(18): Are you familiar with what is known as the Brand Operation, under which, subject to certain conditions, one million Jews were to leave the country?
Answer: I am familiar with the Brand Operation of trucks in return for the release of people. I do not know whether the Accused suggested this "Brand Operation" and submitted it to his superior. I also do not know whether the Accused travelled several times to Berlin in this connection.
(19): How and when did you become involved in this operation, and at whose initiative?
Answer: Not very long after I received Himmler's basic agreement to conclude the trust agreement on the Weiss_Manfred Works, Dr. Billitz approached me and asked me to intervene with Himmler, in order to save Jewish people. As far as I remember, that was at the beginning of May 1944.
(20): When and under what circumstances did you meet Mr. Joel Brand? When did you first talk to him?
Answer: I have already referred to this question in my reply to the eighth question of this record.
(21): Were the Accused's proposals for implementing the operation more favourable than those of Reichsfuhrer-SS Himmler with whom you talked?
Answer: I was not familiar with all of the Accused's proposals in detail. When under urging from Dr. Billitz I applied for an appointment to see Himmler, which I managed to obtain through the good offices of Winkelmann, I knew from Dr. Billitz that a proposal was being discussed about trucks in return for releasing Jewish people. Himmler did not say whether he was aware of this proposal and who had made it. However, as far as I remember, Himmler's words were: "Get out of the Jews everything that can be got out of them. Promise them what they are asking for. As to what we will keep, we'll just have to see!" I objected and made a point of saying that the arrangements made with the Jews must be observed, come what may. I remember that, as far as the unit of account was concerned, Himmler finally laid down an amount of one thousand dollars per person. I remember various sums being discussed at the time, and I should imagine that Dr. Kasztner may well have known more about the details than I did.
(22): After the War, did you act as interpreter during the interrogation of fellow detainees in internment or prison camps or prisons?
Answer: No.
(23): During the time you were imprisoned, did you speak about persecution of the Jews and the responsibility for such persecution with your fellow detainees, Veesenmayer, Winkelmann, Geschke, Juettner and others?
Answer: As far as I remember, during the years in which I was interned I spoke with many people also about this problem, including General Winkelmann when we were both imprisoned in Budapest (1945-1946), and later General Juettner in the witnesses' wing of the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg. I do not remember any conversations with Veesenmayer, with whom I was also imprisoned in Budapest, and later in Nuremberg. As far as I remember I did not come across Geschke in prison.
(24): Did you also meet the above-mentioned persons after the end of your imprisonment, or did you make any other contact with them, and did you talk to them about the subject of the Jews? When did this occur last?
Answer: As far as I remember, after I was released from internment in Nuremberg, in December 1947, I did not have any conversations with any of the gentlemen referred to - Winkelmann, Juettner, Veesenmayer, or Geschke. I corresponded with Winkelmann and Juettner with regard to matters other than the Jewish problems. My correspondence with Winkelmann ceased in 1948, and that with Juettner in 1952.
(25): During your imprisonment, did you talk to Dr. Kasztner about Jewish matters? If so, when was this and who initiated such discussions? Did Dr. Kasztner exert himself towards this end?
Answer: Dr. Kasztner told me that he was in Nuremberg in order to give evidence as a witness in the Wilhelmstrasse trial, and on this occasion I had a meeting with him - as far as I remember this was in August 1947. If I am not mistaken, I had another talk with Dr. Kasztner around April 1948, when I was still in what was known as the open witnesses' wing in Nuremberg. During this meeting we naturally talked about our joint rescue efforts. I was taken from the prison for an interrogation and met Dr. Kasztner at that time. Of course, I endeavoured to get in touch with Dr. Kasztner again.
(26): After you were released from prison, did Dr. Kasztner come to see you? If so, how often did you meet and for how long?
Answer: I neither saw nor spoke to Dr. Kasztner again afterwards. As to whether I corresponded later by letter with Dr. Kasztner, as far as I remember I did exchange a few letters sporadically with Dr. Kasztner.
