Fun with DIESEL GAS-VANS at Krasnodar and Kharkov...

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Scott Smith
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PRAVDA MEANS TRUTH...

#61

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Apr 2002, 18:51

Yes, it's very interesting. No meaningful quantitfication whatsoever.

All bodies found in mass-graves are the result of an extermination policy of Soviet citizens, whether the bodies are clothed or not, in uniform or not, young or old, male of female.

With the exception of those found with bullets in the back of their heads, which could be mercy killings from the hospital, they all look like ordinary war deaths.

And guess what--war deaths often affect civilians. In addition, here carbon monoxide poisonings necessarily have to be the result of gassings, as if here in the Twilight Zone, CO deaths are not normal for fires and bombardments. And all charred corpses are necessaily the result of trying to hide the evidence. Interesting, that there is plenty of evidence anyway.

Yes, we have confirmation: the diesel gas-vans AND the carbon monoxide poisonings. Who would doubt it? Certainly not good people.

Probably the Soviet attorneys and medico-legal experts did not know of Holtz and Elliott's 1941 data dismembering this diesel/carbon monoxide hypothesis.

But that's okay, we can use the same Greuelpropaganda for the Nuremberg trials, and this time the victims can be Jews. No confirmation yet on the pedal-powered brain-bashing machines...

You just have to Believe.

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Roberto
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#62

Post by Roberto » 05 Apr 2002, 19:35

Yes, it's very interesting. No meaningful quantitfication whatsoever.
I wonder what Smith means by a "meaningful quantification" and if he can show us one that lives up to his standards. The mathematics of the body count are not contained in the summary report, which probably means that you’ll have to go to the attachments not published by Hutchinson to find these mathematics, not that they don’t exist. What becomes obvious from the report is that the commission took the trouble of establishing the plausibility of the death toll indicated by the defendants on the basis of the contents of the mass graves investigated. The order of magnitude being in line with what results from contemporary German documents in regard to the events investigated or similar events, the commission’s conclusions stand a good chance of being accurate.
All bodies found in mass-graves are the result of an extermination policy of Soviet citizens, whether the bodies are clothed or not, in uniform or not, young or old, male of female.
Those in uniform were prisoners of war, those not in uniform were civilians.
With the exception of those found with bullets in the back of their heads, which could be mercy killings from the hospital, they all look like ordinary war deaths.
What do “ordinary war deaths” look like, Mr. Smith? Deaths by “poisoning with carbon monoxide, shooting, burning, and killing with blunt, hard and heavy instruments”, perhaps? Are “ordinary war deaths” stripped naked before being thrown into mass graves? Quite apart from the fact that what becomes apparent from the physical traces was most probably corroborated by eyewitness accounts and the depositions of defendants on which the 33,000 figure considered by the commission as “undoubtedly too low” seems to have been based. All in all, nothing there that is out of line with what becomes apparent from reports on similar events that the killers submitted to their superiors, some of which I quoted in my last post.
And guess what--war deaths often affect civilians. In addition, here carbon monoxide poisonings necessarily have to be the result of gassings, as if here in the Twilight Zone, CO deaths are not normal for fires and bombardments.
Yeah, sure. Any large-scale air bombardments in the Kharkov area involving a great number of civilian dead that Smith can tell us about?
And all charred corpses are necessaily the result of trying to hide the evidence.
To the extent that there is converging eyewitness evidence in that direction, I see no problem with such conclusion. And what would be the alternative? Burning war dead to avoid epidemics, perhaps? Show us where in the area that was performed on a major scale, Reverend.
Interesting, that there is plenty of evidence anyway.
Which indicates that the killers were in a hurry and/or didn’t apply the right methods. Big deal.
Yes, we have confirmation: the diesel gas-vans AND the carbon monoxide poisonings.
Not that it matters, but where in the report is anything said about gas vans with diesel engines?
Who would doubt it? Certainly not good people.
Who would make a fuss about such an irrelevant minor detail? Certainly only True Believers trying to deny or explain away what does not fit into their ideological bubble.
Probably the Soviet attorneys and medico-legal experts did not know of Holtz and Elliott's 1941 data dismembering this diesel/carbon monoxide hypothesis.
I don’t see them having written anything about diesels at all. If they did, we have two alternatives which I will generously consider equally probable:

