Soap

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Dan
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Re: proof

Post by Dan » 22 Aug 2002 12:01

Roberto wrote:
Dan wrote:The Nizkor site claims that there is soap on display, but I think that is old information that hasn't been corrected yet. At least the Nizkor site doesn't tell where the soap is.
Where do they claim that?
"No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

Emphasis is mine.
Roberto, the claim on the Nizkor site was provided by you yourself, on this very thread:
It seems that Stutthof manufactured soap. Some historians claim that
the Nazi manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor.
However, cakes are on display; and witnesses have testified that soap was
made at Stutthof from the fat of dead Jews.
I just want to know where they are.

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Roberto
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Re: proof

Post by Roberto » 22 Aug 2002 12:08

Dan wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Dan wrote:The Nizkor site claims that there is soap on display, but I think that is old information that hasn't been corrected yet. At least the Nizkor site doesn't tell where the soap is.
Where do they claim that?
"No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

Emphasis is mine.
Roberto, the claim on the Nizkor site was provided by you yourself, on this very thread:
It seems that Stutthof manufactured soap. Some historians claim that the Nazi manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor.
However, cakes are on display; and witnesses have testified that soap was made at Stutthof from the fat of dead Jews.
I just want to know where they are.
That claim is made in a Usenet article transcribed on the Nizkor site.

I wouldn't call it a claim of the Nizkor site, which it would be if included e.g. in the "66 Q & A".

Dan
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Post by Dan » 22 Aug 2002 12:36

Still, we need to determine whether or not any example anywhere in the world exist. This will help with assessing the credibility of the USSR exibit mentioned in the list of evidence. If Mr. McVey could be more specific as to the location of these cakes, this would help.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Aug 2002 13:01

Dan wrote:Still, we need to determine whether or not any example anywhere in the world exist. This will help with assessing the credibility of the USSR exibit mentioned in the list of evidence. If Mr. McVey could be more specific as to the location of these cakes, this would help.
If this is so important to you, how about asking Mr. McVay himself?

The e-mail address indicated on the Nizkor main page is:

[email protected]

Dan
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Re: proof

Post by Dan » 22 Aug 2002 14:42

Smert-Fashistam wrote:I had been in russian museum of war in Brest Castle in what was formerly western USSR and now I believe is Latvia when I was young, and dispays there shown actual soap made of humans as well as handbags for women made out of human skin and that was not counterfiet
Smert, it would seem your visit was to the Brest Hero Fortress Museum in Belarus. They do not seem to have an email address, but their phone number is

227-30-06, 227-43-22, 227-06-33.

For anyone in that area who can speak Russian.

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 22 Aug 2002 15:14

This is a pretty good article, related to WWI Greuelpropaganda.
:)

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stu ... f//soap.03

Dan
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Post by Dan » 22 Aug 2002 15:41

Scott Smith wrote:This is a pretty good article, related to WWI Greuelpropaganda.
:)

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stu ... f//soap.03
Yes, an insightfull article. This attitude of believing ridiculous stories until they are proven wrong will end up painting them into corner.

Interesting how history is repeating itself, it took Germany until 7 years after the war to dispell the glyserin myth, and it took 15 years until after WW2 to dismiss Soap Libel.

These paragraphs I found interesting:
McVay and Keren seem to hold that everything that is not proved
false, necessarily must be considered as true. I object strongly
against that attitude, because good propaganda is issued in
such a way as to convince people of the reality of what in truth
is a lie.

Adhering to e.g. the soap story because there exist photographs
of soap bars, in my view is a travesty of the science of history.
You don't have to discount the possibility that such things, indeed
happened, but any honest researcher should point out the high
probability that in fact plain propaganda stories crept in here.

Now what is so horrible in thinking like I do? I really am appalled
by the idea that therefore I belong to the IHS-crowd or whatever.
Or is it that many readers of my postings try to shout down
the creeping realization in themselves that some things they
have learned may well be false?


