Soap

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David Thompson
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Re: Soap

Post by David Thompson » 14 Feb 2011 03:14

Michael -- You wrote:
The issue is not was in the minds of the deliverymen.
Perhaps in your mind, but that's not the way you phrased your question:
I would like to ask whether any members of the Forum or of the Forum staff believe that human corpses were delivered to the Danzig Anatomical Institute specifically for the purpose of producing soap from their fat content . . . .
Your question asks for the specific purpose of the delivery, and we don't know what the purpose of the delivery was. If you have a different question, ask it. Please take the time to say clearly what you are asking for, rather than call for folks to guess at your meaning. I don't think that's too much to ask, and it will save time for both of us, as well as our readers.

little grey rabbit
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Re: Soap

Post by little grey rabbit » 15 Feb 2011 07:02

David Thompson wrote:little grey rabbit -- You skipped over my question:
What is the name of the organization you contacted in the Hague, which supposedly has the soap exhibit?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1557912

Please answer it.

Your posts to this thread have raised an inference of impropriety or lack of diligence in the institution holding the "human soap" exhibit. For our readers to evaluate your suspicion, it is necessary to find out (1) if your enquiries were directed to the proper institution at "the Hague;" and (2) whether such exhibits or holdings at the institution are open to the public at large. If the answer to either question is no, we can discard this portion of your argument and move on to your other suspicions, inferences and speculations addressed by uberjude.
Well, I would say I used affidavits and real recipes for homemade soap to try and work out the reliability of the affidavits, but opinions can differ.

At least twice and I think three times I have gone to the ICJ website. Found the page that talks about the IMT trials archive\s here :http://www.icj-cij.org/registry/index.p ... &p2=4&p3=0
If you click on the appropriate link at the bottom "All questions regarding consultation of these archives should be addressed in writing to the Registrar of the Court. ", it sends you to this page
http://www.icj-cij.org/homepage/contact.php
This page as an email form
http://www.icj-cij.org/homepage/mail.php

However, I do not allege misconduct on the part of the Hague, I allege misconduct on the part of the IPN or person or persons with in it.
As you know as well as I, Nuremberg did not keep originals longer than was needed. Generally the originals were returned to the various investigative bodies of the member states. So for example, the Krakow Investigating Judge Jan Sehn would send materials to Nuremberg, they would be registered, a photostat etc made. They may have been kept for as long as the trial took, or they may have been returned sooner. Regardless, they were then returned and available for use in trials in Poland etc.

It is entirely possible Soap is an exception. I would just like to check, that is all. However, from the materials that wm presented, where ever it was kept, the soap of 2006 certainly looks the same as the soap of 1946.

To illustrate what I mean regarding chain of custody, the issue arose in a series of pers. comm. between me and Dr Neander, where I tried and failed to get the data regarding the lipid fingerprint used to make the determination. IIRC and these seems confirmed by wm, he stated that there were two (or if we include RIF soap 3 samples).
1. RIF soap - fish oil [info from wm]
2. CCCP 393 soap - human fat [info from J.N]
3. private soap. - human or pig fat [info from J.N]

To explain chain of custody, let me construct the following scenario, (leaving aside the question of why can we determine one to be definitely human and one only as human or pig). Suppose a dishonest person inside the IPN, knowing full well that no one made human soap should have procured some brown sticky mess (I believe that was the description) derived from human fat and in the process of chain of custody contrived the labels to be switched.

Then the outcome would have been
1. RIF soap - fish oil
2. CCCP 393 soap - pig fat
3. private soap of modern derivation - human fat.

Note, I am not alleging this happened, I am just saying this is what chain of custody issues concern themselves with and why this methodology and safeguards arose. It would be what would be raised in a court of law. It was very unwise of the IPN to start testing soap from unknown sources and one wonders why they did.

Of course, and I acknowledge this as pure speculation, the irony of this scenario is that the only people who then would have ever made human fat soap (albeit never used for cleaning purposes) in the entire history of the world.......would be Poles.

little grey rabbit
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Re: Soap

Post by little grey rabbit » 15 Feb 2011 07:13

As much as appreciate the work Dr Neander did in digging around very obscure archives - and that is very commendable - I was always frustrated in what I thought was a refusal to rigorously engage with all the evidence.

He insisted that soap could be made as an accidental byproduct of skeleton preparation and there is some testimony from Spanner to support this interpretation.

