Stalins purges: Responsible for 20 million deaths.

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Topspeed
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#31

Post by Topspeed » 14 Oct 2004, 16:24

Sergey Romanov wrote:
Wrong, real figures were even posted on this forum.
See
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
These were proven non reliable already by Uninen at the NKVD statistics topic and they didn't add up right.

Here is an other low number testimony and it is by world socialist web forum ( stalin victims gives 70 pages by google ): http://www.wsws.org/exhibits/1937/lecture1.htm

This 1,6 mio killed in the camps and 800 000 shot by executions gives the 2,4 million, but this are just the officially recorded numbers. Found convinietly 70-50 years after things took place. Victims of Hitler regime have been studied ever since 1945. There were at least 50 years to hide all the evidence for the soviets.

Solzenitchyn talks about 60 million victims. I am pretty sure he had some ground for his claims. I am also inclined to think that 60 millions is too much, but you never know from 1918-1953 there are 35 years to cover and USSR was twice the size of Germany in population. Not forgetting the folks in Ukraine that died for the artificial famine ( 11 mio was it ? ) all these had to be included too. Those who were deported to Siberia to labour camps without a trial and decleared as enemies of the state. All in all there are whole lotta people that will not show up in that NKVD statistics that are dead and buried by the communists.

Here is link to an alleged massexecution of 30 000 people: http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/09/23/37060.html

As much as I'd like to believe the "nice" 2,4 millions figure I just cannot there are too many facts that talk about a much higher figure.

best regards,

Juke T :|

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Kunikov
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#32

Post by Kunikov » 14 Oct 2004, 17:12

Topspeed wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:
Wrong, real figures were even posted on this forum.
See
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
These were proven non reliable already by Uninen at the NKVD statistics topic and they didn't add up right.

Here is an other low number testimony and it is by world socialist web forum ( stalin victims gives 70 pages by google ): http://www.wsws.org/exhibits/1937/lecture1.htm

This 1,6 mio killed in the camps and 800 000 shot by executions gives the 2,4 million, but this are just the officially recorded numbers. Found convinietly 70-50 years after things took place. Victims of Hitler regime have been studied ever since 1945. There were at least 50 years to hide all the evidence for the soviets.

Solzenitchyn talks about 60 million victims. I am pretty sure he had some ground for his claims. I am also inclined to think that 60 millions is too much, but you never know from 1918-1953 there are 35 years to cover and USSR was twice the size of Germany in population. Not forgetting the folks in Ukraine that died for the artificial famine ( 11 mio was it ? ) all these had to be included too. Those who were deported to Siberia to labour camps without a trial and decleared as enemies of the state. All in all there are whole lotta people that will not show up in that NKVD statistics that are dead and buried by the communists.

Here is link to an alleged massexecution of 30 000 people: http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/09/23/37060.html

As much as I'd like to believe the "nice" 2,4 millions figure I just cannot there are too many facts that talk about a much higher figure.

best regards,

Juke T :|
Solzhenitsyn has no basis for his numbers, no one believes them.


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#33

Post by Kunikov » 14 Oct 2004, 17:14

tonyh wrote:Fine so. The Russan government can kill all the Kulaks they want because "they're not people, like the Jews".

Try telling a Kalmyk family who lost people in the Sibirian wastes "its ok. Don't worry. You weren't targeted targeted by a nation for extermination."

Jesus Christ :roll:

Tony
I don't have to tell anyone anything, these people don't pretend to have suffered on the same scale as those who went through the Holocaust, only ignorant people like you try to convince others that what the Jewish people went through was no worse than dozens of other nationalities. Yet in fact, the differences are large enough.

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Sergey Romanov
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#34

