Generalities

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Poxsellis
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Generalities

#1

Post by Poxsellis » 20 Aug 2002, 20:08

Under normal circumstances, solving a crime involves criminological investigations in order to obtain irrefutable evidence with which to convict the criminal. Since eyewitness statements are frequently very imprecise, it is the task of the courts to establish the true state of the matter on the basis of incontrovertible facts and evidence. Murder ranks among the most heinous of crimes, which is why it is particularly necessary in such cases to precisely establish the relevant facts. In such a crime, the scene of the crime, the murder weapon, the course of events, the cause of death, and the motive are generally investigated in order to ascertain the identity of the murderer/s. The whereabouts of the victims is also of central importance.

If the victim of an alleged crime cannot be located, it is difficult if not downright impossible to prove that the crime took place. In murders with only one or at most a very few victims, the elimination of evidence may be possible, provided that the site of the crime and the method of eliminating the victims remain unknown. If, however, the number of victims is great, and if the site of their elimination is precisely documented cartographically and even recorded on aerial photographs, then given the standards of modern technology the crime can be established with absolute certainty. One need only recall, for example, that in the course of archaeological digs the discovery of ashes suffices to establish the presence of human settlements beyond any doubt even hundreds of thousands of years after the fact.
What do you think about this statement in relationship to the Holocaust? Is it necessary to make a scientific investigation, or not? Looking forward to your thoughts.

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Roberto
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Re: Generalities

#2

Post by Roberto » 20 Aug 2002, 20:35

Poxsellis wrote:
Under normal circumstances, solving a crime involves criminological investigations in order to obtain irrefutable evidence with which to convict the criminal. Since eyewitness statements are frequently very imprecise, it is the task of the courts to establish the true state of the matter on the basis of incontrovertible facts and evidence. Murder ranks among the most heinous of crimes, which is why it is particularly necessary in such cases to precisely establish the relevant facts. In such a crime, the scene of the crime, the murder weapon, the course of events, the cause of death, and the motive are generally investigated in order to ascertain the identity of the murderer/s. The whereabouts of the victims is also of central importance.

If the victim of an alleged crime cannot be located, it is difficult if not downright impossible to prove that the crime took place. In murders with only one or at most a very few victims, the elimination of evidence may be possible, provided that the site of the crime and the method of eliminating the victims remain unknown. If, however, the number of victims is great, and if the site of their elimination is precisely documented cartographically and even recorded on aerial photographs, then given the standards of modern technology the crime can be established with absolute certainty. One need only recall, for example, that in the course of archaeological digs the discovery of ashes suffices to establish the presence of human settlements beyond any doubt even hundreds of thousands of years after the fact.
What do you think about this statement in relationship to the Holocaust? Is it necessary to make a scientific investigation, or not? Looking forward to your thoughts.
"Scientific investigations" are as necessary (or unnecessary) in regard to Nazi crimes as in regard to any other crimes or historical events.

It is simply wrong to state that investigating the scene of the crime and the murder weapon is a must in criminal justice to establish the relevant facts.

These facts can be - and often are - established on the basis of the defendants' depositions and eyewitness testimonies alone.

The murder weapon, especially, is only of interest to criminal justice to the extent that it provides hints about the identity of the murderer.

Where that identity can be established beyond a reasonable doubt on the basis of other evidence, it is of only marginal interest.

In the case of Holocaust crimes, eyewitness testimonies, corroborated by defendants' depositions, documentary evidence and the few physical traces that survived the killers' efforts to erase them, have been sufficient to prove these events to the satisfaction of criminal justice and historiography - if not to the satisfaction of ideologically motivated whiners for whom no evidence can conceivably be sufficient when it comes to the crimes they deny because the occurrence thereof challenges their articles of faith.

It is usually such people who, completely disregarding the standards of evidence applied by criminal justice and historiography, call for "scientific investigations".

I wouldn't be surprised it the passage quoted by the poster without a source reference was authored by such freaks.

Where archaeological assessments of the killing sites have been made, these have corroborated, not contradicted the conclusions validly drawn on the basis of documentary and eyewitness evidence.