But the testimony of Mazur and the two British POWs is really clear.
I boiled the soap out of the bodies of women and men. The
process of boiling alone took several days -- from 3 to 7.
During two manufacturing processes, in which I directly
participated, more than 25 kilograms of soap were produced. The
amount of human fat necessary for these two processes was 70 to
80 kilograms collected from some 40 bodies. The finished soap
then went to Professor Spanner, who kept it personally.
The work for the production of soap from human bodies has, as
far as I know, also interested Hitler's Government. The
Anatomic Institute was visited by the Minister of Education,
Rust; the Reichsgesundheitsfuhrer, Doctor Conti; the Gauleiter
of Danzig, Albert Forster; as well as professors from other
medical institutes.
I used this human soap for my personal needs, for toilet and
for laundering. For myself I took 4 kilograms of this soap.
In all three cases they say flesh or fatty tissue was removed from the skeletonising bath and then put into a special vat and boiled with caustic soda (lye or sodium hydro-oxide). If that happened, thats not accidental.

So either Spanner was lying, or Mazur and the two POW's were giving false affidavits - personally I think the latter. But I think to properly address this issue you cannot just try and work out what happened, you have to include the evidence you are rejecting as unreliable and state why you are rejecting it.

I would also suggest it would be impossible for other professors and medical staff not to know about this special vat and what was happening. The whole story is surreal.

uberjude
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Re: Soap

Post by uberjude » 15 Feb 2011 14:00

As a matter of fact, Neander does "engage all the evidence." He specifically notes that the British POW testimony description of the soap-making becomes more elaborate over time, which he suggests is a result of coaxing by the interrogators.

But you now have made an interesting admission--that in your opinion, Spanner (whom you earlier alleged to have been providing false testimony under supposed threat of deportation to Poland) was telling the truth. Is that correct?

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wm
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Re: Soap

Post by wm » 15 Feb 2011 22:36

little grey rabbit wrote: 3. private soap. - human or pig fat [info from J.N]
Well, there is a small possibility it is pig fat but consider this: it's a war, German agriculture is falling apart, shortages are everywhere, you have your ration coupons but you can't find fat in your ersatz pork, ersatz milk or ersatz sausages. What is the probability that you find pig fat in your stinking ersatz soap?
little grey rabbit wrote: So either Spanner was lying
What do you expect? "I made soap from humans, please send me to Siberia for 25 to life?" In a best-case scenario it would have been the end of his science career.
little grey rabbit wrote: or Mazur and the two POW's were giving false affidavits - personally I think the latter. But I think to properly address this issue you cannot just try and work out what happened, you have to include the evidence you are rejecting as unreliable and state why you are rejecting it.
You said this before, it was just revenge but please include the evidence that, Spanner provided Mazur with a glowing certificate of employment, just days before left Danzig in 1945 ( http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/index. ... and&word2= ) and he tried to rise Mazur's salary in 1942 (the same source as before).

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wm
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Re: Soap

Post by wm » 15 Feb 2011 23:26

little grey rabbit wrote: Note, I am not alleging this happened, I am just saying this is what chain of custody issues concern themselves with and why this methodology and safeguards arose. It would be what would be raised in a court of law. It was very unwise of the IPN to start testing soap from unknown sources and one wonders why they did.
This is the chain of custody for the brown soap:
Jan Górski, a laborer in the Danzig Anatomical Institute just after the war, took home a few bars of Spanner's soap for cleaning and washing purposes. During the seventies he gave a piece of the soap to Zbigniew Zaniewski. Zaniewski gave the piece to Tadeusz Szkutnik and he passed it on to IPN in 2002.
little grey rabbit wrote: the issue arose in a series of pers. comm. between me and Dr Neander, where I tried and failed to get the data regarding the lipid fingerprint used to make the determination
Dr Joahim Neander is 72 years old, you are really expecting too much from him.

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wm
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Re: Soap

Post by wm » 16 Feb 2011 01:08

michael mills wrote: - that the purpose of the delivery of human corpses to the Danzig Anatomical Institute was to prepare anatomical specimens from them for normal use in teaching surgical techniques,
that's correct
michael mills wrote: - that the so-called soap was "maceration grease", a by-product of the process of melting down the corpses in order to obtain bones and cartilage for the preparation of the anatomical specimens,
the maceration grease, not the soap, was by-product of chemical maceration of body parts. Human fatty soap was produced refining maceration grease.
michael mills wrote: - and that the maceration grease was officially used as a lubricant for the anatomical specimens
that's possible but it's just one man's testimony. In Spanner's numerous works using human fatty soap for impregnation is never mentioned and this technique is not mentioned in the relevant literature.
michael mills wrote: and also perhaps unofficially for cleaning purposes within the Institute.
We have a primary witness to this and his relations with Spanner appear to have been good. I think it is the other way around: perhaps the maceration grease was officially used as a lubricant and it was used unofficially for cleaning purposes within the Institute.