a) they were wrong in regard to this irrelevant minor detail for whatever reason;

b) the Reverend has a screw loose and/or has been lying to us all this time.
But that's okay, we can use the same Greuelpropaganda for the Nuremberg trials, and this time the victims can be Jews.
I’ve got news for you, Reverend: the Nuremberg trials had their own collection, introduction and assessment of evidence and didn’t just rely on previous assessments and judgments.
No confirmation yet on the pedal-powered brain-bashing machines...
Where does the report say anything about this bizarre but not wholly improbable torture device?
You just have to Believe.
Exactly, Reverend. You just have to BELIEVE that the Soviet medical commission sucked their report out of their thumbs instead of thoroughly assessing the physical evidence, that eyewitness were lying and that defendants were tortured into stating what their interrogators wanted to hear. Even if there is no evidence whatsoever to such manipulations, even if the evidence collected and assessed by the Soviets is strongly reminiscent of involuntary evidence produced by the killers themselves, such as Becker’s letter to Rauff of 26 May 1942, the Einsatzgruppen Operational Situation Reports, the diary entries of German soldiers involved in the killings and Rosenberg’s letter to Keitel complaining about the mistreatment and mortality of Soviet prisoners of war. You just have to believe that, whatever the evidence to the contrary, the Soviets just made up the whole thing and the dead they found were “war dead”. I would even say that the term “just” is wrong in that sentence: You absolutely have to believe, to have strong and unwavering Faith, because it is not through observing, thinking and following the evidence where it leads that you get to such convenient “Revisionist” conclusions. Faith is what it takes, nothing else will do.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.”
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10


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QUE WHAT?

#63

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Apr 2002, 10:37

I think you need to reconsider you stance, Mr. Believer. You obviously don't know anything about war and bombardments near the battlefield. The soviets had excellent artillery and good tactical air-support. The Germans fired weapons too. The U.S. Army has buried a lot of "collateral damage," and by your logic all were deliberately Genocided. They died of things like blunt traumas, smoke inhalation, burns, the usual, sometimes even disease and malnutrition, though that is less a factor nowadays than it once was.

It is obvious that the Soviets presented a smokescreen, which, while impressive, proves absolutely nothing except that the Germans cannot successfully practice necromancy. I guess they should have mailed the Soviet dead back to Stalin in Red Cross packages with full Russian Orthodox rites.

Now, Here:

1) We have the gas-vans identified as diesels.
2) We have the murder-van deaths identified as being caused by CO.
3) We have a reputable gas table which shows no CO from diesels except under heavy load.

Care to resolve this logic, Mr. Believer? The simplest answer is that the whole thing is bloody Greuelpropaganda.

But no matter, the laws of physics are irrelevant to our Moral Certainties.
Nazis Baaad--We Goood...
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Roberto
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#64

Post by Roberto » 08 Apr 2002, 11:54

I think you need to reconsider you stance, Mr. Believer.
Reverend Smith is again indulging in monologues.
You obviously don't know anything about war and bombardments near the battlefield. The soviets had excellent artillery and good tactical air-support. The Germans fired weapons too. The U.S. Army has buried a lot of "collateral damage," and by your logic all were deliberately Genocided. They died of things like blunt traumas, smoke inhalation, burns, the usual, sometimes even disease and malnutrition, though that is less a factor nowadays than it once was.
Blah, blah, blah. People shot at close range with infantry weapons lying all together in a ditch are not likely to be victims of combat actions, especially if shot in the back of the head or if the damage done to their bodies otherwise presents a pattern different from the one that is typical for combat wounds:
Losses of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War
G.F. Krivosheev et al, Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century


Pages 96/97

Irrecoverable Losses
Killed in action, died during casualty evacuation: 5,187,190
Died in hospital of wound 1,100,327
Died of disease, as result of accident, etc. (non-combat losses) 541,920
Missing in action, POWs, including unrecorded casualties
from first months 4,455,620
Total 11,285,057

Sick and wounded (including those evacuated to hospitals)
Wounded, concussion and burn cases 15,205,592
Sick 3,047,675
Frostbite cases 90,881
Total 18,344,148

Page 89

An analysis of 14 million case histories of wounded personnel has revealed information on the incidence of wounds to different parts of the body. See Table 63