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 Oct 2004, 02:55

These were proven non reliable already by Uninen at the NKVD statistics topic and they didn't add up right.
Unfortunately for you, they were not proven unreliable and still stand.
This 1,6 mio killed in the camps and 800 000 shot by executions gives the 2,4 million, but this are just the officially recorded numbers.
Yes, and these are only reliable numbers.
Victims of Hitler regime have been studied ever since 1945. There were at least 50 years to hide all the evidence for the soviets.
There was no hiding of evidence. Soviet bureaucrats diligently wrote everything down. Then, in Khrushchev's era, when they needed some dirt on Stalin, these figures were summed up (but never published). If anything (i.e. if they're distorted in any way), they are exaggreated, because that was good for Khrushchev (although I don't think they were exaggerated).
Solzenitchyn talks about 60 million victims.
So what?
but you never know from 1918-1953 there are 35 years to cover
Well, even if we accept foolish and unsubstantiated theory that top secret official statisitics is unreliable something was covered up, that still doesn't prove that the numbers were higher. That would mean that we just don't know.
Not forgetting the folks in Ukraine that died for the artificial famine ( 11 mio was it ? )
4.5 millions.
all these had to be included too
OK, let's include them. Together with GULAG stats and the number of executions they still don't trespass even 10 million.
All in all there are whole lotta people that will not show up in that NKVD statistics that are dead and buried by the communists.
Any evidence of this? Or is it your usual fantasy?
As much as I'd like to believe the "nice" 2,4 millions figure I just cannot there are too many facts that talk about a much higher figure.
Why, then, you posted no facts at all?

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#35

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 Oct 2004, 03:16

This is from famous emigre demographer Sergei Maksudov's review of Solzh's antisemitic treatise "200 years together":
http://www.guelman.ru/slava/maksud.htm
In 1981 I wrote Aleksandr Isajevich a letter, informing him that the numbers of Prof. Kurganov, on which he relies in Archipelago, are so exaggerated, that they contradict comon sense. I talk about the following passage:
Emigre professor of statistics Kurganov calculated that thus "comparatively soft internal suppression" [Lenin's words - S.M.] from the beginning of the October Revolution and until 1959 cost us ... 66 (sixty six) million. Of course, we cannot vouch for his figure, but we have no official one. Once the official one appears, specialists can critically compare them. (Archipelago GULAG, part 3, p. 10, YMCA-PRESS, 1974)
The number 66 mln. doesn't include thos who died in WWII, whose number Ivan Kurganov estimates as 45 mln. The absolute impossibility of tens of millions lost in 1930s is obvious from the population statistics of 1926: 71 mln. males and 76 mln. females. I hoped that Solzhenytsin, who has graduated from the physico-mathematical faculty and who has done statistics at Sharashka, will understand the arguments. However, I got the answer, that since the Soviet government does not give us the data, we have the right to make any estimates.
I.e. Solzh has shown the kind of intellectual dishonesty which was also shown by some at this forum. Unfortunately for them, the genuine statistics has been published (by neutral, and even hostile parties), and Kurganov's-Solzh's numbers have been proven to be bogus once again (though they never should have been taken seriously, in the first place).

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#36

Post by tonyh » 15 Oct 2004, 18:02

Kunikov wrote:
tonyh wrote:Fine so. The Russan government can kill all the Kulaks they want because "they're not people, like the Jews".

Try telling a Kalmyk family who lost people in the Sibirian wastes "its ok. Don't worry. You weren't targeted targeted by a nation for extermination."

Jesus Christ :roll:

Tony
I don't have to tell anyone anything, these people don't pretend to have suffered on the same scale as those who went through the Holocaust, only ignorant people like you try to convince others that what the Jewish people went through was no worse than dozens of other nationalities. Yet in fact, the differences are large enough.
And only ignorant people like you choose to minimise the suffering of other peoples and Nations.

Tony

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#37

Post by Kunikov » 15 Oct 2004, 19:49

tonyh wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
tonyh wrote:Fine so. The Russan government can kill all the Kulaks they want because "they're not people, like the Jews".

Try telling a Kalmyk family who lost people in the Sibirian wastes "its ok. Don't worry. You weren't targeted targeted by a nation for extermination."

Jesus Christ :roll:

Tony
I don't have to tell anyone anything, these people don't pretend to have suffered on the same scale as those who went through the Holocaust, only ignorant people like you try to convince others that what the Jewish people went through was no worse than dozens of other nationalities. Yet in fact, the differences are large enough.
And only ignorant people like you choose to minimise the suffering of other peoples and Nations.

Tony
I don't minimize anything, parts of my family went through both terrors and I simply understand how one differs from the other.