--------------------- cut here --------------------

Even the most popular atrocity story of all-the German
corpse factory-turned out to be another war correspondents'
invention. This particular story had a long and highly
successful run. It had several variations, but basically it was
that close behind their front line the Germans had established
factories for boiling down the corpses of their soldiers, from
which to distill glycerine for munitions. The Times initiated
the story, on April i6, 19I7, with a suspiciously vague
paragraph that said baldly: "One of the United States consuls,
on leaving Germany in February, stated in Switzerland that the
Germans were distilling glycerine from the bodies of their
dead." The account quickly blossomed. The Times expanded the
original report by reproducing a dispatch by a German
correspondent, Karl Rosner, in which he referred to the German
army's Kadaververwertungsanstalt, which The Times translated as
"Corpse Exploitation Establishment." Foreign newspapers picked
up the story. It appeared in LInde'pendance and La Belge, two
Belgian newspapers published in France and Holland. French
correspondents were instructed by their army authorities to send
dispatches to their newspapers over their own signatures
detailing what was known about the corpse factories. The matter
came up in the House of Commons on April 30, when the Prime
Minister was asked if he would make the story known as widely as
possible in Egypt, India, and the East generally. A
corpse-factory cartoon appeared iii Punch, and in general the
affair had world-wide circulation and considerable propaganda
value.

The Germans protested in vain that the report was
"loathsome and ridiculous" and that The Times had mistranslated
Rosner's report, the word Kadaver not being used for a human
body. In vain a British MP tried to get the government to
clarify the matter. He said it was perfectly clear, from
accounts published in the Frankfurter Zeitung and other leading
German papers, that the factories were for boiling down the
corpses of horses and other animals from the battlefield. Would
the government therefore try to find out whether the story
published in Britain was true or absolutely false? The
government, of course, had no such intention. Lord Robert
Cecil, Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, replied that the
government knew no more than had been published, but "in view of
other actions by German military authorities there is nothing
incredible in the present charge against them"-a typical case of
appearing to lend substance to the report without the
responsibility of actually doing so.

Germany had to live with the accusation untill 1925.....

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Aug 2002 16:18

Dan wrote:These paragraphs I found interesting:
McVay and Keren seem to hold that everything that is not proved
false, necessarily must be considered as true. I object strongly
against that attitude, because good propaganda is issued in
such a way as to convince people of the reality of what in truth
is a lie.

Adhering to e.g. the soap story because there exist photographs
of soap bars, in my view is a travesty of the science of history.
You don't have to discount the possibility that such things, indeed
happened, but any honest researcher should point out the high
probability that in fact plain propaganda stories crept in here.

Now what is so horrible in thinking like I do? I really am appalled
by the idea that therefore I belong to the IHS-crowd or whatever.
Or is it that many readers of my postings try to shout down
the creeping realization in themselves that some things they
have learned may well be false?
Whoever wrote these lines was not only shooting the bull (no historian is obliged to consider the possibility of mere propaganda in the absence of evidence thereto and in the face of an existing criminal investigation of evidence), he also grossly misrepresented at least Mr. McVay’s position on the issue:
I have always had an open mind about this issue, as the opening
paragraphs indicate (the original article goes back over two years),
and have still not seen either Mazur's testimony, or that of the two
POW's, refuted. I am, however, well aware of the controversy
surrounding this issue, and the comments made by Lipstadt and Bauer.
Alas, neither has provided any research material to examine, so the
question remains open.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... of/soap.01

Charles Bunch
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Post by Charles Bunch » 22 Aug 2002 16:33

Roberto wrote:
Dan wrote:These paragraphs I found interesting:
McVay and Keren seem to hold that everything that is not proved
false, necessarily must be considered as true. I object strongly
against that attitude, because good propaganda is issued in
such a way as to convince people of the reality of what in truth
is a lie.

Adhering to e.g. the soap story because there exist photographs
of soap bars, in my view is a travesty of the science of history.
You don't have to discount the possibility that such things, indeed
happened, but any honest researcher should point out the high
probability that in fact plain propaganda stories crept in here.

Now what is so horrible in thinking like I do? I really am appalled
by the idea that therefore I belong to the IHS-crowd or whatever.
Or is it that many readers of my postings try to shout down
the creeping realization in themselves that some things they
have learned may well be false?
Whoever wrote these lines was not only shooting the bull (no historian is obliged to consider the possibility of mere propaganda in the absence of evidence thereto and in the face of an existing criminal investigation of evidence), he also grossly misrepresented at least Mr. McVay’s position on the issue:
I have always had an open mind about this issue, as the opening
paragraphs indicate (the original article goes back over two years),
and have still not seen either Mazur's testimony, or that of the two
POW's, refuted. I am, however, well aware of the controversy
surrounding this issue, and the comments made by Lipstadt and Bauer.
Alas, neither has provided any research material to examine, so the
question remains open.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... of/soap.01
Yes, this is but another example of deniers making false claims about the evidence, and the positions of those who follow the evidence. Why Dan would find interesting such an obvious distortion of not only what Ken McVay believes about the Danzig soap experiments, but about the charge that he holds this supposed belief based exclusively on photos, is probably explained by his desire to disbelieve the evidence. Alternative explanations would be equally insulting.

