Check this out:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/con ... tisse.html
Kurt Gerstein a thief?
Re: Kurt Gerstein a thief?
We do not think it is right to say that Mr. Gerstein 'headed the Abteilung Entwesung und Entseuchung (Pest Control and Decontamination Dept) at Auschwitz.' To our knowledge, Mr. Gerstein was never even at Auschwitz.
The claim that all 7 (actually 6) versions of the Report were authored by Mr. Gerstein is dubious. Mr. Roques could only identify three versions of which Mr. Gerstein was 'indisputably the author'.
By its nature, Mr. Roques's thesis does not lend itself to a simple summary. If the poster is interested, we could reproduce, at our leisure, the concluding chapter of the thesis.
Upon reflection, we shall not reproduce the complete chapter in question - only pertinent excerpts. However, we think it preferable to post first the following from the thesis, documenting some of the problems with the multiple texts. 29 are listed, which we shall split into two parts.Dan wrote:Thanks, I would be interested.
Statement of the Improbabilities and Peculiarities in the “Confessions” of Gerstein
1. Gerstein, who has twice been the victim of the Nazis before the war, voluntarily joins the SS and does so with the recommendation of the Gestapo.
2. At Christmas 1941, Gerstein is on the point of being chased out of the SS because the Nazi tribunal has learned that he was working there as second lieutenant specialist (Untersturmfuhrer F). But six months later, on 8 June 1942, he is made responsible for an ultrasecret mission: he has to transport to the Belzec camp 100 kgs of hydrocyanic acid (“confessions” of 26.4.45, T II; and of 4.5.45, T III) or 260 kgs (“confessions” of 6.5.45, T IV, T V, and T VI).
3. At Kollin, near Prague, Gerstein – who pretends in other passages of his “confessions” to be so prudent because of the risk of reprisals against himself and his family – states that he has let the Czech personnel of the Kollin factory know (T VI) that the hydrocyanic acid was intended for killing people (TIII, TIV, and T V).
4. At Lublin, the SS general Globocnik, who has never seen Gerstein or his travelling companion Pfannenstiel previously, reveals to them immediately “the biggest secret of the Reich.”
5. Gerstein reports other remarks by Globocnik; they concern the three camps which are functioning, for which the SS general presumably gave the following details:
Belzec: maximum 15,000 per day
Sobibor: 20,000 per day maximum
Treblinka: 25,000 per day maximum.
One reads nothing further in the manuscripts handwritten in French (T I, T II and T IV) nor in the German version (TIII). These figures could represent the respective totals of deportees arriving daily in those camps. But in T V and T IV one reads additionally the word “executions.” The last two versions even give an average utilization for Belzec and Treblinka, namely, 11,000 for Belzec (T V) and 13,500 for Treblinka (T VI).
We have consulted the Encyclopaedia Judaica to discover the dates of functioning of the three camps. For Belzec, it was not easy to know whether the extermination mentioned by the Encyclopaedia Judaica came to an end on 31 December 1942 or in the spring of 1943.
Did the exterminations of which Gerstein writes take place every day? On this point, the “confessions” do not inform us. We set out below the results of our calculations.
[We omit the given table which enumerates certain totals for the camps based on the above cited figures. We do so for two reasons. Firstly, reproducing the table is laborious and secondly, we don't appreciate the reductio ad absurdum approach in this instance. It reminds us too much of the method used by the Soviet technical experts at Auschwitz.]
6. Of the four camps mentioned by Globocnik, Gerstein claims to have visited three. But in five of his “confessions” the camp not visited is Sobibor and in one “confession” (T V) it is Maidanek that he has not seen.
7. Hitler and Himmler supposedly visited Belzec on 15 August 1942. Now, it is historically verified that this is a falsehood (see Professor Hans Rothfels – Vierteljahreshefte fur Zeitgeschichte, April 1953, No. 2). Some have alleged that this was mere boasting by the SS general. Impossible, because the lie would quickly have been discovered by Gerstein’s conversations with the officials at Belzec.
