Osteuropa

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Dan
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Osteuropa

Post by Dan » 20 Aug 2002 13:52

Here is a link to an article from a respected European Journal which seems to say that the Auschwitz death tolls are greatly exaggerated. Comments please.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteurop ... eyer1.html

I would like to ask the participants to restrict their comments to this article, namely, that the number of people gassed at Auschwitz may be reduced to around 350,000.

This is a major "revision" of holocaust history, and worthy of discussion without distraction, as pointed out my Michael Mills.

I would like to ask the moderators (in this thread only :D ) to assist with keeping the topic focused.

Thank you

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 20 Aug 2002 15:08

It also focuses the gassings on the outside buildings, how come this?
Is this "Osteuropa" journal really serious?

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Post by Hans » 20 Aug 2002 15:13

Hi dan!

I posted this already in the thread "Can any one translate this from German to English.". I have revised the conlcusion slightly, thanks to Michael for calling this to my attention.
Meyer wrote:The fate of the Hungarian deportees in 1944 needs a separate investigation. If we only rely on the the information from Danuta Czech, 60 trains arrived in Birkenau from mid May to the beginning of July,[34] Each transport consisted of 3,000 people, so accordingly 180,000 arrived, of which 29,210 received a registration number. 110,000 were transferred to different camps,[35] and according to Czech probably in the month of October alone 40,564 were gassed.[36]

[...]

34 Pressac, Menschen [should read: Krematorien - Hans] [Fn. 11], S. 198f., S. 201, liest bei Czech nur 53 ungarische Transporte vom 2. Mai bis 11. Juli 1944 = 160 000 Menschen und schließt recht willkürlich auf insgesamt 240 000 Ankömmlinge. Nach einer zweifelhaften Unterlage 141 Züge in: Christian Gerlach/Götz Aly: Das letzte Kapitel. München 2002, S.275'286.

35 Gerlach/Aly, Das letzte Kapitel [Fn. 34], S. 296, mit der ersten gründlichen Darstellung des Arbeitseinsatzes, ebd., S. 379ff. -- Strzelecki, Endphase [Fn. 31], S. 352, Anm.**, zählt bis zu 100 000. Die Differenz zu den -- wohl übertriebenen -- Meldungen der ungarischen Polizei (Nbg. Dok. NG-5615), die hier nicht näher behandelt werden kann, läßt sich vielleicht mit dem vorzeitigen Abbruch der Aktion, mit Flucht und Deportationen in andere deutsche Lager erklären.

36 Oberst Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg berichtete seinem Vetter Heinrich Graf York von Wartenburg von einem Befehl des RSHA-Chefs Ernst Kaltenbrunner, der 1944 "für 40 000 oder 42 000 ungarische Juden , Sonderbehandlung, in Auschwitz anordne" (Eberhard Zeller. Geist der Freiheit. München 1963, S. 506, Anm. 9). Dies war für Stauffenberg ein Grund, die Vorbereitungen für das Attentat auf Hitler zu beschleunigen.




Meyer has made an obvious error in his calculation. He has adapted the reasoning from Jean-Claude Pressac's second book Die Krematorien von Auschwitz. In fact, Pressac has done the same mistake.

He argues that 60 transports arrived in Auschwitz from Hungary according to Danuta Czech's Kalendarium and since each transport carried 3000 people, 180.000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz. However, Czech had no documents saying that so much transports arrived on that day from SS archives in Auschwitz. She had data on the number of registered prisoners. Based on this data, she could not give the exact number of transports from Hungary. In fact, sometimes she simply wrote

"Aus den Transporten des RSHA aus Ungarn werden nach der Selektion 20 Jüdinnen ins Lager eingewiesen."

implying that she cannot state how many transports arrived in Auschwitz on this day.

The number of people deported from Hungary and the number of transports is well known: 434.351 Jews in 147 transports, according to the reports of Laszlo Ferenczy. Several thousand Jews were deported to Straßhoff, more than 400.000 Jews were sent to Auschwitz. By assuming that only 180.000 Hungarian Jews were sent to Auschwitz, Meyer has simply omitted 220.000 Hungarian Jews in his calculation who were most likely deported to Auschwitz and gassed there.

