Soap

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wm
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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2011 10:58

But we know that he was accused of having col laborated with the enemy, the Germans, in perpetrating a grave crime against his own, the Polish people. What is more, in the eyes of the Poles he had betrayed his nation.

That's strange, he was born in Danzig and was citizen of the Free City of Danzig. He hadn't betrayed Poland because it wasn't his nation. In fact after the war as a citizen of the Free City he had to prove he was a Pole if he didn't want to be deported.
If he was in the Deutsche Volksliste it means he wasn't German enough to have full citizenship rights. If he were a little less German he would be send to a concentration camp.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by michael mills » 08 Feb 2011 14:37

This what the Neander article says about the corpses found at the Danzig Anatomical Institute:
The commission of forensic experts of May 16 and 17, 1945, however, reported precise figures:

Found 148 corpses (18 women, 4 children, 126 men and 1 ape corpse), 82 corpses without heads (two female)....
Kaelber is claiming that euthanasia of children was still being perpetrated at Conradstein in 1944; the 108 victims of euthanasia in 1944 estimated by Kaelber were all children or youths.
Child and Youth "Euthanasia" Victims at Kocborowo Hospital

Year.............................................. Deaths

1939................................................. 1

1940................................................. 7

1941................................................ 19

1942................................................ 73

1943............................................... 142

1944............................................... 108

Source: Author's calculations, based on Jaroszewski 1989.
It is obvious that Kaelber has no real knowledge of the events at the Danzig Anatomical Institute, since he parrots the story about Spanner's "experimental production of soap from human fat". His statement that child victims of euthanasia may have been delivered to the Danzig Institute must be seen as uninformed speculation.

Since any victims of euthanasia at Conradstein in 1944 were children, but only four child corpses were found in the Danzig Anatomical Institute, the vast majority being adult males, it follows that the overwhelming majority of the corpses delivered to the Institute from Conradstein cannot have been the victims of euthanasia practised there. They had presumably died natural deaths.

If 108 children and youths were indeed subjected to euthanasia at Conradstein in 1944, it is clear that their corpses were not delivered to the Danzig Anatomical Institute to be turned into anatomical specimens, except possibly in four cases, and even that is not certain.
Last edited by michael mills on 08 Feb 2011 14:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by scruffy » 08 Feb 2011 14:45

yes ,..i am sure they all died of natural causes ,.... they were probably pampered into their ripe old age -- i am positive that the Reich and their fine doctors did every thing humanly possible to save their lives ---

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by michael mills » 08 Feb 2011 14:50

yes ,..i am sure they all died of natural causes ,.... they were probably pampered into their ripe old age -- i am positive that the Reich and their fine doctors did every thing humanly possible to save their lives ---
Do we really have to put up with this sort of puerile nonsense interrupting an otherwise informative exchange and analysis of useful information?

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by siwiec » 08 Feb 2011 15:10

michael mills wrote: Since any victims of euthanasia at Conradstein in 1944 were children, but only four child corpses were found in the Danzig Anatomical Institute,
It is not certain that all were children, even though Kaelber mentions only those victims. His table shows only "Child and Youth "Euthanasia" Victims", 350 of them between years 1939-1944. But he also writes:

"The total number of patients who either died there or were transported off to their death is estimated to have been approx. 4,000."

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2011 20:51

michael mills wrote:
Kaelber is claiming that euthanasia of children was still being perpetrated at Conradstein in 1944; the 108 victims of euthanasia in 1944 estimated by Kaelber were all children or youths.
The number seems low. There were 2100 patients at Conradstein in 1939. It was (and still is) a large institution:

Image
from http://wolneforumgdansk.pl/

And we know that victims of euthanasia at Conradstein were delivered to the Danzig Anatomical Institute. There are letters from Spanner to Schimanski-Siemens (the director of Conradstein Institution) and to Kurt Rieben (head of Gestapo in Conradstein) asking for more "material". In reply, Schimanski declared that all available material would be send to Spanner.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by wm » 08 Feb 2011 22:08

uberjude wrote:I found a PDF of the Neander piece: http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/mar ... aseGSR.pdf
more from Dr. Joachim Neander and lots of information about Spanner's soap, the IPN, Polish politcs and society, victims of the soap-making, "Monuments of Soap" and a ceremonial soap burial is here:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... tical.html

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Feb 2011 13:00

This is one of those stories that is so inherently improbable that it requires the proponents to have exceptionally strong evidence.

Of what value could such an exercise be? Was it remotely probable that the Nazis, who were fixated on their racial superiority, would ever seriously consider making a product from the rendered flesh of those they considered racially inferior, the purpose of which could only be to smear on their own bodies, or to wash the clothes they wore, or wash up the crockery they ate off?