8. Dimensions of the chambers. In the “confessions” of 26 April 1945 (T I and T II): 4m x 5m x 1.9m, that is 20 m2 and 38 m3. In the “confessions” of the 4 and 6 of May 1945 (T III, T V and T VI): 5m x 5m x 1.9m, which is 25 m2 and 47.5 m3. But the engineer Gerstein writes in all his “confessions”: 25 m2 and 45 m3.
9. A figure of 6,700 persons in 45 freight cars, which gives more than 148 persons per car. There were 1,450 already dead on arrival; there thus remained 5,250 persons alive.
10. A little boy of 3-4 years, apparently alone, as Gerstein writes of him, distributes the small strings successively to 5,250 deportees to tie up their shoes together.
11. A piles of shoes 35 to 40 meters high (in the majority of the “confessions”) or 25 meters (T III); in the first case, a height of ten to twelve stories and, in the second case, a height of seven to eight stories. How are such heights climbed to place shoes there?
12. The figures of 700-800 persons standing on 25 m2, in 45 m3 (this is a constant of all the versions). Can one imagine a room of this area and this volume which would contain about 750 persons standing one against the other? Thirty persons on one square meter?
13. Unrealistic arithmetic (in two “confessions” of 6 May 1945: T V and T VI). More than half are children. Weight: 35 kgs (TV) or 30 kgs (T VI). Thus, Gerstein adds, 25,250 kgs per chamber. How this precise total, which is neither divisible by 35 nor 30?
14. The police captain Wirth, chief of the Belzec camp, interrogates Gerstein minutely (sic) to learn whether he prefers the people to die in a lighted or unlighted room (T V and T VI).
15. Gerstein says he is present at the gassing. He coolly consults his stopwatch. The Diesel engine does not start. Unperturbed and inactive, Gerstein counts the passing minutes: 50 minutes, then 70 minutes. Finally, at the end of 2 hours, and 49 minutes, the Diesel starts working. He says he records that at the end of 25 minutes most of the victims are dead, that at the end of 28 minutes a few still survive, and at the end of 32 minutes everyone is dead.
If engineer Gerstein is so cold-bloooded, the arithmetical errors pointed out in 8 above cannot be explained by the fact that he would have been distressed. On the other hand, even supposing one could concentrate 700-800 persons standing upright into a space of 25 square meters, then these people would not have been able to survive for 2 hours, 49 minutes; they would rapidly have exhausted the oxygen. Finally, if we suppose that nevertheless they could have survived, how would Gerstein, looking through a small window, have been able to discern in this extraordinarily compact group those who were dead and those living? In fact, the dead would not have been able to fall to the floor.
16. In all the “confessions” it is said that the gassing was done with an old Diesel engine. The word “Diesel” is repeated three or four times, according to the version, in the relevant passage. Previously, Gerstein, when telling of his interview with the SS general Globocnik, said that the latter told him from the start of the conversation that the gas chambers worked with the exhaust gases of an old Diesel engine.
Now the Diesel is an internal combustion engine which gives off little carbon monoxide (CO), an odorless and fatal gas, but a great deal of carbon dioxide (CO2), a suffocating gas which makes a person ill but does not cause death until after a lengthy period of time. It would have been more efficient to use a gasoline engine.
17. Gerstein declares (T V and T VI): “There are not ten persons who have seen what I have seen and who will see it…I am one of the five men who have seen all the installations.” Now, in his account, Gerstein himself quotes the names of persons who, between 15 and 19 August, would either have assisted or been present at the massacre of Belzec. There are already more than ten for this brief period of five days. These are:
-- Hitler, Himmler, Dr. Linden (15th August)
-- Globocnik, Wirth, Obermeyer, Heckenholt (every day)
-- Pfannenstiel, Gerstein (19th August)
-- anonymous persons:a big SS man with a clergyman-like voice who reassures the deportees on the fate that awaits them; an Unterscharfuhrer (noncommissioned officer) of the service who informs Gerstein about the utilization of the women’s hair; an SS man who, in his country dialect, states that the deportees can wait naked in the open air in no matter what temperature since they are there in order to die; the SS men who with their horsewhips lash the deportees entering the gas chamber; a Ukrainian who helps Heckenholt to start the engine; etc.