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Post by Dan » 20 Aug 2002 15:19

Hans, you have an eagle eye for detail.

With the addition of this extra theoretical 220,000 the new totals for those gassed would be just under one half million. So, if your instincts serve you well, we can only cut down the Zyklon killings by one half rather than two thirds.

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Post by Roberto » 20 Aug 2002 15:21

Dan wrote:Here is a link to an article from a respected European Journal which seems to say that the Auschwitz death tolls are greatly exaggerated. Comments please.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteurop ... eyer1.html

I would like to ask the participants to restrict their comments to this article, namely, that the number of people gassed at Auschwitz may be reduced to around 350,000.


If Meyer is right, the number of people who perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau was about half a million, thereof 356,000 in the gas chambers.

Dan wrote:This is a major "revision" of holocaust history, and worthy of discussion without distraction, as pointed out my Michael Mills.


If confirmed, it would be a revision of Holocaust history (not necessarily a “major” one, as historians have long realized the initial overstatement of the importance of that camp for the murder of the Jews) in the proper sense of the word, wholly attributable to a serious scholar and to which those who call themselves "Revisionists" would have contributed nothing at all - a confirmation of the utter uselessness of those folks.

What is hilarious is how David Irving is trying to draw capital from Meyer's study, as if he had had anything to do with it. Irving’s position at the trial against Lipstadt, as he now seems keen to forget, had been the following:

7.8 As it was originally formulated, the case advanced by Irving was that no convincing evidence exists that gas chambers were at the material time in existence at Auschwitz and that there is no evidence that such chambers were commissioned. Further, said Irving, there is no convincing evidence that any Jew at Auschwitz lost his or her life as a result of being gassed (though he conceded from the outset that many died as a result of the epidemics which, due to the appalling lack of hygiene, regularly swept the camp).

[…]

7.11 In the course of the trial Irving modified his position: he was prepared to concede that gassing of human beings had taken place at Auschwitz but on a limited scale. However, he continued to assert that it was not a death factory (totesfabrik). He maintained that there is certainly no question of 500,000 Jews having perished in morgue 1 of crematorium 2 as the Defendants contend.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irv ... 07-01.html

If Irving now maintains that Meyer’s study has vindicated him, he’s being more than a little disingenuous.

As to Meyer’s study itself, my first comment relates to the following statement:

Der französische Sachkenner Jean-Claude Pressac hatte das Schreiben schon sieben Jahre zuvor „eine interne Propagandalüge" der SS genannt.


This is not quite accurate. While it is true that Pressac, in The Crematoria of Auschwitz, considered Bischoff’s figures to be propagandistic exaggerations, Meyer should have pointed out that Pressac considered these figures to be accurate nevertheless due to the fact that those gassed were largely women and children of lesser size and weight.

Another weakness of Meyer’s study, as I see it, lies in what he writes about the Hungarian Jews:

Das Schicksal der aus Ungarn Deportierten 1944 bedarf einer eigenen Untersuchung. Wenn wir uns allein auf die Angaben von Danuta Czech stützen, gelangten von Mitte Mai bis Anfang Juli 60 Züge nach Birkenau.[34] Jeder Transport umfaßte 3 000 Personen, so daß danach 180 000 eingetroffen wären, von denen laut Czech 29 210 eine Registriernummner erhielten. 110 000 wurden in andere Lager überstellt,[35] nach Czech wurden wahrscheinlich 40 564 Menschen allein im Monat Oktober 1944 im Gas getötet.[36]


Meyer refers solely to Danuta Czech’s diary and ignores other sources, namely the Kassa records according to which 398, 213 Hungarian Jews passed through that Hungarian frontier town en route to Auschwitz (see Michael Mills’ first post on the thread

Hungarian Deportation 1944: trains passing through Kassa
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... D=46.topic

of the old forum).