Table 63. Incidence of Wounds to Different Parts of the Body

Part of the body; No. of men; percentage of total

Skull; 773,500; 5.4 %
Eyes; 214,861; 1.5 %
Face; 501,342; 3.5 %
Neck; 157,565; 1.1 %
Chest; 1,289,166; 9 %
Stomach; 444,046; 3.1 %
Spine; 143,241; 1 %
Pelvis; 630,259; 4.4 %
Genitals; 28,648; 0.2 %
Upper limbs; 5,042,074; 35.2 %
Lower limbs; 5,099,369; 35.6 %
Total; 14,324,071; 100 %


As to carbon monoxide poisoning, it is not exactly a cause of death that is typical of modern war. Carbon monoxide is the product of incomplete combustion of flammables and usually occurs where a fire is burning with insufficient ventilation. The predominant cause of death in German air raid shelters during Allied bombing was not carbon monoxide poisoning, but suffocation:
Herbert Schwan/Rolf Steininger
Besiegt, besetzt, geteilt
1979 Stalling Verlag GmbH, Oldenburg-München-Hamburg

Page 157

Next to the empty window holes only black spots of soot give an idea of the force of the flames which came out of them after the attacks.
Out of every one hundred dead of the bombing war during the burning of the German cities an average of 15 died through explosive bombs, 15 from burning and 70 from suffocation. About 20 percent of the victims are children up to 16 years of age.
Translation from the German original is mine, as is emphasis. Needless to say, the Kharkov area never saw the kind of air bombing that would have led to large-scale dying in air raid shelters. Or can the Reverend show us otherwise?

So carbon monoxide poisoning is a clear indication of foul play – especially if you have witnesses to killing in gas vans and documents like Becker’s letter to Rauff of 26 May 1942 describing how, once the levers were properly adjusted, death was induced by carbon monoxide poisoning as intended and not by suffocation.
It is obvious that the Soviets presented a smokescreen, which, while impressive, proves absolutely nothing except that the Germans cannot successfully practice necromancy. I guess they should have mailed the Soviet dead back to Stalin in Red Cross packages with full Russian Orthodox rites.
The only thing obvious is that the poor Reverend only sees what he would desperately like to believe. Believe it or not, the findings of the Soviet investigation of the Kharkov crimes are largely confirmed by contemporary German reports and diary entries and the deposition of witnesses before German courts. Let’s just follow the evidence where it leads:
There had been 900.000 people in Kharkov before the war, but when the war spread to Ukraine, and the refugees started pouring in from the west, this figure swelled to 1,200,000 to 1,300,000. Later, in October 1941, with the Germans approaching, the evacuation of Kharkov began in real earnest. Most of the larger plants were more or less successfully evacuated, among them the great Tractor Plant, with nearly all its workers. By the time the Germans came, some 700,000 people had left the city. Now there were only 350,000. What had happened to the rest?
According to the Russian authorities, the disappearance of half the population of October 1941 is accounted for as follows: it has been established that 120,000 people, mostly young people, had been deported as slaves to Germany; some 70,000 or 80,000 had died of hunger, cold and privation, especially during the terrible winter of 1941-2; some 30,000 had been killed by the Germans, among them some 16,000 Jews (men, women and children) who had remained behind in Kharkov; the rest had fled to the villages. Various checks I made in the next days suggested that the figure for deaths from hunger, et cetera, was slightly, but not greatly, exaggerated; so too was the figure for non-Jews shot, but the figure for the Jews was correct. On the other hand, the figure for slave-labor deportations was, if anything, an underestimate.
Source of quote:

Alexander Werth, Russia at War 1941-1945, 2000 Caroll & Graf Publishers New York, pages 607/608.
[...]Collecting Jews in Kharkov
Within the scope of S.K. 4 a the extensive preparations required within the scope of the general collection of the Jews of Kharkov were carried out at an accelerated pace. The priority was to find an appropriate area for the evacuation of the Jews in close co-ordination with the quarters service of the city.
An area was chosen where the Jews could be accommodated in the barracks of a labor settlement. On 14.12.1941 a proclamation by the city commander to the Jews of Kharkov appeared wherein they were called upon to move to the settlement described in the proclamation until 16.12.1941. The evacuation of the Jews was carried out without incidents except for some looting that took place on the march of the Jews to their new quarters and in which almost exclusively Ukrainians took part. A numeric overview if the Jews collected so far in the evacuation is not yet available. At the same time preparations for the shootings of the Jews are taking place. 305 Jews who spread rumors unfavorable to the Wehrmacht were immediately shot.[...]
Source of quote:

Operational Situation Report USSR No. 164 of 4.2.1942
Bundesarchiv R58/217
[...]According to incomplete data in the months of December 1941 and January 1942 in the proximity of the Rogan works, eight kilometers away from Kharkov, in the so-called “Drobizk Ravine”, over 15 000 Jews, inhabitants of the city of Kharkov, were shot. These monstrous crimes against the peaceful population are confirmed by the depositions of witnesses, the forensic medical report and other documentary material. [...]
On 14 December 1941 the German military commander of the city of Kharkov issued an order, according to which the whole Jewish population was to move to the city periphery within two days, into the barracks of the works of a machine factory. In the order it was stated that people who did not follow this order would be shot. Thus several days later a crowd of many thousands of elder people, women and children was moving in the direction of the resettlement site through the streets of the city. As it was forbidden to walk through the city after 16ºº hours, but many of those to be resettled were still on their way at this time, the movement stopped. The people spent the night on the street, under open sky, in icy frost. Due to this many of them died already on the way. [...]
Source of quote:

Protocol of the Extraordinary State Commission For The City Of Kharkov To Investigate The Crimes There Committed, 5.9.1943
ZStdLJV, 4 AR-Z-269/60, collection of documents, pages 164-169, quote pages 164 and following

[ZStdLJV = Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung Nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen, Central Office of the Judicial Administrations of the Federal States for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes, Ludwigsburg, Germany]
[...] It was in the middle of December 1941, when I spent several weeks in Kharkov. I still know exactly today that it was on 15.12.41 when I saw in Kharkov how a trek several kilometers long of Jews in long rows with handcars and luggage moved from the city eastwards to the tractor factory. The tractor factory is about 15 km away from the city center. Among the Jews there were men, women and children. Some cars were drawn by small horses who sometimes broke down under their load. On the cars there were sometimes little children, women and sick people sitting on the luggage. The cold was about 15 degrees [centigrade] below zero. I watched the Jews passing by for a full hour and still the trek didn’t end. I estimate the number of Jews who on this day were led from Kharkov to the tractor factory at ca. 15 000 persons.
I still recall that the trek was secluded and guarded by uniformed men. I cannot tell anymore today, however, whether these were members of the SS or Ukrainian auxiliary police in uniform. I didn’t observe any mistreatment of the Jews during this. When on the next day I drove in my car from Kharkov to Tshugev, I used the same road that the trek of Jews had used on the previous day. On the left and right side of the street I repeatedly saw corpses that were from the trek of the Jews. Whether these Jews had die from mistreatment or shooting or from exhaustion I cannot tell. The corpses lay there abandoned and nobody cared about them.
The reason why I know exactly that the Jews were led to the tractor factory on 15.12.41 is that at that time there were posters in German and Russian language hanging everywhere in the city, on which the Jews were called upon to gather at a certain place of the city in order to be taken away. I no longer know today what service had issued these posters. But I still remember exactly that 15.12.1941 was mentioned as the day of gathering. [...]
Source of quote:

Deposition of Phillip F, former member of the 297th Infantry Division, on 23 March 1961
HHStAW, 631 a, 1856, pages 223-227, quote page 225 and following.

[HHStAW = Public Prosecutor’s Office of the City of Hamburg]
[...] In my opinion the executions of Jews at Kharkov took place at the beginning of the year 1942. At least I never was present at such an execution before. The Jews in Kharkov had been gathered in a ghetto somewhat outside the city and were guarded by us. One day, it was certainly after Christmas 1941, I was commanded to an area seclusion also outside the city of Kharkov. Under what leadership I was then I no longer know. We were taken to hilly terrain where we had to form a huge seclusion ring that the civilian population was not allowed to enter. Into this area the Jews from the ghetto were taken with trucks. The Jews had to undress and to lie down nearby or right inside crevices in the earth. The crevices were natural ones and not tank ditches or other dug-outs. In these pits the Jews were shot by the SD. The number of Jews shot in this area is not known to me, but I think that it was a larger number because the shootings lasted several days. I didn’t see members of the police being part of the execution detachments.[...]
Source of quote:

Deposition of Karl G., former member of police battalion 314, 9 November 1964
HHStAW, 631a, 1868, page 2551-2555, quote page 2553
[...] With a truck and several passenger cars taking the leaders we drove out of the city in the direction of the tractor factory. About 5-10 km after the tractor factory we stopped in an open area. Close to the execution site there was an anti-aircraft gun emplacement. The Jews were already at the place. There were members of our detachment present who were guarding the Jews. The shooting of the Jews was carried out in a ravine. It was a crevice which went up to the middle of a larger hill.
I was ordered to the execution detachment. The execution detachment with a strength of 10 men entered the crevice that went about 20 meters inside the mountain. The Jews were led inside in groups of 20-25 people and had to lay down on the ground. The were shot in the neck with machine pistols. The shooting didn’t last long, approximately 1 ½ hours. The whole procedure lasted longer because we were constantly fired at by Russian planes. Due to this fire a number of these Jews were already killed. A member of the detachment was also wounded by the fire. The detachment which had to do the shooting was not relieved during the execution. The rising walls were then blown up onto the corpses.
As far as I know, however, more Jews were liquidated in Kharkov than are mentioned in the Operational Situation Report. The ensuing executions were no longer carried out by shooting but by using a gas van. This van, which had already been used in Poltava, was also used at Kiev and thereafter also at Kharkov.[...]
Source of quote:

Deposition of Viktor T., former member of Sonderkommando 4 a, 25 June 1960
ZStdLJV, 4AR-Z 269/60, Volume 1, page 1-18, quote page 16 and following.

The previous five quotes I translated from:

Verbrechen der Wehrmacht
Dimensionen des Vernichtungskrieges 1941-1944
Ausstellungskatalog

Pages 182 - 185
In the last days of December 1941 and at the beginning of January 1942 the gas vans were used to annihilate the Jews of Kharkov. Three members of SK 4 a stated that in these executions there was also at least one gas van in operation. The Jews were loaded up at the tractor factory and gassed on the way to the execution site. (StA Darmstadt, AZ: Ks 1/67 (AZ. ZSL: 204 AR-Z 269/60, Volume XI, pages 2390 and following)).

[StA Darmstadt = Public Prosecutor’s Office of the city of Darmstadt]

One of these eyewitnesses testified as follows about the use of one gas van:

“Before the Jews had already been accommodated in a ghetto on the periphery of Kharkov, in buildings similar to barracks of the labor service which were guarded by the order police. I estimate the total number of Jews collected at about 10 000. The shootings were carried out in the same way as in Kiev.
The gas van was in operation at the same time. About 30 persons were transported in it. As far as I know those inside the gas vans were killed by exhaust streaming in. As far as I know the driver of the gas van was Oberscharführer Findeisen with someone at his side. I myself only saw the gas van from the outside. It looked like a huge box van.” (as above, volume II page 469)

After the great action there were still smaller executions in Kharkov. The victims were usually Jews who had remained hidden; gas vans were used to clear out prisons. (as above, volume I, page 345, volume III, page 571, volume IV, page 735, volume VII, page 1372, volume XXXI, page 19).
The witness Willi Friedrich, leader of the 3rd platoon of the 2nd company of the 3rd police battalion, was each time ordered to the seclusion of the prison area and the unloading site. He stated the following:

“The fact is, however, that about in the period between February and May 1942, at the order of Blobel or his successor Dr. Weinmann, I had to do seclusion service with my men for the use of the gas van. As far as I remember there were five to six such assignments, which repeated themselves about every three weeks. I cannot say where the gas van I mentioned was kept. I remember, however, that I saw the gas van several times at the Kharkov prison. I was ordered to go there with my men to form a seclusion line outside the prison. The van drove into the prison backwards, and sometimes I also saw how Russian civilians, men as well as women, were loaded onto it. The gas van looked like a huge furniture transportation van. The driver of the van was one Findeisen, who also belonged to SK 4 a. ” (ebenda, Bd. V, Bl. 777)

After the liberation of Kharkov the Soviet authorities managed to detain some of those responsible for the murders; in 1943 a public trial began Kharkov. On 19 December the press department of the diplomatic service distributed a communication by Reuter from Moscow with a report about the trial. Three Germans, one of them the deputy commander of the Kharkov Gestapo, Hans Rietz, were mentioned by their names therein:

“The accusation against the three Germans was that during the temporary occupation of the city of Kharkov this year they had taken part in the brutal mass extermination of peaceful Soviet citizens by means of gas vans and other methods” (Archive of the Diplomatic Service Signature K-206638).