In any case, how can we accept it that the massive exterminations, perpetrated over many months and in several camps, could have fewer than ten witnesses?
18. The bodies are thrown into ditches of 100m x 20m x 12m situated near the gas chambers. The depth of 12 meters represents 3 to 4 stories of a building. The bodies are covered with a layer of ten centimeters of sand; only some heads and arms emerge. Here we have conditions favorable for the development of an epidemic which would not have spared either the SS or their auxiliaries.
19. The number of victims in the camp of Belzec and Treblinka: 25 million or 20 million (T V and T VI). These figures are unbelievable (see the opinion of David Rousset on Point 5).
20. Wirth proposes to Gerstein to change nothing in the method of gassing. Thus a simple captain of police refuses to follow the orders of an SS general, since Globocnik had ordered Gerstein to change the method.
21. In T V, Gerstein says: “What is curious is that no one asked me a single question in Berlin.” (He repeats the same thing to Commandant Mattei, who interrogated him in Paris on 19 July 1945, and he provokes the following reply: “You are charged with an ultrasecret mission, you do not accomplish it, and no one asks you to make a report on your return. That was hardly customary in the German army.”)
22. He has had the hydrocyanic acid buried on the pretext that it had deteriorated during transportation and had become dangerous. It would be impossible to accept this statement by Gerstein, unless on condition that we be given details of the operation. Now, during the interrogation of 19 July 1945, Gerstein states that he was transporting 45 bottles of hydrocyanic acid, one of which had got in bad condition; he adds that these 45 bottles were hidden 1200 meters from the Belzec camp. It must have been no small job to hide 45 bottles. Gerstein claims to have been helped by the driver, whom he did not know previously, and did not see again after their journey together in Poland, and who, according to Gerstein, belonged to the Central Security Service.
23. In T I, Gerstein says that after his meeting in the train with the Swedish diplomat, von Otter, he went to see him again at the Swedish Legation in Berlin one more time. In all the other “confessions” Gerstein says that he saw van Otter again twice (the diplomat remembers only one time).
24. Gerstein tells us that from the beginning of 1944, 8,500 kgs of hydrocyanic acid, were stocked at Berlin; he supplies no proof for specifying that quantity of poison. Then he goes on to speculate on the homicidal intentions of SS Sturmbannfuhrer Gunther, who would have given him the command to place these very large orders; Gerstein then reviews the categories of possible victims, estimating them at 8 million.
25. On the advice of Gerstein, the hydrocyanic acid is dispatched to the camps of Auschwitz and Oranienburg; the Obersturmfuhrer does what is necessary to insure that this acid will be used only for disinfection. In none of his “confessions” does Gerstein say that he has been to Auschwitz. In his interrogation of 19 July 1945 he does not mention Auschwitz among the camps he has visited. How has he been able to act at a distance?
26. Gunther envisaged killing with hydrocyanic acid in the open air, in the moats of Maria-Theresienstadt, the Jews who walked there. Gerstein dissuaded Gunther from carrying out this project which was, moreover, impracticable. However, Gerstein learned that in spite of everything the operation had taken place.
Hydrocyanic acid, which is highly volatile, cannot be used in this manner “in the open air.”
27. Gerstein has seen homosexuals disappear in a furnace (several thousands in T V and T VI; several hundreds in T III) in a single day (T II, T V, and T VI) or in several days (T III).
28. In Poland, it is testified to, that to kill people, they were made to climb the stairway of a blast furnace; that they were executed at the top of this stairway with a pistol shot and they were thrown in the chimney of the blast furnace (T III, T V, T VI). Can one imagine the scene? The people climb one by one to the top of the “stairway”; an SS man or an auxiliary waits for them at the summit in the fumes of the blast furnace in order to kill them.
29. At Auschwitz, where Gerstein has never been, several million children are killed by applying a pad of hydrocyanic acid under the nose (T V and T VI). The same method of killing children is mentioned in T II and T III, but no mention is made of several millions.
Etc., etc.
