Are reprisals always war crimes?

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Andy H
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#16

Post by Andy H » 02 Sep 2004, 20:45

J Chan wrote:
because it was the FTP bolsheviks were indirectly responsible for the destruction of Oradour Sur Glane by their barbaric ways of kidnapping German officers instead of come out in open and fight a pitch battle like any other honorable soldiers...
What do you mean "Barbaric ways of kidnapping"?.

I dont see kidnapping per see as Barbaric in any way shape or form.

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#17

Post by Panzermahn » 03 Sep 2004, 10:02

I dont see kidnapping per see as Barbaric in any way shape or form.
So, Andy, kidnapping per se isn't barbaric for you, eh? :x


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#18

Post by Andy H » 03 Sep 2004, 11:21

No, not in the context in which were discussing it-wartime and the kidnapping of military personnel

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#19

Post by Panzermahn » 03 Sep 2004, 11:45

No, not in the context in which were discussing it-wartime and the kidnapping of military personnel

Andy

CHAPTER I
Means of Injuring the Enemy,
Sieges, and bombardments

Art. 23.
In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -

To employ poison or poisoned weapons;

To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;

To kill or wound an enemy who, having laid down his arms, or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;

To declare that no quarter will be given;

To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;

To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention;

To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;

To declare abolished, suspended, or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party. A belligerent is likewise forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war.



http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm

Hi andy,

Please read the quote in bold...and tell me whether the death of Sturmbahnfuhrer Kampfe is treacherously or barbarically or not at the hands of the FTP bolsheviks

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#20

Post by Peter H » 03 Sep 2004, 12:15

Reflections of General Lammerding on Oradour,notes of Colonel Weidinger,as quoted in Max Hasting's Das Reich:
...it was necessary to provoke terror among the Masquisards to deprive them of the support of the civil population.The remedial method was cruel,but it was war...it was a matter of life or death for the German Army,and I approve of Dickmann's action in shooting the men and burning the houses in which masquisards had hidden,or in which arms and ammunition had been stored,conforming to the orders of General Sperrle.But Dickmann also left several hundred women and children to burn in the church,and that I cannot accept.It was a crime.I recognize it.

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Andy H
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#21

Post by Andy H » 03 Sep 2004, 12:36

Joachim Chan wrote:
To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
Please read the quote in bold...and tell me whether the death of Sturmbahnfuhrer Kampfe is treacherously or barbarically or not at the hands of the FTP bolsheviks
Joachim

Reading your point I can't see the word Kidnapping.
All sides during the war sent patrols out to bring back prisoners. This is kidnapping by any other name. So in your eyes there all warcrimes. Military personnel be they at the front line or within the rear face the same dangers.

On your specific point about Kampfe I cant respond because my knowledge of the event is only from what has been wriiten within this thread. However what I will say is that your trying to argue a circle.
You aportion part of the blame on the FTP because of the Kampfe inncident. Well taking this to its logical start point, then if Germany hadn't occupied France then Kampfe and the residents of O-s-G would have been alive in that late summer of 1944.

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#22

Post by mars » 03 Sep 2004, 23:25

Andy and Rob,my friends, I am very surprised that you have not got Mr Chan's point yet, you should got it very long time ago from my point, it was not about whether FTP's action was kidnapping or not, or whether these kind of action was legal in wartime or not, it was all about this action was COMMITTED BY BOLSHEVIKS,and it was because this action was AGAINST GERMANS, I guess both of you have too much free time

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#23

Post by Andy H » 04 Sep 2004, 12:17

Mars

I'm well aware of JC's agenda, but that does not mean one allows it to go by without comment.

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#24

Post by Panzermahn » 05 Sep 2004, 13:57

You aportion part of the blame on the FTP because of the Kampfe inncident. Well taking this to its logical start point, then if Germany hadn't occupied France then Kampfe and the residents of O-s-G would have been alive in that late summer of 1944.
If that is your logic, then i could equally said that without the injustice of Versailles Treaty forced on the vanquished back in 1918, there would be no WW2 and Germany wouldn't had to conduct military operations against Poland to regain back Danzig which the French and British gave guarantees which they could not fulfilled to protect Poland by declaring war against Germany. If there is no WW2, Kampfe would be alive and the there will be no Oradour sur Glane massacre
I'm well aware of JC's agenda,

What kind of agenda does one had if he or she only tell the historically true facts?