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Ponury
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Re: Soap

Post by Ponury » 28 Feb 2011 19:29

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 77118.html

Photo: Mazur arrested by polish bloody comunist police called "Bezpieka" (MBP in Gdansk) :) It`s wrong date of this photo. Not 12.05.1946 - correct is 12.05.1945. "Bezpieka" on 3 May street in Gdansk. In 1946 Mazur`s died from one year...


Today red house "soap factory" stay in the same place. Horror - dirty red blocks, chimney. This house is placed on "Victory Alley" in Gdansk, big road. From next street "Tuwima" it`s look behind from parking of "ZUS" polish goverment building.

Brrr.... I saw this red house yesterday.

little grey rabbit
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Re: Soap

Post by little grey rabbit » 01 Mar 2011 04:54

Image

Caption: Romania, Postwar, The burial of soap collected by the Jewish community.​

http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 30463.html

How can mere words capture the tragedy of this moment?

Brumbar
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Re: Soap

Post by Brumbar » 01 Mar 2011 11:36

I can think of a few mere words: Not sure what that photo depicts given its lack of quality. Yad Vashem probably should be a little less loose with its captioning but without the back-story to the photo it's difficult to say what this image truly represents. Perhaps those depicted believed they were burying soap made from human remains. That would be tragic. It would also be tragic if the photo and the caption are a fraud. Tragedies like this abound on the internet. Why, just the other day I came across a website that promotes Birkenau crematoria denial. Strange as it may seem, some people can be made to believe anything. Which is tragic.

little grey rabbit
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Re: Soap

Post by little grey rabbit » 01 Mar 2011 12:16

Sounds interesting Brumbar, do you have a link?

As you may know I run a blog that suggests there was only one crematorium located in Birkenau at the site known today as bunker 2. And that the buildings we know as Krema II and III may have been in fact provisional bakeries - since so many survivors seemed convinced that they looked like bakeries from the outside.

So to think there was a whole website out there would be quite exciting.

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wm
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Re: Soap

Post by wm » 01 Mar 2011 22:00

The caption is correct, it says: he burial of soap collected by the Jewish community, not burial of soap made of Jewish flesh. Monuments that were erected to mark the burial of the soap that supposedly was made of Jewish flesh are standing to this day in European graveyards.
Lupu Gutman, a Romanian filmmaker, in his documentary "Monuments of Soap" shows a few of them and there is a shot showing a soap burial shortly after the end of the war in Romania.

Sampo Jämbeck
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Re: Soap

Post by Sampo Jämbeck » 03 Mar 2011 23:32

I have always wondered this whole soap myth.
One thing bothers me. Why would "herrenrasse" use or even produce soap from what they considered to be
filthy and degenerate "untermensch"?

David Thompson
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Re: Soap

Post by David Thompson » 04 Mar 2011 00:32

Sampo Jämbeck -- You asked:
One thing bothers me. Why would "herrenrasse" use or even produce soap from what they considered to be filthy and degenerate "untermensch"?
Why not? No sense of racial superiority kept the NS-regime from stealing clothes, shoes, used underwear, hair, eyeglasses or even gold-filled teeth and dentures from "filthy and degenerate 'untermensch'." See:

Inventory lists of personal property confiscated from Jews in Aktion Reinhardt:

Document L-18: Solution of Jewish Question in Galicia [translation], in Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume VII: US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: GPO, 1947. pp. 755-770.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 279#554279
NO-060, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 5: United States v. Oswald Pohl, et. al. (Case 4: 'Pohl Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1950. pp. 704-705.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 546#578546
Document NO-061, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 5: United States v. Oswald Pohl, et. al. (Case 4: 'Pohl Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1950. pp. 706-709.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 553#578553
Document NO-2003, in Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10. Vol. 5: United States v. Oswald Pohl, et. al. (Case 4: 'Pohl Case'). US Government Printing Office, District of Columbia: 1950. pp. 709-712.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 558#578558

as well as many other threads in this section.

We also don't know what kind of marketing campaign Dr. Spanner envisioned that might make people want to use soap made from dead folks, or whether he planned to mention it. But your question takes us off-topic, so let's get back on it.

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Ponury
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Re: Soap

Post by Ponury » 12 May 2011 22:19


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