Well, but not all points mentioned by Roque are seriously questioning Gerstein's credibilitiy. IMO these are 7.), 11.) 12.), 18.) and 19.)Dan wrote:Thank you. This man was clearly either tortured or insane.
7.) Roque writes that Gerstein says in his confessions that (according to Globocnik) Hitler and Himmler visited Belzec on 15 August 1942. But if you read what Gerstein actually wrote it appears that he says that Hitler and Himmler were in Lublin, not in the extermination camp Belzec. Himmler had an appointment book which survived the war, so it shouldn't be difficult to find out where he was on 15 august. Considering that he meet Höß in Auschwitz one month earlier and dicussed among other things the extermination of the Jews in Birkenau, it is not unlikely that he meet Globocnik one month later, discussing the extermination of the Jews in his camps.
That Hitler was in Lublin too appears to be a falsehood. But why did Gerstein testify that? Was he tortured, was he insane, has he simply lied because he wanted to blame Hitler for what he saw in Belzec, or is Globocnik the origin of this falsehood?
11.) "A piles of shoes 35 to 40 meters high" is cleary an exaggeration. Gerstein certainly saw huge amounts of clothes and shoes piled up in Belzec, but not 40 meters high. Maybe, what he saw in Belzec made him a bit insane.
12.) "The figures of 700-800 persons standing on 25 m2, in 45 m3 (this is a constant of all the versions). Can one imagine a room of this area and this volume which would contain about 750 persons standing one against the other? Thirty persons on one square meter?"
I cannot imagine thirty persons on one square meter. But the number of people per square meter as given by Gerstein made a former Holocaust denier becoming a "revisionist" who believes in gas chambers:
Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ft ... tte.010304WHY HOLOCAUST DENIERS TURNED ON ONE OF THEIR OWN
DENNIS B. RODDY, POST-GAZETTE STAFF WRITER
03/04/2001
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
REGION
A-12 (Copyright 2001)
The night he discovered the Holocaust, Charles D. Provan was reading-
again-the book that was supposed to put the matter to rest. Before he
killed himself in 1945, Kurt Gerstein, an SS officer, gave a lengthy
account of killings he witnessed in the camps and, boy, were his
numbers strange.
Men, women, children -- 700 to 800 in all, more than half of them
children-were forced naked into a 16-foot by 16-foot chamber in
Belzec, eastern Poland. Camp guards fired up a diesel engine. A
half-hour later, soaked in sweat and urine, columns of bodies stood
dead.
Seven hundred people in 256 square feet? Three people per square foot?
That's three human beings somehow crammed into the space of one square
of linoleum tile. Think about it. The Gerstein document, with its
ridiculous numbers, became a weapon for so-called "revisionist
historians" who regard the Holocaust as a wartime exaggeration or a
post-war hoax. Holocaust historians sometimes glossed over Gerstein's
dubious body counts, and Holocaust denier Henri Roques brought out a
handsome new edition of the Gerstein document with accompanying
analysis explaining the ridiculousness of the figures.
Provan, a Holocaust doubter, bought one right away. He believed
Roques.
"I just thought the numbers were way off," he said.
That December night in 1990, though, the quizzical Provan was struck
by a line in Gerstein's account about the victims: "... more than half
are children ... ."
"Hey, kids!" Provan gave a yell. Shouting "hey, kids" in the Provan
house is risking a stampede. A printer by trade, he is by avocation a
Protestant lay theologian who has written against birth control. He
now has 10 children.
Matthias, Tobias, Nathanael, and Susanna came running.
"Let's do an experiment," Provan told them.
The kids peeled to their underwear in an upstairs bedroom. Provan
moved a chest of drawers and an old cabinet into a corner. The kids
squealed and giggled as he crowded them into a tiny, tiny space he'd
created.
He grabbed a doll to round the number out to five. It had to be a
sight:
Provan, a bearded, bulky fellow with a large, pear-shaped face,
perpetually set in a smile, looking like a man who is about to laugh
or has just finished, corralling kids in underwear to see how many
could be executed in as small a space as possible.
His wife, Carol, heard the noise.