According to Edmund Veesenmayer, Germany’s Plenipotentiary to Hungary, the number of Hungarian Jews deported from 15 May to 9 July 1944 was 437,402. Laszlo Ferenczy, the Hungarian official in charge of ghettoization and concentration of Jews, counted a total of 434,351 during the same period. (John C. Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial, page 43).

If the 437,402 Jews counted by Veesenmayer passed through Auschwitz (there is no indication, to my knowledge, that their initial destination was any other), and if, as Meyer states, a total of 139,210 of them were either registered or transferred to other camps, this means that the difference, i.e. 298,192 Jews from Hungary, perished in the gas chambers.

If only the 398,213 Jews listed in the Kassa records reached Auschwitz-Birkenau, the total gassed would be 398,213 minus 139,210 = 259,003.

If we assume that Meyer’s estimate of 433,000 dead excluding those from the Hungarian deportations is correct, this would mean that the death toll of Auschwitz-Birkenau was either 433,000 + 259,000 = 692,000 or 433,000 + 298,000 = 731,000 – roughly the order of magnitude considered by Jean-Claude Pressac in The Crematoria of Auschwitz.

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Post by Hans » 20 Aug 2002 15:56

Dan wrote:Hans, you have an eagle eye for detail.

:D
Actually it was Holocaust denier Carlo Mattogno who has noticed the error in Pressac's reasoning (and since Meyer simply copys Pressac, in Meyer's) in the essay The "Gassed" People of Auschwitz: Pressac's New Revisions.

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Post by Dan » 20 Aug 2002 15:58

Hans wrote:
Dan wrote:Hans, you have an eagle eye for detail.

:D
Actually it was Holocaust denier Carlo Mattogno who was noticed the error in Pressac's reasoning (and since Meyer simply copys Pressac, in Meyer's reasoning) in the essay The "Gassed" People of Auschwitz: Pressac's New Revisions.


Hmm.. Then perhaps Roberto will have to give credit to revisionists after all :lol:

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Post by Roberto » 20 Aug 2002 16:04

Dan wrote:
Hans wrote:
Dan wrote:Hans, you have an eagle eye for detail.

:D
Actually it was Holocaust denier Carlo Mattogno who was noticed the error in Pressac's reasoning (and since Meyer simply copys Pressac, in Meyer's reasoning) in the essay The "Gassed" People of Auschwitz: Pressac's New Revisions.


Hmm.. Then perhaps Roberto will have to give credit to revisionists after all :lol:


There's a German saying that goes:

Ein blindes Huhn findet auch mal ein Korn.

Even a blind hen finds a grain once in a while.

Apparently never bigger than one or the other error in scholarly reasoning, in this case.
Last edited by Roberto on 20 Aug 2002 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Hans
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Post by Hans » 20 Aug 2002 16:08

Dan wrote:
Hans wrote:
Dan wrote:Hans, you have an eagle eye for detail.

:D
Actually it was Holocaust denier Carlo Mattogno who was noticed the error in Pressac's reasoning (and since Meyer simply copys Pressac, in Meyer's reasoning) in the essay The "Gassed" People of Auschwitz: Pressac's New Revisions.


Hmm.. Then perhaps Roberto will have to give credit to revisionists after all :lol:


Not exactly. Mattogno has simply refuted a thesis, not an accepted historical fact! This is nothing special. We do this all the time here with "revisionist" thesis, don't we? :wink:

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Re: Osteuropa

Post by Hebden » 20 Aug 2002 17:18

Dan wrote:Here is a link to an article from a respected European Journal which seems to say that the Auschwitz death tolls are greatly exaggerated. Comments please.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteurop ... eyer1.html

I would like to ask the participants to restrict their comments to this article, namely, that the number of people gassed at Auschwitz may be reduced to around 350,000.


Our general opinion of the article is not very high. It appears to us as being little more than re-heated Pressac with a hint of garnish. That dish was unappetising enough the first time round. We cannot share Mr. Irving's or Mr. Mills's apparent excitement. Perhaps, the fact of its publication, and not the merit of its arguments, is the most significant point.

At present, we restrict ourself to two comments.