Nothing is more uglier or painful than the real truth but there is no greater courage than to confront and acknowledge it

(Joachim Chan, Introduction, The Silent Victims: Forgotten Crimes of the Allies in Second World War)
All sides during the war sent patrols out to bring back prisoners. This is kidnapping by any other name. So in your eyes there all warcrimes. Military personnel be they at the front line or within the rear face the same dangers.
So, what happen to Kampfe actually? So did the FTP released him at the end of the war where he reach his family safe and sound? (your term of getting "prisoners")..Tell you what the FTP did to Kampfe..They kidnapped him, interrogated him (but i'm sure Kampfe would not reveal anything as he is true to the SS motto) and when they find him not being useful, they killed Kampfe..(UNCONFIRMED RUMOURS, that KAMPFE was burned alive...but it's not the point here)

So Andy, if a group decided to kidnap an officer and then killed him after making use of him in anyway, that is not a war crime isn't it? And it's not killing treacherously?? :x :x

So, what is killing honorably? Like those terrorist who kidnapped foreign civillians or soldiers in Iraq and then beheaded them with the act captured in video? This is not a warcrime? :( :(

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#25

Post by Peter H » 05 Sep 2004, 15:31

Hastings gives the impression that Kampfe was executed after the Oradour Massacre,but on-one really knows(?).The reference to a rumour of his execution by burning sounds like unjust retribution for those innocents who died by flame at Oradour.

The summarily execution of a captured officer is a warcrime.The alternate FTP view could be that as they themselves were not recognised
as combatants,and shot out of hand if captured,then in the 'dirty war' between the Germans and the Maquis in 1944 following the rules of war didn't count.

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#26

Post by walterkaschner » 06 Sep 2004, 05:09

Rob - WSSOB wrote:
it was universally agreed that the bolshevik FTP partisans was indirectly responsible for the atrocity at Oradour sur Glane
It is not universally agreed. It is complete neo-nazi hogwash, used to whitewash the deliberate mass murder of hundreded of innocent French civilians killed "in reprisal" to stop the French resistance in June 1944.

It is also a perfect example of how reprisals are a complete and total failure as a security policy. The 2nd SS Panzer division could have arrived in Normandy within 3 days of D-Day. Instead it wasted 17 days driving up the back roads, killing over 700+ civilians in cold blood. So in effect:

The "Das Reich" division would have had a chance to throw back the Allies at Normandy within days of the invasion, but blew it.

Oradour, Tulle and the other massacres perpetuated by the 2nd SS division did not destroy, pacify, or deminish the activities of the French Resistance. In fact, it had the completely opposite effect, galvanizing and increasing resistance against the German occupation forces.
It seems to me that this may not be a fair analysis of the events, at least as reported by Max Hastings. It is certainly true that on June 7 (the day after D-Day) Army Group G ordered Das Reich to deploy in the Tulle-Limoges area to deal with the increased activity of the French résistants. But this area was in any event directly on the route to Normandy, and its movement to that area did not constitute a detour.

Apparently the Division got underway at dawn on June 8, but found it impossible to move north or north-west from Montauban at any great speed. Adequate wheeled transport was lacking, and worse, rail space for the tracked tanks and assault guns was unavailable, in part because of Allied bombings as well as numerous cuttings of the rail tracks by résistants . So the tracked vehicles were forced to slowly set off by road, and almost immediately faced serious maintenance problems that delayed them further.

Nonetheless, by the evening of June 8 the Division's advance reconnaisance battalion had reached Tulle, which had been virtually taken over by the communist led FTP (Franc-tireurs et Partisans) maquis after heavy fighting on June 7 and 8. On the 9th, the Division rounded up some 3,000 male residents of Tulle, of which 99 were hung in reprisal. And on the same day, orders were received for the Division to cease its present operations by noon on June 11 and to send its wheeled elements direct to Normandy. Tracked vehicles, however, were ordered to be entrained immediately for Normandy.

The massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane took place in the afternoon of June 10 - Das Reich's last battle against the maquis took place on the early morning of June 12 at Bellac, on the road to Poitiers - about 36 hours after, and presumably before knowledge of the atrocity at Oradour was known by the local maquis. There were none thereafter.

According to Max Hastings, Das Reich (Holt, Rinehart& Winston, 1981) at 185-6, the reprisals of the Das Reich Division made a profound impression on the local populace; there was a strong body of opinion among the local Resistance commanders that now held that no gesture in arms was worth such a terrible price, and that senior officers of the Armée Secrète (the Gaullist or at least non-communist Résistance organization) opposed any attempt to sieze and free towns , lest the horror of Oradour be repeated. Although the communist FTP may have been less troubled by the risk, they nonetheless failed to carry through with the full scale attack on Limoges which they had been planning for months.
Painful though it may be for humanitarians to accept, a policy of unlimited repression can be formidably effective.
Hastings, op cit supra at 186[/i]

So if Hastings can be believed, Das Reich got underway from Montauban on June 8 and met its last encounter with the résistants on the morning of June 12 - only 4 days later. That does not sound to me like it "wasted 17 days driving up the back roads, killing over 700+ civilians in cold blood""as Rob would have it. James Lucas also seems to dispute this view in his "Das Reich: The Military Role of the 2nd SS Division" (Arms and Armour Press, 1991) at 128.

It seems to me tolerably clear that the delays in Das Reich's going into battle in Normandy were primarily due to lack of adequate transport and fuel, the wear and tear on its tracked vehicles requiring high maintenance and replenishment of spare parts, Allied air superiority, and the demolition of railways and bridges by teams of résistants encouraged and supplied by the British.