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#38

Post by David Thompson » 13 Feb 2005, 03:24


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#39

Post by Art » 28 Nov 2006, 19:58

Topspeed wrote: These were proven non reliable already by Uninen at the NKVD statistics topic and they didn't add up right.
What method this Uninen have used?
This 1,6 mio killed in the camps
Not killed but died.
Solzenitchyn talks about 60 million victims.I am pretty sure he had some ground for his claims.
And what is that ground? Could you specify this?
Found convinietly 70-50 years after things took place
You don't know the issue. This figures were found just after Stalin's death. See for example this document:
http://idf.ru/2/3.shtml

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#40

Post by Johan Björklund » 29 Nov 2006, 00:16

I would say 20 million killed are ok. You must in these numbers include those soldiers Stalin sent forward almost unarmed an
machinegunned by their own if they didn´t attack the germans. you must also calculate the vast number of civilians that died
as a result of not being evacuated from the warzone, but kept there for stopping the germans
from attacking military targets surrounded by civilians.

Stalin has a lot to answer for, he bled Russia to death.

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#41

Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2006, 01:23

Sources, please.

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#42

Post by Griffin76 » 29 Nov 2006, 04:20

Even though archival evidence available post-1991 has significantly reduced the death toll for Soviet Communism from the extremely high estimates of 40-60 million killed suggested during the Cold War era by Solzhenitsyn and others (although some academics such as R. J. Rummel insist the very high estimates were correct: How Many Did Stalin Really Murder?), the death toll is still horrific, and still in the millions (not “thousands” as some revisionist historians have claimed. For more on these revisionists, see In Denial: Historians, Communism & Espionage by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr). And more often than not only deaths from the Stalin era are counted in the Soviet kill tally, while the bloody repressions of Lenin’s era (Red Terror, De-Cossackization, War Communism, etc.) are usually omitted; as well as the repressions after the Stalin era, such as the brutal scorched earth campaigns in Afghanistan during the 1980’s. From the numerous books and articles I've read and many documentaries I’ve seen on the subject, I break down the Soviet death toll like this:

**Nine million repression deaths [Executions: 1.5 million, Gulag: 5 million, Deportations: 1.7 million {out of 7.5 million deported}, and POW's and German civilians: 1 million] (citing Vadim Erlikman’s Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke : spravochnik. Moscow 2004. ISBN 5931651071) to perhaps 15-20 million deaths attributable to the regime overall (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al; A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia by Alexander Yakovlev; Autopsy of an Empire: The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime by Dmitri Volkogonov; Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore; Matthew White’sHistorical Atlas of the Twentieth Century; Stalin: Man of Steel (History Channel program), Joseph Stalin: Red Terror (A&E Biography))

Mainstream media sources:
The BBC ("Historians believe up to 20 million Soviets died during Stalin's rule")

The Associated Press ("Nobody knows exactly how many people perished during the purges of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, but historians generally estimate the death toll at 14 to 20 million.")

CNN ("The vast Communist secret police apparatus during Stalin's rule is believed to have killed at least 15 million people, mainly Soviet citizens, and deported 40 million, including more than 200,000 people from the Baltics.")

Time Magazine (15-20 million - see the "Historical Atlas" link above)

The numerous mass graves discovered all over the former USSR and various satellite countries from the late 80’s to today are by far the most damning evidence of the sheer criminality of the Soviet regime:

Kurapaty: The Road of Death

Bikivnia

Documenting the Death Toll: Research into the Mass Murder of Foreigners in Moscow, 1937–38 Scroll down to “The Butovo Apple Yard”

Wary of its past, Russia ignores mass grave site

Mass grave found at Ukrainian monastery

Mass grave found containing Stalin victims

Mass grave uncovered in Mongolia

*Some 100,000 (citing Red Victory: A History of the Russian Civil War by W. Bruce Lincoln) to 250,000-300,000 (citing The Cheka: Lenin's Political Police by George Leggett) murdered by Lenin’s Bolsheviks during the "Red Terror" and Russian civil war. But it could be higher. In A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891-1924, Orlando Figes says Cheka victims could number "several hundred thousand" and that "it is possible that more people were murdered by the Cheka than died in the battles of the civil war." (pg 649) S. P. Melgunov's The Red Terror in Russia documents some of the most horrific tortures and mass murders committed by the Bolsheviks during this bloody time. Makes for ghastly reading!

*Between 300,000 and 500,000 Cossacks killed or deported in 1919 and 1920 out of a population of no more than a few million (known as "De-Cossackization"; not sure how many of these deaths overlap with the aforementioned Cheka murders - if at all). (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al) Historian Orlando Figes documents the execution of some 12,000 Cossacks, mostly old men, in the early months of 1919 alone.