Besides, it conflicted with the functioning of the crematoria at the gas chambers, which apparently required the combustibility of the same human flesh at higher temparatures to help power the furnaces.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by michael mills » 10 Feb 2011 06:21

And we know that victims of euthanasia at Conradstein were delivered to the Danzig Anatomical Institute. There are letters from Spanner to Schimanski-Siemens (the director of Conradstein Institution) and to Kurt Rieben (head of Gestapo in Conradstein) asking for more "material". In reply, Schimanski declared that all available material would be send to Spanner.
What is the source of this information please?

The fact that Spanner may have asked the Conradstein mental hospital for "material" does not of itself prove that cadavers delivered from there to the Danzig Anatomical Institute were victims of euthanasia. They might just as well have died of natural causes.

Certainly, the staff and patients of the Kocborowo mental hospital, at that time a Polish institution, were butchered by men of the SS in the winter of 1939-40. We know that the reason for the slaughter at that time of inmates of mental hospitals in the Danzig-West Prussia area, ie of formerly Polish hospitals, was to make those facilities available for use by the Wehrmacht and by Baltic German refugees who were being settled in the area. Once the facilities were being used by ethnic Germans, there was no need for the "euthanasia" to continue.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by michael mills » 10 Feb 2011 06:56

Here are some links to the euthanasia of inmates of the Kocborowo mental hospital:

http://www.tiergartenstrasse4.org/Killi ... a,119.html

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=jHQ ... in&f=false

it is estimated that some 7,700 mental patients from hospitals in Danzig-West Prussia, Wartheland, East Prussia and Pomerania were killed in the territory annexed from Poland between September 1939 and early 1940, most by shooting and some by gassing with bottled carbon monoxide.

But I have not found any indication that adult euthansia was still being practised in this area as laye as 1944. it appears that once all the hospitals had been cleared of the unwanted mental patients, the euthanasia came to an end.

So whether patients at the Conradstein mental hospital were deliberately killed in 1944 in order to provide "material" for rendering into anatomical specimens is still an open question. it is not impossible, but it does not seem all that likely since the normal need of an anatomical institute for cadavers for teaching purposes (including the preparation of specimens) could be covered by normal deaths, or from legal executions.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by little grey rabbit » 10 Feb 2011 12:08

uberjude wrote:There is, at this point, no question that Spanner made soap from human fat. Based on Neander, I wouldn't even say it was an experiment. But it was hardly the kind of mass production that is usually implied by the whole "the Nazis made soap out of Jewish fat" legend (and, of course, the corpses weren't Jews.)
In fact there is enormous questionmarks. The easiest way to understand this story is to think of it as a deliberate propaganda hoax by a victorious army doing what victorious armies always do and make up stories about their enemies.

We know that this was seen as a big thing by the Red Army because as soon as they started flying journalists or witnesses the two things they showed them was Auschwitz and the Soap Factory.

I see 3 problems with Dr Neander and the IPN's claims (bearing in mind they have quite different views).

1. None of the affidavits that I have seen describe anything like a normal soap making process nor does Dr Neander's accidental by-product suggestion suffice as an explanation. To make soap you need to combine lye with purified fat. That means rendering the corpse (horse or human) for fat. I assume that would require a heating process to allow the fat to liquify and come out of the tissue. Without purified fat all you will ever get is a revolting mess. Dr Neander says because corpses were macerated in an alkaline solution, soap will automatically form. But that is not the case, because soap dissolves in water and any fat molecules and NaOH that combined would have just remained dissolved in water. It would be like trying to extract soap from used bathwater (technically possible of course but rather unlikely). Maceration of a corpse results in entire tissue lifting off but does not really force fat to liquify and flow out of the tissues and certainly won't result in purified fat. In short, I don't hold with Dr Neander's claim that soap is an automatic byproduct of skeleton preparation.

The other issues involve the IPN and its claims of testing some soap. I had a discussion via Dr Neander with someone involved in it - but I don't know who that person was. The answers I got were not enlightening, slow and some what less than full and frank (for which I blame the 3rd party not the intermediary, Dr Neander). To be honest, I think Dr Neander was originally a bit peeved by the IPN's claim and hinted at dark political forces involved, in part at least, because he was annoyed that it upset his carefully conducted and documented researches:

2. Would the methodology the IPN's scientist used have determined the difference between a human lipid profile and other mammals?
I have never seen the results of the testing published in any scientific journal so its difficult for me to make comments. But question I have is what was the "signature" of lipid ratios used to determine this soap came from human fat and not another mammal. There was never a proper answer given, a very quick search of the literature didn't come up with any common reference values for a human versus a pig or a horse or a cow, then again I don't think there is much call for this type of thing. Question via Dr Neander (but NOT Dr Neander's answers) the replies were most unsatisfactorily and seemed to be trying to baffle with the names of technology used and software. But I know the technology and I know the software and words like "trace" are not going to convince. The answer Dr Neander finally passed on from this anonymous third party was as follows:
There were two samples of soap, one came from the Hague, one came from the private collection of a journalist. The one from the private collection of the journalist could not be distinguished between human or pig lipid profiles. The one from the Hague was determined to be human. No further information regarding distinguishing lipid signatures could be obtained

Make of that what you will.