Smert-Fashistam
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Post by Smert-Fashistam » 22 Aug 2002 16:58

Smert, it would seem your visit was to the Brest Hero Fortress Museum in Belarus. They do not seem to have an email address, but their phone number is

227-30-06, 227-43-22, 227-06-33.

For anyone in that area who can speak Russian.
yes, that's the location, and now that I think about it, those exibits might have been fake, however I will try to find out if they are still there and if they were in fact made up - perhaps, because I was younger when I saw them I might have taken propaganda to seriously

Dan
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Post by Dan » 22 Aug 2002 19:25

Thanks

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Scott Smith
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The Dope on Soap...

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Aug 2002 20:06

Charles Bunch wrote:Yes, this is but another example of deniers making false claims about the evidence, and the positions of those who follow the evidence. Why Dan would find interesting such an obvious distortion of not only what Ken McVay believes about the Danzig soap experiments, but about the charge that he holds this supposed belief based exclusively on photos, is probably explained by his desire to disbelieve the evidence. Alternative explanations would be equally insulting.
Well, McVay has an open mind but also says this in his own words:
Ken McVay wrote:"It seems that Stutthof manufactured soap. Some historians claim that the Nazi manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor. However, cakes are on display; and witnesses have testified that soap was made at Stutthof from the fat of dead Jews." [Emphasis mine.]

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... of/soap.01
Where's the distortion? McVay claims that cakes ARE on display and that the soap was made from JEWS.
:)

Charles Bunch
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Re: The Dope on Soap...

Post by Charles Bunch » 22 Aug 2002 20:33

Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:Yes, this is but another example of deniers making false claims about the evidence, and the positions of those who follow the evidence. Why Dan would find interesting such an obvious distortion of not only what Ken McVay believes about the Danzig soap experiments, but about the charge that he holds this supposed belief based exclusively on photos, is probably explained by his desire to disbelieve the evidence. Alternative explanations would be equally insulting.
Well, McVay has an open mind but also says this in his own words:
Ken McVay wrote:"It seems that Stutthof manufactured soap. Some historians claim that the Nazi manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor. However, cakes are on display; and witnesses have testified that soap was made at Stutthof from the fat of dead Jews." [Emphasis mine.]

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... of/soap.01
Where's the distortion? McVay claims that cakes ARE on display and that the soap was made from JEWS.
:)
As Ken notes he's reposting an old article, one that is close to 10 years old now. Additional information has come to light in that time. Testimony that soap was made from cadavers does exist, but there is no indication the cadavers were Jewish. Whether cakes of such soap were ever on display I don't know. That Ken McVay may have believed that to be the case ten years ago has no bearing on the evidence which does exist.

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Scott Smith
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Re: The Dope on Soap...

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Aug 2002 20:44

Charles Bunch wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote:Yes, this is but another example of deniers making false claims about the evidence, and the positions of those who follow the evidence. Why Dan would find interesting such an obvious distortion of not only what Ken McVay believes about the Danzig soap experiments, but about the charge that he holds this supposed belief based exclusively on photos, is probably explained by his desire to disbelieve the evidence. Alternative explanations would be equally insulting.
Well, McVay has an open mind but also says this in his own words:
Ken McVay wrote:"It seems that Stutthof manufactured soap. Some historians claim that the Nazi manufacture of soap from human fat is just a grim rumor. However, cakes are on display; and witnesses have testified that soap was made at Stutthof from the fat of dead Jews." [Emphasis mine.]

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... of/soap.01
Where's the distortion? McVay claims that cakes ARE on display and that the soap was made from JEWS.
:)
As Ken notes he's reposting an old article, one that is close to 10 years old now. Additional information has come to light in that time. Testimony that soap was made from cadavers does exist, but there is no indication the cadavers were Jewish. Whether cakes of such soap were ever on display I don't know. That Ken McVay may have believed that to be the case ten years ago has no bearing on the evidence which does exist.
Okay, I find that answer reasonable.
:)

Dan
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Post by Dan » 22 Aug 2002 21:45

It is as we predicted earlier on this very thread.

.
The Nizkor site claims that there is soap on display, but I think that is old information that hasn't been corrected yet. At least the Nizkor site doesn't tell where the soap is.
We do try to put the best possible contruction on a statement 8)

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