We located the website of the magazine here:

http://www.osteuropa.rwth-aachen.de/frame.html

An abstract of Mr. Meyer's article appears in the archives. We have seen the magazine termed 'reputable' and 'respected' but its focus appears to be current affairs and analysis and not history. We rather doubt that Mr. Meyer submitted this article to peer review. Perhaps, if he had, it may not have seen the light of day.

One of Mr. Meyer's footnotes refers to "19 Carlo Mattogno/Franco Deana: Die Krematoriumsöfen von Auschwitz, in dem ansonsten unzumutbaren Pamphlet von Ernst Gauss (Hrsg.): Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte. Tübingen 1994, S. 310. "

We note that this book is currently banned in Germany. It raises the question as to whether Mr. Meyer is the owner of an illicit copy, has read the article in question on the Internet or relied on some secondary source, e.g. Mr. Zimmerman. In any case, we don't think Mr. Meyer should refer to sources which are banned in his country. He could get somebody arrested.

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Re: Osteuropa

Post by Roberto » 20 Aug 2002 17:31

Hebden wrote:One of Mr. Meyer's footnotes refers to "19 Carlo Mattogno/Franco Deana: Die Krematoriumsöfen von Auschwitz, in dem ansonsten unzumutbaren Pamphlet von Ernst Gauss (Hrsg.): Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte. Tübingen 1994, S. 310. "


My translation of Meyer's footnote:

19 Carlo Mattogno/Franco Deana: Die Krematoriumsöfen von Auschwitz, in the otherwise unbearable pamphlet of Ernst Gauss (editor): Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte, Tübingen 1994, page 310


While it susprises be that Meyer considered Mattogno's writing less "unbearable" than the rest of Gauss' screed, the above makes me wonder what feeling the above may have aroused in Irving, who half-heartedly used an affidavit by the "unbearable" Gauss (aka Germar Rudolf) before the Court of Appeal at the Irving-Lipstadt trial. Details on this "Revisionist" fiasco may be found under the link

http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/

Hebden wrote:We note that this book is currently banned in Germany. It raises the question as to whether Mr. Meyer is the owner of an illicit copy, has read the article in question on the Internet or relied on some secondary source, e.g. Mr. Zimmerman. In any case, we don't think Mr. Meyer should refer to sources which are banned in his country. He could get somebody arrested.


His Plurality seems to know a lot about current German hate speech legislation.

I bet he can tell us under which article of the German criminal code "somebody" might get into legal trouble on account of Meyer's reference to Gauss/Rudolf's "unbearable pamphlet".

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Re: Osteuropa

Post by Hans » 20 Aug 2002 17:33

Hebden wrote: One of Mr. Meyer's footnotes refers to "19 Carlo Mattogno/Franco Deana: Die Krematoriumsöfen von Auschwitz, in dem ansonsten unzumutbaren Pamphlet von Ernst Gauss (Hrsg.): Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte. Tübingen 1994, S. 310. "

We note that this book is currently banned in Germany. It raises the question as to whether Mr. Meyer is the owner of an illicit copy, has read the article in question on the Internet or relied on some secondary source, e.g. Mr. Zimmerman. In any case, we don't think Mr. Meyer should refer to sources which are banned in his country. He could get somebody arrested.


This is surely a very interesting question.
I myself have read this book some weeks ago in the library. But don't tell anybody.

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Post by Hans » 20 Aug 2002 17:50

David Irving wrote about Meyer's study:

It is a pity that Meyer lacks the courage of his convictions. Having attacked me gratuitously in his opening paragraphs, in order to earn the right to probe into the taboo subject of the Auschwitz death-toll at all, he approvingly quotes Mr Justice Gray's perverse Judgment, on the absurdity of even questioning the homicidal nature of Krema I and II, -- and then proves quite brilliantly that (contrary to what Prof Van Pelt argued in his expert witness report and during the Lipstadt trial) I was in fact right: The killing, such as it was, was done off-campus in the two Bauernhäuser outside the camp perimeter, and not in the big concrete state-of-the-art crematorium (Krema) buildings.