"What are you doing?" she asked.
"I'm gonna' see how many kids can fit in a gas chamber!" he shouted.
"Oh." A pause. "You shouldn't do that!"
After crowding the youngsters into the tiny space, Provan went
downstairs to his parlor with a hand calculator, stretched out on the
recliner, and did a little math.
The numbers worked. Those bizarre, impossible numbers worked.
"Then it dawned on me," Provan said. "He saw that. He saw that!"
Gerstein saw those children, those old men, those mothers, he saw them
jammed into a room, 700 or more at a time, bleeding, sweating,
urinating in fear. He saw the doors open, saw bodies so tangled in
death they lacked even the power to fall. If Gerstein was telling a
truth so improbable, the other stuff had to be so, too. It happened.
18.) 12 meter deep ditches seems to be an exaggeration.
19.) Perhaps somebody could quote what Gerstein actually wrote since I cannot find this claim in his confessions.
I do, Dan! Gerstein's account is confirmed by other SS witnesses ( if you want somebody without exagerations and evident falsehoods: Eichmann for instance). If I read his gassing description it convinces me that Jews were exterminated in Belzec.I assume no one today places any trust in them.
We admire the poster's optimism. One suspects these appointment diaries, which cover the years 1941 and 1942, are not accessible to any Tom, Dick or Harry, although we would be happy to be proved wrong. Apparently, there is a gap in the entries covering the crucial period June 25 to August 12 1941, the opening weeks of Operation Barbarossa. Given that Mr. Hoess claimed his meeting with Mr. Himmler, in which he was informed about the Final Solution, took place before the invasion of Russia, we are hopeful that such a meeting may be recorded.Hans wrote:
7.) Roque writes that Gerstein says in his confessions that (according to Globocnik) Hitler and Himmler visited Belzec on 15 August 1942. But if you read what Gerstein actually wrote it appears that he says that Hitler and Himmler were in Lublin, not in the extermination camp Belzec. Himmler had an appointment book which survived the war, so it shouldn't be difficult to find out where he was on 15 august.
(http://www.mazal.org/archive/H%D6SS/TEXT/HOS1-019.htm)Q About July 1941? Where did you see him?
A I was ordered to him in Berlin.
Q Are you sure it was after the Russian campaign had started.
A No, it was before the Russian campaign had started.
Q Then it couldn't have been in July.
A I cannot remember the exact month, but I know for sure it was before the date that the Russian campaign was launched.
Q Where did you meet him.
A In his office on Prince Albert Street 8.
Q Who else was present?
A I was alone.
Q What reasons did he give for this order?
A I don't recall his exact words, but the meaning was that the Fuehrer had given the order for the final solution of the Jewish problem.
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Charles Bunch
- Member
- Posts: 846
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:03
- Location: USA
Really!Hebden wrote:We admire the poster's optimism. One suspects these appointment diaries, which cover the years 1941 and 1942, are not accessible to any Tom, Dick or Harry, although we would be happy to be proved wrong. Apparently, there is a gap in the entries covering the crucial period June 25 to August 12 1941, the opening weeks of Operation Barbarossa.Hans wrote:
7.) Roque writes that Gerstein says in his confessions that (according to Globocnik) Hitler and Himmler visited Belzec on 15 August 1942. But if you read what Gerstein actually wrote it appears that he says that Hitler and Himmler were in Lublin, not in the extermination camp Belzec. Himmler had an appointment book which survived the war, so it shouldn't be difficult to find out where he was on 15 august.
Now who told you that, Tom, Dick, or Harry?
Tom, Dick and Harry should try the following link:Hebden wrote:We admire the poster's optimism. One suspects these appointment diaries, which cover the years 1941 and 1942, are not accessible to any Tom, Dick or Harry, although we would be happy to be proved wrong.
Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmlers 1941/42. Im Auftrag der Forschungsstelle für Zeitgeschichte in Hamburg bearbeitet, kommentiert und eingeleitet von Peter Witte, Michael Wildt, Martina Voigt, Dieter Pohl, Peter Klein, Christian Gerlach, Christoph Dieckmann und Andrej Angrick.