As to whether or not the FTP partisans were indirectly responsible for the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane, at least Michael Williams, who IMHO is the leading authority on the incident, does not share Rob's view that the notion is "complete neo-nazi hogwash."
What seems certain is that the Resistance knew full well that it was as a result of their killing of Kämpfe that Oradour was destroyed and yet they have kept up a wall of self-protective silence ever since. They never even sent any explanation to the trial of the SS-men in 1953. Canou (who was the only Resistance man to give evidence) simply said that he handed Kämpfe over to his "chief". No real attempt was made to summon this, "chief" to Bordeaux to give evidence. It is obvious that the leaders of the local Resistance, especially Georges Guingouin, must either have ordered Kämpfe killed, or known of his fate. At the very least they must have been able to say how, where and when he died, for Guingouin was indeed Canou's chief as can be read on the modern monument to the kidnap of Kämpfe on the N141.

This may sound harsh, but to my mind, the silence of the Resistance leaders proves their bad consciences. The heroes of the armed struggle do not want to be held responsible for the destruction of Oradour, yet I am afraid that is indeed the case. It was their injudicious action concerning the fate of Kämpfe that sent Diekmann off on his rampage.
See: http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter7.htm

I certainly do not wish to imply that I have any sympathy whatsoever for the atrocious horrors committed by elements of the Das Reich Division at Oradour-sur-Glane or elsewhere. I'm only concerned with getting the facts and their logical implications straight. And I do believe that Rob-WSSOB's views, although completely understandable, may have been unduly clouded by emotion.

Regards, Kaschner

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#27

Post by Dan » 06 Sep 2004, 08:39

In 1980, I interviewed members of the SS Das Reich division, which was responsible for several hideous French massacres in June 1944, most notably the killing of more than 600 civilians at Oradour-sur-Glane, following the resistance kidnapping of a German officer.

An old SS man, sitting in his comfortable retirement bungalow in Bavaria, demanded with a bewilderment which seemed chillingly sincere: "Why was there so much trouble about this one incident in France? In Russia, such things happened every day." He went on to suggest that the Das Reich's action at Oradour had achieved its purpose, since there was no further significant resistance activity in the region during the last weeks of German occupation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/articl ... 92,00.html

It's interesting how human nature doesn't change. When the Turks were running Iraq when undistracted by war, that area was occupied and relatively peaceful.

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it's a sad fact but true...

#28

Post by Narrative » 06 Sep 2004, 15:39

...that the vast majority of those responsible for committing these kind of atrocities have little or no remorse.

It's one thing to have on your conscience the killing of unarmed soldiers and innocent adults but the matter-of-fact way these people dismiss such allegations particularly when they involve children with or without their mothers is to me quite astonishing.

There has been much written on this website about the so-called atrocities of the Allies in WW 2. I suppose some of it is probably true but I have yet to read or hear of any factual case of allied serviceman who deliberately massacred children as part of a reprisal programme. I suspect that this will probably act as a catalyst for the allies bashers who will tell me that the Russians did some unspeakable acts but let's be honest the Germans reaped the harvest they sowed in that respect.

It seems to me that most German soldiers when given the order to kill obeyed it without question, some even with enjoyment. There is little evidence to suggest any cases where leniency was observed.

I believe that generally that the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe acted with honour and were on occassions visibly disgusted by the actions of their armies - but that is another story.

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#29

Post by Obserwator » 06 Sep 2004, 15:55

I believe that generally that the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe acted with honour and were on occassions visibly disgusted by the actions of their armies - but that is another story.
Erase Luftwaffe from that sentence-the IIWW begun with bombing of hospital and civilians in city of Wielun by Luftwaffe(1200 civilians were murdered by that action), they conducted several bombing raids on refugee columns, civilians, as well as diplomatic personel IIRC.
And don't forget about Legion of the Condor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielun
Wieluń is a town in central Poland with 25,500 inhabitants (1995). Situated in the Lodz Voivodship (since 1999), previously in Sieradz Voivodship (1975-1998).

On September 1, 1939 at 4.40 in the morning, the town was bombed by German Luftwaffe. There were no military targets in the area. German bombers destroyed most of the town centre (including the historical gothical church) and killed approximately 1 200 civilians. Approximately 75% of all the buildings in Wieluń were destroyed. Among the first targets bombed by the Germans was the hospital (despite huge Red Cross sign painted on the roof). This air raid was one of the events marking the start of World War II
This year state ceremonies of German agression were conducted at Wielun to remember innocent civilans that died by hands of Luftwaffe.

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#30

Post by Panzermahn » 08 Sep 2004, 11:47

I suppose some of it is probably true but I have yet to read or hear of any factual case of allied serviceman who deliberately massacred children as part of a reprisal programme.

Narrative,

If you check the records of Allied forces during the occupation of Germany from 1945-1947, you will find that even Allied forces instituted disproportionate reprisal shootings for any death to allied soldiers..Whether the treat had been carried out, that is one thing

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