3. The final issue concerns the Hague and chain of custody.

The IPN in its press release said they retrieved the sample from the Hague. When I pressed Dr Neander and the third party for the archival reference there, the third party finally gave nothing more than the Nuremberg number of USSR XXXX.
Repeated attempts by me to get an answer from the Hague as to whether they have an archival holding of soap has never resulted in a single reply, apart from "Your email has been passed on to the responsible department." If anyone, anyone can give me the email address of someone in the archives there who will answer and confirm or deny they have a holding of soap, I would be immensely grateful.

Suffice to say, it would seem unlikely. Nuremberg did not, as a rule, keep original documentation. Their practice was to take a photostat, type up a german version and an english version, prepare an evidence analysis and verifty as true copies and then return the document to the supplying authority. Its difficult to see this would not have happened with Soap....assuming anything more than a photo was supplied in the first place. After all, the Soap might have been needed for war crimes trials back in Poland.

So until proved otherwise, I treat the claim that the Hague has a bar of human soap in its basement with upmost scepticism. And if they do not, the entire chain of custody falls apart and with it the IPN's claim

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by uberjude » 10 Feb 2011 14:24

I'm not at all interested in soap in the Hague, because its absence doesn't prove or disprove anything. You have taken the all too typical approach adopted by deniers and fellow travelers. You've made assertions which you haven't supported even when asked, and you've asked for evidence which, when presented, you've ignored, and you've offered new arguments which only distract, but don't prove or disprove anything.

You stated in an earlier post, regarding Spanner's testimony:
But given this was testimony given under some threat of deportation to Poland
As per the rules of the board, I've asked you to provide evidence for the claim, which you haven't done yet (and, in fact, we've since seen that Spanner wasn't wanted in Poland).

Furthermore, you asked, in the same post:
So aside from the member of the Polish resistance who Spanner used to threaten with handing over to the Gestapo and conceivably could have a grudge - did any other member of the Faculty give evidence about manufacture of human derived cleaning products
I provided the information from Witton and Neeley, which you haven't addressed.

As for you latest post, again, you ignore the evidence that exist, and propose some contradictory red herrings, arguing
1. That this is
a deliberate propaganda hoax
2.
None of the affidavits that I have seen describe anything like a normal soap making process nor does Dr Neander's accidental by-product suggestion suffice as an explanation
Let's leave aside the obvious--of course this wasn't a "normal" soap making process, because Spanner wasn't making "normal soap." This is a bit like arguing that there were no gassings in Auschwitz because the descriptions of them don't correspond to the normal protocol for gassings in American prisons. But let's look at your larger argument

According to you, this is simultaneously a deliberate effort to make up a story to demonize the Nazis, but, at the same time, the story they created actually doesn't do that? Meaning, this was supposed to be an effort by the Soviets to depict the Germans as monsters who made corpses into soap, but then, the story which you claim they contrived, which Spanner was coerced into admitting to, simply involved one individual, who primarily used corpses of executed German prisoners and sanitarium patients who may have simply died from natural causes, in order to produce a soapy by-product which was used primarily for preparing anatomical models, and some of which was used for cleaning up in the institute (oh, and some of it might have been sold elsewhere on the black market. Oh, and then, having created this brilliant propaganda coup, they don't actually charge the figure involved with any crime.


so to reiterate, everybody employed in the Institute who testified spoke of the soap-making process, ranging from Spanner himself (who, at this point, had no reason to admit to making soap out of corpses--there was no evidence of coercion, and it's hardly an admission that reflects well on him) to the British POWS, who certainly were at no risk from the NKVD. In response to that testimony, you offer various contradictory, and essentially meaningless speculations. Evidence has been presented in the form of the testimony from Spanner, Wiltton, Neeley and others. If you can disprove that, please do so--the absence of a bar of soap at the Hague doesn't prove or disprove anything. As for your comments regarding the production of soap itself, this is a fairly anonymous forum. If you have the chemistry credentials to challenge Neander's assertions in some peer-reviewed journal, that would be great. At this point, though, he's made those assertions in such a medium, and, seeing as how how the soap wasn't "normal soap" but rather a sort industrial semi-soap, nothing you've said (even if true), is particularly problemeatic.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by David Thompson » 10 Feb 2011 15:51

little grey rabbit -- You wrote:
Repeated attempts by me to get an answer from the Hague as to whether they have an archival holding of soap has never resulted in a single reply, apart from "Your email has been passed on to the responsible department." If anyone, anyone can give me the email address of someone in the archives there who will answer and confirm or deny they have a holding of soap, I would be immensely grateful.
Generally, archivists have a lot of work to do, and deal with many inquiries every day, so they may not have given your requests the priority you think they merit. You may have to convince them that your request isn't frivolous or the result of one individual's morbid curiosity, in order to focus their undivided attention on your needs. For all we know right now, their holdings may not even be open to the general public.