This is wrong. Meyer himself admits that the documents and testimonies rather INDICATE (not prove, as Irving says) just experiments to use the basements of the crematoria as killing facility. Further, he admits that he doesn't discuss in detail why this is so ("Hier kann nicht vertieft werden..." Note that this sentence seems to miss in Sailor's translation).

In other words, Meyer has proved nothing at all regarding the question if crematorium II was used as killing facility!

-

So what happened in Auschwitz-Birkenau? Where the crematoria, and in particular crematorium II, used extensivly as killing facilities or do the documents and testimonies rather indicate just experiments to use them as gassing areas?

Concerning crematorium II and III, the following sequence of events can be established according to the construction documents and testimonies:

10. March 1943: Civil engineer Messing is testing the ventilation of the gas chamber for 16 hours

11. March 1943: Messing works for another 11 hours at the ventilation.

13. March 1943: Messing takes the ventilation into operation after 15 hours of work

Since Messing had to work about 40 hours in the gas-chamber after he tested the ventilation, presumably after throwing in Zyklon-B, it is obvious that there were problems with the ventilation. However, it appears that Messing could solve the problem(s) on 13 March.

14. March 1943: First gassing in the gas-chamber according to Henryk Tauber

If Meyer claims that the "pertinent witness testimonies" indicate his thesis, he could have only meant Henryk Tauber, who gave a detailed account on the first killings in crematorium II. The crucial part of his testimony can be read here

Notice in particular the following extract:

"During the cremation of this first transport in mid-March 1943, we worked without interruption for 48 hours, but did not succeed in burning all the bodies, because in the meantime a Greek convoy that had just arrived was also gassed. We were overworked and completely exhausted. We were then taken back to the block and the work continued, thanks to a relief Sonderkommando that also worked at the two Bunkers and comprised about 400 prisoners. I worked in Krematorium II until about mid-April. During my stay, convoys arrived from Greece, France and Holland. In addition, we also burned the corpses of people designated for gassing at selections within the camp. I cannot say how many people were gassed during this period. We worked in two shifts, a day shift and a night shift. On average, we incinerated 2500 corpses a day."

What is described by Tauber is clearly large scale mass-murder in crematorium II.

What is true, however, is that it was planned to use crematorium III temporely as bathing installations with 100 hot showers in May 1943. The Auschwitz SS could do this because they had an overcapacity of killing facilities in May , because crematorium III was still under construction and because they had a lack of bathing installations. However, this was an emergency measurement that was never carried out. Further, it had nothing to do with crematorium II.
Also Crematorium III served as killing facility after its completion, see the drawings of crematorium III by David Olere, a Sonderkommando member, for instance:

http://www.archiv.0catch.com/holocaust/ ... hacht.html

There is plenty of evidence that crematorium II was a killing facility in Auschwitz since the Bunker were dismantled or deactivated. Just to mention one, Greek Jews who were member of the Sonderkommando and arrived to Auschwitz in summer 1944, just before the Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, gave detailed and accurate accounts on gassing in crematorium II. These gassings must have taken place during the Hungarian Operation and the liquidation of the Ghetto Lodz, in summer and autumn 1944.

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Post by Hans » 04 Sep 2002 21:12

The German newspaper Die Welt has recently commented on Meyer's article:

http://www.welt.de/daten/2002/08/28/0828me353058.htx

As expected, the author strongly disagrees with Meyer's partly utterly absurd assertions. Interestingly, the author seems to have contacted Meyer to clarify his woolly claims about the activity of the crematoria gas-chambers. His response (my translation):

"The gas-chambers of the Birkenau crematoria I and II were except in the experimental phase evidently hardly in operation, III or IV mainly in the most terrible month October[sic!] 1944 only."

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Post by Dan » 04 Sep 2002 22:44

My computer dies, I get online at the local library after a few day, and Hans is a Moderator, and there are three stars under my name. 8O

Hans as a Moderator is a stroke of genius on the part of Marcus, but what gives with the stars?

Regards

Dan

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