Human lampshades?

[Benjamin Fanjoy]

Then spend more time on line then in motels with whores.

:roll:

You are pathetic! :roll:


Thanks for your help! :roll:

[Dan]

Then spend more time on line then in motels with whores.

:roll:

You are pathetic! :roll:


Thanks for your help! :roll:

Stop running up your number of posts for a while. You will gain much respect. A smiley face after every post doesn't make you a thinker. Perhaps a butt-kisser.....

Do you want to threaten me also?

[Benjamin Fanjoy]

Stop running up your number of posts for a while. You will gain much respect. A smiley face after every post doesn't make you a thinker. Perhaps a butt-kisser.....

Do you want to threaten me also?

Why don't you stop running up your posts with garbage denial posts?

If you have not realized people do not respect you or your crap.

Look "Mr. Historian", don't start with the threatening B.S, just keep your jargon to yourself.

[Benjamin Fanjoy]

Anyway, if Dan is finished interrupting,

Can someone please suggest some literature or web pages that delve into this area of the Holocaust?



Regards,

Benjamin Fanjoy

[spence___]

I think i read something about this in a Pyschology book, i heard it was a jewish woman who was using the skin of other jewish people.

[Benjamin Fanjoy]

Which book Spence??


Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[spence___]

thanks, it was some older text book i had back in high school, i cant remember the name.

They gave a reason for it, like how people held captive can become emotionally attached to there captors.

as for the SS women skin lampshades, it seems to be a myth. The 'human' skin lampshades were actually made out of goat's flesh. http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/liberationofthecamps.html

[Benjamin Fanjoy]

Interesting link , Thanks

[Marcus]

Dan & Benjamin,

Stop it with the insults!

/Marcus

[Roberto]

Anyway, if Dan is finished interrupting,

Can someone please suggest some literature or web pages that delve into this area of the Holocaust?



Regards,

Benjamin Fanjoy

I wouldn’t call the “human lamp shades” issue an “area of the Holocaust”. It was more like an individual nutcase, completely unrepresentative of a genocide that was characterized more by dispassionate and methodical butchery than by any imaginative atrocities.

The inmates of Buchenwald from whose skin the commander’s wife Ilse Koch had lamp shades manufactured were probably not Jews but members of the criminal underworld among whom it was usual to wear the imaginative tattoos that appealed to the lady’s fancy.

Evidence to these and other isolated folkloristic practices at Buchenwald can be viewed under the following links:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -doc01.gif

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -doc04.gif

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... wald02.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... runken.jpg

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... s-3420.jpg

[fju]

The inmates of Buchenwald from whose skin the commander’s wife Ilse Koch had lamp shades manufactured were probably not Jews but members of the criminal underworld among whom it was usual to wear the imaginative tattoos that appealed to the lady’s fancy.

Roberto,

A thought just struck me; I don't think Jews go in for elaborate tatooing.

Franz

[Luca]

[quote="Roberto"]
The inmates of Buchenwald from whose skin the commander’s wife Ilse Koch had lamp shades manufactured were probably not Jews but members of the criminal underworld among whom it was usual to wear the imaginative tattoos that appealed to the lady’s fancy.

Dear Roberto,
concern the integration of Jews people in all aspects of the German society, ve you some informations concern the Jews criminals during pre war and first time of war?
For exemple the "guests" in Moabit "hotel" in Berlin.

Thank You for the..."isolated folkloristic practices at Buchenwald"..links.

Best Regards
Luca

[Roberto]

The inmates of Buchenwald from whose skin the commander’s wife Ilse Koch had lamp shades manufactured were probably not Jews but members of the criminal underworld among whom it was usual to wear the imaginative tattoos that appealed to the lady’s fancy.

Dear Roberto,
concern the integration of Jews people in all aspects of the German society, ve you some informations concern the Jews criminals during pre war and first time of war?
For exemple the "guests" in Moabit "hotel" in Berlin.

I just read that Jews don't like tattoos ...

[Ovidius]

Mauthausen's commandant, Franz Ziereis, dubbed Baby Face, had come up through the ranks and was named chief in 1939. He always appeared immaculately uniformed and bemedaled. Since Himmler had taken him from a mental asylum, Ziereis imitated his mentor by drawing the members of his personal staff from among vicious criminals. He conducted seminars to
refine techniques in brutality and never denied that he shared in the
satisfactions of maltreating the prisoners. He confessed to the charge that book covers and screens had been made from the skins of the camp victims, but claimed that this was the work of two of his demented fellow officers.
<16> To Ziereis it was apparently entertaining to have the kitchen staff
overturn pots of watery soup so that the starved creatures who shambled up for their `meal' would be forced to lick the spillage before it was
absorbed into the filthy floor. ... In his confessions he noted that he
gave fifty Jews for target practice as a birthday present to his son.

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/maut ... thausen.02

Emphase is mine.

Deceit & Misrepresentation
The Techniques of Holocaust Denial
Frau Ilse Koch, General Lucius Clay, and human-skin atrocities


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Writer: Jamie McCarthy Editor: Ken McVay

Ilse Koch (her first name has two syllables; her last name sounds like the Scottish"loch") is the most famous of all Germans accused of having committed atrocities during the war. She was the wife of the commandant of the Buchenwald camp. She was twice convicted in post-war trials, once by an international court and once by her own country. The chief charges against her were cruelty to inmates, including murder, but what she is best-known for is the making of human-skin ornaments, including the lampshades of which we've all heard.