However, Carlos Whitlock Porter claimed to have seen and sniffed the soap exhibit there, some time prior to 2003. See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 88#p217488

See also lukeo's 2003 post refering to a similar exhibit in Poland at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 40#p284640

Note -- This topic will be merged tomorrow with the longest open thread on the subject -- 16 pages long -- at:

"Soap"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6275

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by wm » 10 Feb 2011 16:59

little grey rabbit wrote: The IPN in its press release said they retrieved the sample from the Hague. When I pressed Dr Neander and the third party for the archival reference there, the third party finally gave nothing more than the Nuremberg number of USSR XXXX.
The sample was retrieved on January 20, 2006. The number is CCCP-393 not USSR-393. The main Polish expert was prof. Andrzej Stołyhwo. You can find his e-mail here: http://sggw.pl/en/node/2927

little grey rabbit wrote: The one from the private collection of the journalist could not be distinguished between human or pig lipid profiles.
It so called the brown soap. It was tested in 2003. A sample of blood from 1929 was used as comparison. The results were: human DNA - negative, human blood - negative, fats usually found in butter and beef were present, abrasive material indicating intention to provide the soap with practical qualities was found.

In 2006 samples from the brown soap and from the Hague soap was tested using gas chromatography, a sample of human fat from 1946 was used for comparison. In both samples C18:1, C20:1, C22:1 trans isomers was found, it means they contain human fat but there is a small possibility it's fat from pigs fed on kitchen waste and food leftovers.

Additionally, bars of soap labeled RIF 501, RIF 0145, RIF 0046 from Stutthof Museum were tested and only fish fats were found.
Last edited by wm on 11 Feb 2011 00:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soap made from human corpses at Gdańsk/Danzig

Post by wm » 10 Feb 2011 17:03

michael mills wrote:
And we know that victims of euthanasia at Conradstein were delivered to the Danzig Anatomical Institute. There are letters from Spanner to Schimanski-Siemens (the director of Conradstein Institution) and to Kurt Rieben (head of Gestapo in Conradstein) asking for more "material". In reply, Schimanski declared that all available material would be send to Spanner.
What is the source of this information please?
it's from this book: http://www.wydawnictworozawiatrow.pl/in ... e&Itemid=1
The letters survived and are held in Polish archives.
michael mills wrote: The fact that Spanner may have asked the Conradstein mental hospital for "material" does not of itself prove that cadavers delivered from there to the Danzig Anatomical Institute were victims of euthanasia. They might just as well have died of natural causes.
It seems it was not the case. Unfortunately it I have only Polish sources for this, e.g. this page: http://www.schizofrenicy.info/cms/pages ... szyzmu.php says:

From 1942 to 1944 about 500 children with disabilities were killed with overdoses of Luminal in pavilions XB and XIB of Kocborowo hospital ... In the years 1940-1944 the death rate was as high as 568 per year, 2843 in total.

michael mills wrote: We know that the reason for the slaughter at that time of inmates of mental hospitals in the Danzig-West Prussia area, ie of formerly Polish hospitals, was to make those facilities available for use by the Wehrmacht and by Baltic German refugees who were being settled in the area. Once the facilities were being used by ethnic Germans, there was no need for the "euthanasia" to continue.
But Hitler's obsession with "racial hygiene" did't stop in 1941 and I suppose his henchmen knew this very well.

Although Hitler officially ordered the termination of the general ''euthanasia'' project in 1941, partly in response to public criticism by some German clergymen, the killing of children continued. Indeed, it probably increased, but was conducted in a more haphazard fashion. Estimates based on various trial materials and other evidence indicate that 5,000 children were killed between 1939 and 1945, but the total was probably much higher.
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/21/magaz ... wanted=all

But the winding up of the T4 program did not bring the killing of people with disabilities to an end, although from the end of 1941 the killing became less systematic. Lifton documents that the killing of both adults and children continued to the end of the war, on the local initiative of institute directors and party leaders. The methods reverted to those employed before the gas chambers were employed: lethal injection, or simple starvation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4#cite_ref-64

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