*5 million perished in the famine of 1921-22, in which the Bolshevik policy of "war communism" (which included forced requisitioning of food and deportation and even execution of peasants who refused to comply) made the famine much worse than it had to be. Compare this to previous Russian famines under the autocratic Tsars which killed no where near as many. (citing A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891-1924 by Orlando Figes and Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime by Richard Pipes)

*Between 7.2 to 9.5 million deaths during dekulakization/collectivization and the massive famine caused by these draconian policies (citing Stalin and His Hangmen: The Tyrant and Those Who Killed For Him by Donald Rayfield and Autopsy of an Empire: The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime by Dmitri Volkogonov)

*Around 700,000 executed during the Great Terror of 1937-38 (citing Stalin's Terror: High Politics and Mass Repression in the Soviet Union edited by Barry McLoughlin and Kevin McDermott); this does not include those who were beaten/tortured to death during "interrogation" or deaths in the gulag during this time, which would put the overall murder tally for the Great Terror somewhere between 950,000 and 1.2 million (citing Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Michael Ellman, Conclusions (2), Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No.7, 2002, 1151-1172) Note: I only cite this source because I agree with his totals killed in the Great Terror. Some of his other (clearly revisionist) conclusions on Soviet Repression are total bunk, IMO.

*Over 1 million Polish citizens deported by November 1940; 30% of whom were dead by 1941 (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore) and over 20,000 reserve officers and intellectuals executed outright (i.e. Katyn) by the NKVD during the Nazi-Soviet. Many thousands more were tortured to death by NKVD sadists in the most unspeakable ways, which included scalding in boiling water, the cutting off of fingers, noses, ears and breasts, gouging out eyes and other outrages (citing Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia by Jan Tomasz Gross)

*A total of 34,250 Latvians and around 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians murdered or deported during Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore) Gruesome pictures of Latvian victims of the NKVD can be found here

*An estimated 30,000 to 40,000 were slaughtered during the "prison massacres," in which the NKVD murdered Ukrainian and Polish political prisoners (this does not include the aforementioned 20,000 killed) wholesale as they retreated from the advancing Wehrmacht in 1941. Most were machine-gunned to death in batches, but sometimes prisons were set on fire and the helpless prisoners burned to death, in other cases grenades were tossed into crowded cells and prisoners were blown to pieces. (citing wikipedia article NKVD massacres of prisoners)

*The ethnic cleansing of minorities during WW2 within the USSR - such as the Crimean Taters, Chechens, Kalmyks, Volga Germans and others where deported wholesale into exile for "collaborating" with the Germans, with hundreds of thousands dying in transit or of privation while in exile. Those who couldn't be deported were sometimes killed. In one incident at Khainakh, one of Beria's henchmen, Mikeil Gvishiani, locked several hundred villagers in stables and set fire to them, gunning down those who broke out. (citing Stalin and His Hangmen: The Tyrant and Those Who Killed For Him by Donald Rayfield)

*An estimated 4.5 million (citing the Pulitzer Prize winning Gulag: A History by Anne Applebaum) deaths in the Gulag. The aforementioned Russian historian Vadim Erlikman comes to a total of 5 million deaths.

*In Mongolia under the Soviet dominated Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party (MPRP), some 30,000 intellectuals, dissidents, noblemen and monks were murdered by Choibalsan and the Soviet-Mongolian KGB. (citing Poisoned Arrows: The Stalin-Choibalsan Mongolian Massacres, 1921-1941 by Shagdariin Sandag, Harry H. Kendall, Frederic E. Wakeman)

*Many thousands of POUM members (including Trotsky's former secretary, Erwin Wolff, the Austrian socialist Kurt Landau, the British journalist ‘Bob’ Smilie and a former lecturer at Johns Hopkins University, José Robles and POUM leader Andrés Nin) were executed or tortured to death in NKVD prisons around Madrid during the Spanish civil war. (citing Modern Times Revised Edition: The World from the Twenties to the Nineties by Paul M. Johnson)