Einsatzkommando 5 was dissolved as a mobile special unit at the end of 1941. Some parts of the unit were sent as reinforcements of the security police to Rovno, Shitomir and other places; the remaining 25 people worked at the headquarters of the Commander of the Security Police in Kiev.
The above I translated from:

Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, pages 94/95

As to one of the accused at the Soviet Kharkov trial, the deputy commander of the Kharkov Gestapo, didn’t the Reverend once tell us that the accused had been members of a heroic SS armored division? I wonder if that was meant to be “comic relief” or if it was just another of the Reverend’s lies.
Now, Here:

1) We have the gas-vans identified as diesels.
Where, Reverend? Show us again, please. If so, the worst it could mean would be a mistake of observation or assessment in regard to an irrelevant minor detail. Big deal considering the conclusive evidence that, whatever the type of engine was, thousands of people were killed on the outskirts of Kharkov in gas vans and by other methods, don’t you think so, Reverend?
2) We have the murder-van deaths identified as being caused by CO.
Quite in line with what Becker wrote in the last paragraph of his letter to Rauff dated 26 May 1942, which means that either the engines of the vans were gasoline engines and the Soviets, if they identified them as diesel engines, somehow got it wrong, or that the Reverend has been trying to sell us a big fat lie all this time. As I already said, I’ll generously consider both alternatives to be equally probable.
3) We have a reputable gas table which shows no CO from diesels except under heavy load.
If you read it with a True Believer’s eyes and ignore other factors that clearly become apparent from the table and were essential in the words of the authors, namely the fuel supply, certainly so.
Care to resolve this logic, Mr. Believer?
Not being a Believer like the Reverend, I can resolve all alleged discrepancies by simple observation and logical thinking, see above. Not being blinded by fanaticism, I can also clearly see the utter irrelevance of the Reverend’s contentions.
The simplest answer is that the whole thing is bloody Greuelpropaganda.
The simplest answer for the True Believer, but not a logical and convincing answer, as explained. For a classic example of “Greuelpropaganda”, see below.
But no matter, the laws of physics are irrelevant to our Moral Certainties.
Smith has just brilliantly described the attitude of True Believers like Mr. Berg and himself, who either make a bloody fuss about irrelevant minor issues or twist the laws of physics or do both in support of the “moral certainties” they piously adhere to, the certainties that what is not convenient for their ideology to have happened can never have happened.
But no matter, the laws of physics are irrelevant to our Moral Certainties.
Nazis Baaad--We Goood...
:roll:

Image

Nice picture. It shows the Reverend’s flock, doesn’t it? I think, however, that a more appropriate picture of Smith et al would be the one shown at the end of this post.

Now to “Greuelpropaganda”:

i) According to a 1962 investigation by the West German government, a total of 593,000 people – local civilians, refugees from the Eastern territories, soldiers, policemen and foreign laborers and prisoners of war – were killed by Allied bombing in Germany during World War II.

ii) According to the above quoted passage from Schwan/Steininger’s book:
Out of every one hundred dead of the bombing war during the burning of the German cities an average of 15 died through explosive bombs, 15 from burning and 70 from suffocation. About 20 percent of the victims are children up to 16 years of age.
iii) In absolute numbers, we thus have the following:

Total of dead 593.000
Explosive bombs 88.950
Burning 88.950
Suffocation 415.100
Children up to 16 118.600

Now read this statement by Smith’s Uncle Freddy:
Even if I and the other revisionists, or deniers - take your pick - are wrong about the Holocaust, there is still no reason for the victors of World War II or Jews to wear any mantel of moral righteousness. If the Nazis had murdered millions of innocent people in gas chambers that certainly would have been a great and deplorable crime - but, it would still have been humane compared to what the Allies actually did during World War II. The US and Great Britain murdered millions of innocent people by quite literally roasting them to death. The Jewish involvement in those crimes, especially the nuclear bombing of Japan, are as deep as anyone's.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... nt-of-berg

Emphasis is mine.

Now this, apart from a collection of filthy lies, is what I would call Greuelpropaganda par excellence.

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