(27): After you were released from prison, did Mr. Joel Brand come to see you, and did he talk with you about Jewish matters?
Answer: Mr. Joel Brand wrote to me on 16 May 1955 and asked to come and see me. As far as I remember, he came to Bremen in June 1955, together with the writer Weissberg_Cybulski. These two gentlemen explained that he wanted to write a book about the rescue work of the Vaada [Jewish Rescue Committee] and the close co-operation with me. They said that this book would become a best-seller and was to appear in all the languages of the world. However, it would only be possible to write this book if I would be prepared to take part in the book, in the interest of historical truth. After all, Mr. Brand could not say anything of his own knowledge about what had happened in Hungary after he left for Constantinople in the middle of May 1944. That meant that in that regard he would have to rely on the stories of others. It was true that he had the Vaada's report by Dr. Rudolf Kasztner. However, it was vital that I present the co-operation of the Jewish Rescue Committee with the German side.
He was particularly interested in the historical truth being described about the success I had had as a result of my negotiations with Himmler. I did talk to the two of them about some of the events of that period, but I indicated that I was not inclined to co-operate with them on this book. During the conversation, Mr. Brand asked me to give him an affidavit in which I would confirm that wooden barracks which were acquired with means provided by him would be made available to the German authorities. He needed such a statement in order to submit claims for reparations. I did not know anything about the matter. I therefore refused to give the affidavit he asked for. My impression was that Mr. Brand was very disappointed at this. At that time Mr. Brand spent several days in Bremen. He kept trying to convince me to take part in his book. In a joint letter, dated 22 July 1955, Messrs. Brand and Weissberg-Cybulski once again asked me to work on the book with them. I did not reply to this letter, and since then I have had no contacts with Mr. Brand.
(28): After the War were you in touch with Mr. Andreas Biss?
Answer: Yes. I do not remember when Mr. Biss first wrote to me. I did speak to Mr. Biss - he was Dr. Kasztner's representative on the Budapest Rescue Committee - about our joint work. I think that my last personal meeting with Mr. Biss was at the end of 1960, or the beginning of 1961.
(29): Did you have general conversations with the Accused about the Solution of the Jewish Question in Hungary, and what was the Accused's attitude?
Answer: I was careful not to have general discussions with Eichmann about the Jewish Question. From many things he said and the measures he applied, I knew what the Accused's attitude was. Eichmann was an ardent Nazi and a fanatical anti-Semite.
The representative of the Attorney General in Jerusalem has read out to me the Accused's allegations as contained in Prosecution documents Nos. 3290 to 3305, tape 69, volume VI of the Accused's statement to the police. Insofar as I am cited in these statements and my activities are described, I wish to state that they in no way correspond to the truth. I did not have any influence on the carrying out of deportations; it has been proved that I brought my influence to bear against deportations in many instances, and in some cases I was also successful in doing so. My assignment from the SS Leadership Head Office and the Manfred Weiss- Manfred operation I carried out were totally unconnected with Eichmann. As I have already stated, it was around the first half of May that, on the urging of the Jewish leadership, I tried to acquire influence with Himmler in favour of the Jews. My above statements are supported inter alia by the declaration made by Dr. Rudolf Kasztner.
I have been shown Dr. Kasztner's sworn evidence of 13 September 1945 before the International Military Tribunal (IMG Volume XXXI, No. 47, in the Israel Prosecution documents), insofar as the evidence refers to me. If differences as to motives are seen in Dr. Kasztner's testimony, I am unable to provide any explanation of that.
(30): Do the statements and evidence which you gave in 1944,* {* Should probably be 1946} 1947 and 1948 in the witnesses' prison in Nuremberg, on oath and not on oath, conform to the truth?