*Numerous assassinations of refugees and defectors abroad (i.e. “special actions” or “wet affairs”), such as Leon Trotsky, Ignace Reiss and Yevhen Konovalets. Other likely (but never 100% proven) victims of Stalin’s “wet affairs” include Walter Krivitsky, Willy Münzenberg and Lev Sedov (Trotsky’s son). One of the more nefarious assassinations on Soviet soil is Solomon Mikhoels “car accident” in Minsk arranged by L. M. Tsanava and S. Ogoltsov at Stalin’s behest (citing historian Gennady Kostyrchenko: http://www.mk.ru/numbers/1806/article60646.htm). Assassinations, which had been an integral part of Stalin’s foreign policy, were curtailed in the post Stalin era but continued nonetheless, even during the “Khrushchev thaw.” A notorious example is the murder of Ukrainian dissidents Lev Rebet and Stepan Bandera by KGB assassin Bogdan Stashinsky. In 1957, the KGB trained Stashinsky to use a spray gun that fired a jet of poison gas from a crushed cyanide ampule. The gas was designed to induce cardiac arrest, making the victim's death look like a heart attack. (citing The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB by Christopher Andrew, Vasili Mitrokhin)

*The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the scorched earth campaigns against the Mujahadeen claimed between 1.5 and 2 million lives, 90% of whom were civilians (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al) Methods of terrorizing the Afghan civilian population included the use of incendiary bombs, napalm, poison gas, miniature mines scattered from the air, and booby trapped toys which were designed to maim the children who picked them up and so demoralize their parents. The KGB and their puppets KhAD (Democratic Republic of Afghanistan's secret police) revived on Afghan soil some of the horrors of its Stalinist past. Amnesty International assembled evidence of ‘widespread and systematic torture of men, women and children’. A common theme in its reports was the presence of Soviet advisors directing the interrogations, much as they had done during the Stalinist purges in Eastern Europe a generation earlier. Najibullah sometimes executed prisoners himself. His preferred method, according to survivors of his prisons, was to beat his victims to the ground, then kick them to death. (citing The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin)

We are talking massive shedding of human blood here; heinous crimes against humanity. From individual assassinations (Leon Trotsky’s murder) to large scale massacres (Katyn) to cold blooded mass murder of its own citizenry on an almost unprecedented scale during peacetime (the Great Terror), the Soviet Empire was one of the most tyrannical regimes of the 20th century that, through murder and misrule, brought about many millions of deaths. The Soviet Union, along with National Socialist Germany, The People’s Republic of China (most likely the deadliest regime in the history of the world, see the 1994 Washington Post article Uncounted Millions: Mass Death In Mao's China and Mao: The Unknown Story by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday) and Democratic Kampuchea, helped make the 20th century the bloodiest in human history. It must be noted, however, that it appears Communism was the greater evil, seeing that of the 4 most vicious regimes of the 20th century, 1 is Fascist (or National Socialist) and 3 are Communist. It is important to make this distinction because while Fascism is considered the epitome of political evil, its totalitarian counterpart is often dismissed as much ado about nothing by various cultural elites and even applauded by some nutcase academics (e.g. Grover Furr). The rise of neo-Stalinism and the partial rehabilitation of Stalin in the former USSR is also a worrying sign (Outrage at revision of Stalin's legacy). This is an insult to the millions of victims of this nefarious system. As with the millions of victims of Fascism, the millions killed by Communism must not be forgotten either.

Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

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#43

Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2006, 07:29

Griffin76 -- Thanks for that excellent and well-sourced post.

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#44

Post by Yuri » 29 Nov 2006, 21:04

Griffin76 wrote: Even though archival evidence available post-1991 has significantly reduced the death toll for Soviet Communism from the extremely high estimates of 40-60 million killed suggested during the Cold War era by Solzhenitsyn and others
Nobody will study a history of France under novels of writer Alexander Djuma
However everyone consider possible to study a history of the Soviet Russia under novels Solzhenitsyn!
Solzhenitsyn only the writer, and, in my opinion, the writer of middle class.
As serious historian Solzhenitsyn of for a long time discredited.


CLUES: Alexandra Reznikova, a volunteer with the human rights group Memorial, looks at bones in a grave site near Toksovo. The grave is thought to be evidence of a Stalin-era mass murder.
IT is thought kills on the spot

One can is thought so, the second can is thought differently, and the third can not is thought of what at all.
All this is more similar to the invention of propagation, instead of on the fact.

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#45

Post by David Thompson » 29 Nov 2006, 22:06

Yuri -- Please post sources for your claims. If you have any links to serious research on the Toksovo grave, our readers would appreciate them.

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