It's exceedingly well-documented that such ornaments did exist; there's no question but that someone made them out of human skin. When one can see a book whose cover is tanned skin with a decorative tattoo on it, there's little question that the skin was that of a human being. If one has any doubt as to the origin of the substance, one should examine the forensic report conducted on some of the skin. It concludes, based on microscopic examination and the placement of the nipples and navel, that the skin was certainly human.

Various Holocaust-deniers, however, have attempted to cast doubt upon the existence of this skin, and upon the guilt of Ilse Koch in particular. Arthur Butz writes: [1]


The tattooed skin was undoubtedly due to the medical experiment role of Buchenwald. As remarked by [Christopher] Burney [a former inmate], when a Buchenwald inmate died the camp doctors looked his body over and if they found something interesting they saved it. It is fairly certain that the collection of medical specimens thus gathered was the source of the tattooed skin and the human head that turned up at the IMT as "exhibits" relating to people "murdered" at Buchenwald. [...]
...in 1948 the American military governor, General Lucius Clay, reviewed her case and determined that, despite testimony produced at her trial, Frau Koch could not be related to the lampshades and other articles which were "discovered" (i.e. planted) in the Buchenwald commandant's residence when the camp was captured in 1945. For one thing, she had not lived there since her husband's, and her own, arrest in 1943. Also her "family journal," said to be bound in human skin, and which was one of the major accusations against her, was never located, and obviously never existed.


Already we have two explanations of the human-skin ornaments. It is interesting to note that they are mutually exclusive. On the one hand, according to Butz, the ornaments unquestionably did exist, since tattooed skin was produced at the IMT, though it is "fairly certain" that the "medical specimens" were simply cut from the corpses of inmates who died naturally. On the other hand, the ornaments were "planted" by the Allies.
Butz can't have it both ways. He can claim that Ilse Koch is innocent because the ornaments came from inmates who died of natural causes and not murder; or, he can claim that the ornaments were forgeries, planted by the Allies to incriminate the Nazis. To claim both is ludicrous. Yet this is exactly what he does.

Nizkor wonders why Butz omitted the following:

'Frau Koch was also the amateur of tattooed skins. Inspections were held at the hospital, the more noteworthy chests and arms put to one side, and the owners killed and skinned. The skins were then submitted to her and she chose those which she liked and ordered them to be made up. The lampshade which Koch presented to her has earned them both places in the lowest category of bipeds' (Christopher Burney, Dungeon Democracy, printed in Burney, Solitary Confinement and The Dungeon Democracy, London, 1984, pp.148-49).
Butz's book was one of the earlier attempts at Holocaust denial, and later efforts would refine it to a great degree. Such refinement is clearly demonstrated by following deniers' claims about Ilse Koch.

In fact, in the same year that Butz's book was published, 1976, General Lucius Clay gave an interview at the little-known George C. Marshall Research Foundation, in which he indicated that he believed that the human-skin ornaments were not in fact made of human skin, but rather of goat skin. Mark Weber, now the Editor of the Journal of Historical Review, became aware of this interview some years later, after Clay had died (in 1978). He obtained a transcript, with the aid of Robert Wolfe of the National Archives, now retired, who incidentally is strongly opposed to Holocaust-denial. In 1987, Weber published his findings in an article in the Journal of Historical Review[2]

Armed with this "new" evidence, deniers began to play down Butz's claim that Koch should be considered innocent because the human-skin ornaments were merely "medical specimens." After all, this is the weaker argument; if one grants the courts' determinations that the human-skin ornaments existed, and further grants the courts' rulings that Koch was guilty of murder on separate counts, then it is an academic point whether the skin came from inmates who died naturally or violently.

It better rehabilitates the image of Nazism to say that the Allies framed Ilse Koch -- so this is the tack which deniers began to take. Theodore J. O'Keefe later published a pamphlet entitled "The 'Liberation of the Camps': Facts vs. Lies," which used the Clay quotation, and repeated Weber's claim that the human-skin ornaments never existed or were planted by the Allies. Bradley R. Smith's original campus advertisements, purchased in student newspapers in 1991, carried the Clay quotation and implied Weber's claim.[3] Later, deniers began to quote from Jean Edward Smith's Lucius D. Clay: An American Life[4] , in which Clay repeated the goat skin claim (but also contradicted himself, as we shall see).

~Ovidius

[Sergey Romanov]

The Nizkor piece is very misleading. The issue at hand is specifically the lampshades, not some "ornaments" in general. Yet the piece mixes everything together, as if existence of one thing automatically proved the existence of another.

The tattooed pieces of skin that were collected in the camp for ostensibly scientific research on criminality are documented, not lampshades, book covers and such.

There is testimonial evidence that these pieces were (further) misused to create various trinkets, including 1 or 2 lampshades. Some of that testimony comes from credible witnesses, some (like the book cover one) doesn't. There's no credible testimony that incriminates Ilse Koch as to the manufacture of lampshades.

Here is the summary of evidence: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -skin.html