Answer: I no longer remember in detail the statements and evidence which I gave in the witnesses' prison in Nuremberg. However, in accordance with my inner attitude, all the statements and evidence I gave, whether on oath or not, were made to the best of my knowledge and belief. If I am today to swear that all such statements and evidence conform to the truth, I would have to be shown the documents, so that I can check them all in detail.
(31): When did you learn what happened to the deportees?
Answer: Jewish sources, particularly Dr. Kasztner, first hinted, and from the end of August 1944, I think, told me that of the Jews deported from Hungary only some were being used for labour, while the others were annihilated. At that, as far as I remember, I turned to Eichmann, too, and he insisted that these were lies. All the Jews, he said, were being used for labour. It was only when I read the content of the order which I managed to get Himmler to issue in the autumn of 1944 - today I am not entirely sure whether it was October or November - "With immediate effect, I prohibit any annihilation of Jews, and on the contrary, I order that weak and sick persons be looked after" - that I received for the first time confirmation from the German side that Dr. Kasztner's information was correct.
(32): What information did you provide to General Juettner about the "foot march," and how did he react to it?
Answer: General Juettner was furious about the foot march. Before he left Vienna for Budapest - this was the middle of November - I was able to draw his attention to the details of this catastrophic measure, and I had also informed him that, together with General Winkelmann, I had already protested to Himmler. General Juettner, under the impression of what he had seen himself, had had talks in Budapest with General Winkelmann, and also with a subordinate of Eichmann's in the presence of Winkelmann and myself, and expressed his indignation. As far as I remember, Eichmann's subordinate put forward the excuse that he was only carrying out orders.
(33): What do you know of the "foot march" of the Jews of Budapest to the Austrian border?
Answer: As far as I remember, the foot march began at the end of October 1944, i.e., under the Szalasi Government. The reason given for the foot march was that these people had to build a defensive rampart on the Austrian border. That is why there was mention of age limits for men suitable for this purpose. When I had discussions in Switzerland with President Roosevelt's emissary on war refugee matters, Mr. McClelland, and with Mr. Saly Mayer, I promised these gentlemen that I would without delay make representations to Himmler, in order to put an end to this foot march, but in any case, if that could not be arranged, at least to ensure that those taking part in the march should, in terms of age and physical capacity, be suitable for constructing fieldworks.
When I returned from Switzerland at the beginning of November, I saw, on the road from Vienna to Budapest, dreadful sights of misery of people marching. I immediately informed General Winkelmann, and together with General Winkelmann submitted a detailed report - I believe by teletype - to Himmler, with the request that he give orders for this foot march to be stopped.
I do not know whether this order for which we asked was issued immediately. In fact, the foot march continued, because a few days later I again saw these marches on the road from Budapest to Vienna.
I then went to Himmler and endeavoured to have the foot march stopped. Himmler then prohibited the foot march. I remember the people on the foot march being in an extremely bad state. As far as I remember, those in the march included ten-year-old children, as well as old people of 65 years of both sexes. I also remember that at least in part - I drove along the road three times - the weather was bad. As to whether in talking to General Juettner I called this foot march Eichmann's regiment (Standarte), I cannot remember any more today.
(34): Where did Eichmann live in Budapest?
Answer: I do not know where his dwelling was. I do not remember ever visiting him there. His office was on the Schwabenberg.
(35): Did you know Slawik, Eichmann's caretaker?
Answer: No.
(36): Did you know the name of Eichmann's driver in Budapest?
Answer: No.
(37): Did you know SS Obersturmbannführer Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl?
Answer: I knew him fleetingly in Budapest. I met him again later in the witnesses' wing of the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg.
(38): Did you know of any relations between the Accused and Dr. Hoettl?
Answer: Not at all.
(39): What German personnel were available to you for carrying out your special assignment for the SS Leadership Head Office?
Answer: The people I worked with were detached from units of the Waffen-SS and assigned to my staff. They were officers for requisitioning horses, veterinary officers, paymasters, non-commissioned officers and private soldiers. The horse- requisitioning commissions consisted of Hungarian officers from the Honved Ministry, German army officers and members of my staff.
