! That means that a eg. Burgenland Croat eg. living in the town of Parndorf (it´s valid for all recognised Austrian minorities) can use either Geman or his native tongue when contacting eg. an office in Vienna and they are by law requested to respond in the same language (and in German additionaly). Even when the applicant does speak German fluently!
https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/european-for ... inorities/

https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassu ... r=10000602

And when you check out phone books of those villages you´ll see and recognise that they are mostly using Croatian spelling of names, eg. Murglics, Jurkovics, Kostolics, etc.. Of course some did addopt to the Austrian/German language when Burgenland became part of Austria in 1921 and so Kostolics changed into Kostolits. One can find even both variations within the same village and family.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2020 11:09

snpol wrote:
15 Jul 2020 22:25
So Polish authorities have no cause to complain if Moscow would collect all memorial plates related to Katyn massacre to hide them in a remote museum.
I only hope that politicians will be one day more wise than usually.
The memorial plates related to Katyn are dedicated to victims, but the removed monuments to the Soviet oppressors, and not to Russian soldiers - victims of the Soviet regime too.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by history1 » 16 Jul 2020 11:10

snpol wrote:
16 Jul 2020 05:46
[...] Also it is important to take into account inter-ethnical distance (I hope that you understand the meaning of this probably unexisting term). Inter-ethnical distances between the German-Austrians, the Hungarians, the Croats are big enough.
Do not confuse Burgenland -Croats with Croats. The latter arrived here as guest worker/foreign worker or as refugees and are NOT Burgenland Croats. Nor do I see any ethnical distances from the former. You need to realise and understand that eg. Burgenland-Hungarians are a recognised minority in my state and can NOT be confused with nowadays Hungarians which are everywhere in Burgenland. They live here, work here and die here. But they are Hungarian citizens not Austrians like Burgenland Croats or Burgenland Hungarians.
snpol wrote:
16 Jul 2020 05:46
But inter-ethnical distance between the Croats and the Serbs is much shorter due to, in fact, common language, similar habits, style of life. It is despite quite uneasy relations between the peoples. [...]
They do not have a common language, Serbian is not Serbo-Croatian. I worked with both and theyself claim it´s not the same. Both are Slvavic languages and that´s why they understand each other. But that´s no wonder Poles do also understand Russian or Czech and even I as Austrian speaking Polish and Slovakian only as third and fourth language do understand many parts in Russian conversation and do understand Russian text when I transfered it into our alphabet before.

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