We are indebted to the poster. It is to be hoped that the book reproduces the complete contents of the diaries. We have little faith in the judgement of ersatz editors.Hans wrote:Tom, Dick and Harry should try the following link:Hebden wrote:We admire the poster's optimism. One suspects these appointment diaries, which cover the years 1941 and 1942, are not accessible to any Tom, Dick or Harry, although we would be happy to be proved wrong.
Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmlers 1941/42. Im Auftrag der Forschungsstelle für Zeitgeschichte in Hamburg bearbeitet, kommentiert und eingeleitet von Peter Witte, Michael Wildt, Martina Voigt, Dieter Pohl, Peter Klein, Christian Gerlach, Christoph Dieckmann und Andrej Angrick.
Regarding the vexed question of the Hoess-Himmler meeting, we must conclude that no such mention of a congress between the two men in Berlin in the summer of 1941 (or even 1942) appears. Either the matter was too secret (or unimportant) even to be recorded by Mr. Himmler, or the official history of the Auschwitz camp must once again be revised.
Incidentally, we have opened a thread in the Uniforms, Headgear & Insignia forum regarding Mr. Gerstein.
See: http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6085
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Charles Bunch
- Member
- Posts: 846
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:03
- Location: USA
You two are very good at making conclusions based on nothing.And having just had your unjustified skepticism about the availability of the desk calendar exposed, we should place confidence in this skepticism why?Hebden wrote:We are indebted to the poster. It is to be hoped that the book reproduces the complete contents of the diaries. We have little faith in the judgement of ersatz editors.Hans wrote:Tom, Dick and Harry should try the following link:Hebden wrote:We admire the poster's optimism. One suspects these appointment diaries, which cover the years 1941 and 1942, are not accessible to any Tom, Dick or Harry, although we would be happy to be proved wrong.
Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmlers 1941/42. Im Auftrag der Forschungsstelle für Zeitgeschichte in Hamburg bearbeitet, kommentiert und eingeleitet von Peter Witte, Michael Wildt, Martina Voigt, Dieter Pohl, Peter Klein, Christian Gerlach, Christoph Dieckmann und Andrej Angrick.
Regarding the vexed question of the Hoess-Himmler meeting, we must conclude that no such mention of a congress between the two men in Berlin in the summer of 1941 (or even 1942) appears. Either the matter was too secret (or unimportant) even to be recorded by Mr. Himmler, or the official history of the Auschwitz camp must once again be revised.
In fact, you seem to vacillate between posting large amounts of material about which you make no point, to drawing conclusions from nothing at all.
We take the liberty of posting the following material, from which readers can draw their own conclusions.
Translation of letter from Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel to M. Paul Rassinier dated August 3, 1963.
Dear Monsieur Rassinier,
I acknowledge with thanks the receipt of your letter of July 29, 1963.
As our mutual friend Grabert has already informed you, I shall be very happy to meet you personally. At that time, I shall willingly describe to you the impression made on me by Kurt Gerstein.
Your suppositions in regard to the origin of his report, which really is a highly incredible fabrication in which the story is completely beyond belief, as well as the circumstances of his death, all seem - equally, in my opinion - to be suppositions well justified.
In light of the fact that the involvement of my name in this trumpery has on many occasions aroused completely unjustified interpretations which are not only false but which have also caused me many injuries, you will understand that I insist at all costs in avoiding any recurrence of a public debate concerning me personally which could give rise to new negative interpretations and aspersions on the part of scandalmongers.
For these reasons, I shall be especially grateful to you for your guarantee to treat my evidence with the maximum of discretion.
It is true that I still continue to be often away on travel. Unfortunately, there is no particular occasion in the near future for me to travel to Paris or nearby to that magnificent city, which I visited for the first time in November of last year.
If you should have an opportunity to come to Marburg, a visit from you would be most welcome. From mid-August to the end of September I shall be at home most of the time.
Kindly write to me what approximate time I might be able to expect you here. We could then finalize an exact date for a meeting.
Sincere regards..... (Signed) Wilhelm Pfannenstiel.