The hearing was adjourned at 17.30.
Bremen, 21 June 1961
The hearing was continued on 21 June 1961.
Present: The same persons.
(40): Do you identify as authentic the teletypes of 25 and 26 August 1944, of which a photocopy has been submitted (Document Nos. 1421 and 1422 of the Israeli Prosecution)?
Answer: Although I do not remember the exact wording, I acknowledge that these documents are photocopies of teletypes which might have been exchanged between myself and Himmler.
(41): Do you still maintain as accurate your statements made in 1947 and 1948 as they have been joined together in Prosecution document No. 774?
Answer: No. 929 of 7 July 1947 and 929 B of 10 July 1947 (though only slightly, because of the short time available to me), I can declare that the statements made in them correspond to the truth. Having looked at these records, I remember especially that my description of the conversation with Eichmann before Himmler is accurate.
Due to lack of time, I only glanced also at the other records submitted to me yesterday: one without a number, dated 28 July 1947, No. 1858 of 29 August 1947, No. 2294 of 1 November 1947, No. 2710a of 2 March 1948, and No. 2710c of 22 June 1948. I have only a vague recollection of these interrogations. As can be seen in these records, in part I expressed myself on matters which I knew by hearsay only, and about which I heard only during my internment. Today I am no longer able to remember many of the events about which I testified in these interrogations.
(42): What led up to the conversation in December 1944 in Triberg between Himmler and Eichmann at which you were present?
Answer: I gave expression to my complaints and my uneasiness that it seemed to me that, time and again, Eichmann tried to circumvent the instructions issued by Himmler. I requested Himmler to send for Eichmann, in order to inform him in person of his intentions. I had told Himmler that Eichmann simply did not take his orders seriously, and would only carry them out if they were expressly confirmed by Gruppenführer Müller. Eichmann had told me this much himself. Himmler then sent for Eichmann, together with myself.
In personal conversations with Himmler, I told him of my impression that Eichmann had his support in Müller and Kaltenbrunner, and that I was not sure whether in the long run Eichmann would follow Himmler's orders and instructions. I remember that I recommended to Himmler that he himself try to convince Eichmann of his current thinking. As far as I remember, I recommended to Himmler to award Eichmann a decoration, as I had the impression that Eichmann would be amenable to such a welcome from Himmler.
As far as I remember, the conversation between Himmler, Eichmann and myself took place in Himmler's command carriage in the Black Forest, near Triberg. Himmler talked to Eichmann [in a manner] I would call both kindly and angrily. I remember one thing that Himmler said to Eichmann in this connection: He shouted at him something like "If until now you have exterminated Jews, from now on, if I order you, as I do now, you must be a fosterer of Jews. I would remind you that in 1933 [1939] it was I who set up the Head Office for Reich Security, and not Gruppenführer Müller or yourself, and that I am in command. If you are not able to do that, you must tell me so!"
(43): Why did you complain to Himmler about Eichmann, and how did Eichmann sabotage your activities?
Answer: It was not always clearly evident how Eichmann counteracted my measures. Dr. Kasztner and Mr. Biss constantly called my attention to any arrangements made by Eichmann which did not fit in with the negotiations between the Rescue Committee and myself, or with my agreements with Himmler. I am, however, unable to remember details any longer. What I still know is that Eichmann always strove to play down these matters as against me. When Himmler had authorized the departure of some seventeen hundred people - I think it was in June or July 1944 - and the persons selected by the Jewish Committee were to be sent in the direction of Vienna, I heard from Dr. Kasztner that Eichmann had given instructions for the transport to head for Bergen- Belsen. At Dr. Kasztner's request, I immediately went to see Eichmann, and according to my recollection, he said something like: "That is true; for technical reasons the transport is going to Bergen-Belsen!" When I asked why it was going to Bergen-Belsen and not proceeding immediately to Switzerland, he said to me: "These people have to go first to Bergen-Belsen!" When I asked when the transport would continue, Eichmann said: "As soon as the order is given!" He added that in the end it was up to him to determine when the transport would get under way, since there were sufficient arguments as against Himmler as well for the transport not to leave. For example, spotted typhus might have broken out. The transport could also have been wiped out on the way by enemy bombing.
I contacted Himmler once again about this transport and finally managed to arrange that the transport really went to Switzerland.
Several times Eichmann said to me that even orders from Himmler would be carried out by him only if his chief, Gruppenführer Müller, confirmed these orders.
In April 1945 I tried to ensure that the inmates of concentration camps should not be exterminated through the fighting. Himmler gave me full powers in this respect for the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. For tactical reasons it seemed expedient to me to let Eichmann know that I had received such powers from Himmler, in order to deter him from possibly doing something. So, before I left for Bergen- Belsen with Dr. Kasztner, I went to Eichmann's office here in Berlin. I told Eichmann that I was going to Bergen- Belsen with Dr. Kasztner, and then on to Neuengamme. At this point Eichmann exploded in a fit of rage at my intention of taking "this scoundrel Kasztner" to a concentration camp, quite apart from the fact that he did not agree to my having access to a concentration camp. Eichmann stated flatly that he and Gruppenführer Müller would not allow it, and that, furthermore, it was undesirable for Kasztner to go with me. I nevertheless left for Bergen-Belsen with Kasztner. As far as co-operation in practice between Kaltenbrunner and Eichmann, and Gruppenführer Müller and Eichmann, is concerned, as I remember things today, my impression is that in many instances Eichmann worked directly with Kaltenbrunner, but that in the main the co-operation was between Eichmann and Müller. I am not able to give any examples of Eichmann and Kaltenbrunner working together directly in some cases.
(44): Did you inform Eichmann of Himmler's orders, and what was his reaction? By what means did Eichmann normally receive Himmler's orders?
Answer: Himmler issued his orders through official channels. I only showed Eichmann the copy of the order I had managed to obtain, addressed to Kaltenbrunner and Pohl, for stopping the extermination of the Jews. I believe that this was in Budapest. I remember Eichmann being utterly dismayed at this order. However, I am unable today to say exactly what he said. As far as I remember today, I did sometimes inform Eichmann orally of Himmler's decisions, i.e., in cases where it seemed to me to be suitable to give Eichmann advance notification.
(45): Do you believe that the transport of 1,700 persons would not have been allowed to go had you not made efforts for the departure of these people?
Answer: Once the number of this transport through departure from Hungary had been set, I received a promise from Himmler, in reply to a direct question, that these people would be allowed to leave for Switzerland. The transport went to Bergen-Belsen instead of Switzerland. I personally had made a commitment to the Jewish Committee, on the basis of Himmler's promise to me, that I would ensure that these people would reach Switzerland. I insisted time and again to Himmler that this transport must continue. Nevertheless, at first Himmler only promised me that five hundred people could emigrate in August. I know that Himmler gave this order. However, in August a transport of only 318 persons crossed the Swiss border. At the end of October, Himmler finally promised me that the remaining persons could now leave. I passed on this statement in binding form to President [of the Joint] Mayer and Mr. McClelland. In December, this transport did actually arrive in Switzerland. In my view, this transport definitely only reached Switzerland because of my continued efforts.
(46): You have said that Eichmann sabotaged your activities. Who supported Eichmann's efforts in this respect?
Answer: I assumed that Eichmann basically relied on Müller, but that he also considered Kaltenbrunner to be a major source of support.
(47): When you made your statements of 27 and 28 March 1946, as contained in Israeli Prosecution Document No. 827,* {* Exhibit T/690} did they correspond to the truth, and do you maintain your testimony today?
Answer: I have glanced at these records. The testimony I gave then is correct. I have nothing further to add in that respect. I remember meeting Eichmann in the middle of April in Himmler's quarters in Wustrau. However, today I no longer remember the details of what we talked about.
(48): How did you make the acquaintance of Dr. Rudolf Kasztner?
Answer: As far as I remember, I met Dr. Kasztner at the beginning or in the middle of June 1944. We were introduced by Dr. Billitz; I no longer remember whether I first saw Dr. Kasztner with Dr. Billitz or Eichmann, or with the two of them.
(49): When did you suggest to Himmler that a stop be put to deporting Jews?
Answer: I am no longer able to say when I first suggested to Himmler to put a stop to deporting Jews. I should imagine that I put this proposal insistently around June 1944.
(50): What was the result of your efforts with Himmler?
Answer: I remember that, after my first talks with President Saly Mayer on the Swiss border on 21 August 1944, I approached Himmler again, in order to get him to stop the deportations. I also know that, immediately after I made my report, Himmler ordered that deportations of Jews from Hungary be halted. The order, which I later managed to obtain from Himmler to Kaltenbrunner and Pohl - "With immediate effect, I prohibit any destruction of Jews and, on the contrary, I order that weak and sick persons be looked after. I will consider you to be personally responsible if this order is not followed strictly also by your subordinate departments," meant that Himmler not only prohibited the deportation and destruction of Jews, but, on the contrary, gave orders for sick and weak Jews to be looked after.
Another result of my efforts with Himmler is the stoppage of transporting Jews to Austria by foot marches, which I obtained with the assistance of General Winkelmann and General Juettner.
The measures I carried out in the last weeks of the War to protect the lives of the inmates of concentration camps are also to be considered as a result of this attitude on the part of Himmler which I managed to bring about.
(51): How did Eichmann react to your intervention to put an end to the foot march?
Answer: I cannot say anything about this on the basis of my own observations. In any case, I no longer remember any details today.
(52): What was the relationship between Himmler and Kaltenbrunner?
Answer: I cannot say anything about this from my own knowledge. However, my impression at the time was that the relationship between Himmler and Kaltenbrunner was constantly worsening. Himmler tended increasingly to accept my proposals. In contrast, Kaltenbrunner followed Hitler's hard-line approach. In this connection, I know that Himmler remarked to me that he was concerned that Kaltenbrunner would denounce my efforts to Hitler.
(53): How would you explain Himmler's trying to mollify Eichmann by awarding him a decoration, when Eichmann had not followed his orders?
Answer: I already replied to this question in my interrogation on 10 July 1947 (Interrogation No. 929 B, contained in document No. 774 of the Israeli Prosecution), on page ten, in reply to the 37th question. What I have stated there is true to the facts, and I maintain this in my interrogation today.
(54): How were Jewish assets in Hungary seized for the SS and transferred to Germany?
Answer: As far as I remember, I and my staff did not carry out any confiscations. However, I do know that assets were handed over to my staff; they were meant to enable me to reason with Himmler on the basis of contributions by the Jews. This is something which was agreed to with the Jews, particularly with Dr. Kasztner and Engineer Biss. I am unable to state how Jewish assets in Hungary were seized by other branches of the SS and transferred to Germany. I know nothing as to Jewish goods and assets that were transferred to other German services, apart from the SS. I know that the assets handed over to my department were on my orders handed over by my paymaster, Hauptsturmführer Grabau, to Dr. Schwaiger, on his release from Mauthausen.
As far as I remember, these assets - that is to say, the assets handed in to my staff - were in part handed over by SS offices, and in part by other offices, probably at the instance of the Jewish Committee. I did not deal with these matters in person, so that I cannot say anything about the details. In reply to the question as to whether I remember that equipment for horses was bought for a sum of six million Pengoe, I no longer remember that today. I do remember that a large amount of coffee was handed over to my staff. As far as I remember, the assets returned to Dr. Schwaiger included also the valuables which were handed over to my staff either by Klages' office or by Eichmann's office.
(55): Did your office issue protective passes?
Answer: Protective passes were issued directly by my office, and also, on my recommendation and with my assistance, by various other offices and organizations. I remember my assistance in obtaining Swedish and Swiss protective passes, and also that still under the Szalasi Government, one hundred passes signed by the Minister for the Party were obtained. In general, I would say that these protective passes were issued in order to protect Jewish people against various anti-Jewish measures. As to whether I tried to keep the issue of protective passes as secret as possible, I can reply in the affirmative.
(56): Did you give Jewish persons the possibility of being included in the special transport of 1,700 Jews?
Answer: As far as I remember, in co-ordination with the Jewish Committee, persons were proposed for this transport by my staff. I no longer remember the figure. As to whether the committee refused to include a particular person, my reply is that I cannot remember that.
(57): Did those who received protective passes or those included in the special transport provide anything in return?
Answer: As far as I remember, these were in the main persons who somehow worked with my equipment staff or for the equipment staff. I think it possible that, when these people left the country, they handed over some goods or monetary valuables. Since I did not deal with these matters in person, I am unable to say anything about them.
When it came to issuing protective passes and including part of these persons in the transport of those who were to travel to Switzerland, I do not know of any form of "team work." In any case, I do not remember anything of this nature. With reference to the comment which Dr. Kasztner made in his report (Israeli Prosecution document No. 900, page 62), I can but state that I do not know of this and have no recollection of it.
(58): It has been suggested to you that, according to Dr. Kasztner's report (Document No. 900 of the Israeli Prosecution, pages 132-133), a telegram arrived from Ketlitz on 27 November. How did Eichmann react when he heard what the telegram said?
Answer: I do not remember details of this discussion. However, I have no doubt that the situation might well have been as described by Dr. Kasztner. At this time, the atmosphere between the Rescue Committee and myself on the one hand, and Eichmann on the other hand, was extremely tense.
(59): Why did you recommend that Jews be allowed to emigrate if they provided something in return?
Answer: When I was asked by the Jews to intervene on their behalf, in talking to Himmler, I used the proposals already under discussion, of trucks in return for letting people go. Dr. Billitz reported to me that this proposal was under negotiation by Eichmann and the Jewish Rescue Committee. It was on this basis that I started my efforts with Himmler, and I continued with them even when I saw quite clearly that this was not meant as a serious proposal. I used all kinds of considerations concerning valuables, and negotiations about considerations to be provided in return, in order to prove to Himmler how the Jews were keeping their promises, even though these return services were actually put into effect only to a very small extent.
(60): Did the Accused do anything to thwart implementation of the exchange deal?
Answer: I would refer to the whole of my examination. I am not able to state anything further at the moment.
61st question: Do you know whether the Accused contravened Himmler's order to cease deportations?
Answer: Today I do not remember whether I knew then of such instances. To supplement my answer to the 59th question, I should like to add that my efforts to protect Jewish and politically persecuted persons were the reason why I pretended that I wished to carry out these business deals, because I considered them to be the only chance of obtaining concessions for these people from Himmler. I made my statement yesterday and today to the best of my knowledge and belief, according to what I remember today. It must, however, be borne in mind that these events took place some seventeen years ago, and also that during the three years of my internment, as well as later, I had to go through many interrogations, in which numerous statements by others were put to me. Consequently, it is not impossible that my power of recollection may mislead me on some point or other.
Read out, approved, and signed
(-) Kurt A. Becher
hi david are the minutes of hitlers meeting available,and also the for-mentioned high command files would be interesting to try to maybe establish bormans influence on the last year of the war. german naval documents would be a good read for the submarines still in action and what naval vessels were never commisioned or completed for service. also how long have these been available to the public? also what do you know of is still classified and in what relation to german war efforts. your posts deserve more members attention im sure. 8) thankyou . "waffen".