Examples:

1. Treblinka
There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches.
From the report by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Warsaw, 1946

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm
In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some large bones. (note 63)

Poland's Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes
reported that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues, were found in the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site shortly after the end of the war. (note 64)
The investigations by the Central Commission as referred to in an article by "Revionists" Mark Weber and Andrew Allen.

Source:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... linka.9605

The site contains interesting refutals of "Revisionist" nonsense.

2. Auschwitz-Birkenau
In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum
--(Franciszek Piper, _Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death
Camp_, p. 179n).
Source:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/ausc ... rning-pits

3. Belzec

Archaeological investigations were conducted on the site of this former extermination camp in 1997/98. 33 huge mass graves containing ashes, bone fragments, burnt human fat and huge numbers of whole decomposed corpses were found.

Excerpts from the archaeological report can be read under the following links:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/akti ... enza_II.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/akti ... enza_VI.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/akti ... lusions.98


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#3

Post by Poxsellis » 20 Aug 2002, 21:55

Interesting thoughts, Roberto. I conclude from your words, that a further detailed scientific investigation is not necessary?

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#4

Post by Roberto » 21 Aug 2002, 10:49

Poxsellis wrote:Interesting thoughts, Roberto. I conclude from your words, that a further detailed scientific investigation is not necessary?
Exactly. I don't mind it, however. The more we know, the better.

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Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#5

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Aug 2002, 11:55

Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:Interesting thoughts, Roberto. I conclude from your words, that a further detailed scientific investigation is not necessary?
Exactly. I don't mind it, however. The more we know, the better.
As long as nothing new (and illegal) is learned, right?
:roll:

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#6

Post by Roberto » 21 Aug 2002, 12:57

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:Interesting thoughts, Roberto. I conclude from your words, that a further detailed scientific investigation is not necessary?
Exactly. I don't mind it, however. The more we know, the better.
As long as nothing new (and illegal) is learned, right?
:roll:
Facts are never illegal, even in those horrible countries that applies laws against hate speech.

And as long as the True Believers cannot answer any of the questions below, it is extremely unlikely that the results of "scientific investigation" will in any way help their articles of faith.

1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were “transit camps” en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?

2. The rail line leading to Treblinka was a sidetrack of the line going from Warsaw to Bialystok in Northeast Poland. Bialystok was the closest point to the Soviet Union, anyone from Treblinka being resettled in the Soviet occupied territory had to pass through there. Yet a German railroad table for Bialystok shows Jews being taken from there to Treblinka, with the empty cars returning to Bialystok. In other words, they were being moved away from the Soviet territories by being sent to Treblinka. Why was this so?

3. The resettlement of ca. 1.5 million people in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union would have been a complex operation, requiring hundreds if not thousands of German officials to carry it out and at least as many people involved in building projects. Yet no one has ever come forward to testify about such a resettlement, even though this would have made an ideal defense at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial and subsequent trials. Former high-ranking transportation specialists in Germany during the war did not offer Soviet resettlement as a defense in post-war trials, even though they denied having known the real purpose of the train transport. No war crimes defendant actually offered resettlement as a defense, even those who denied knowledge of the genocide. Why was this so?

4. As becomes apparent from a number of documents regarding the “economic aspects” of “Operation Reinhard” (alternatively spelled “Reinhardt” or “Reinhart”, I’ll use the “Reinhard” spelling for convenience in the following), the Jews taken to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka were stripped of all their belongings there, including their clothing. Why would that have been done if they were going to be resettled – unless “resettlement” was to be to a place where they would need no clothing anymore?

5. Why would the Nazis, concerned as they were about preserving their own resources and robbing the Jews of everything they had, have invested large sums of money – far more than the costs of the killing operation, which are exactly known from Globocnik’s correspondence with Himmler – into a resettlement project? Or are the Jews supposed to have been simply shoved across the border and left there to die of starvation, exposure and disease? If so, wouldn’t that be similar to the way Stalin got rid of the “kulaks” and no less a crime than the mass killing at the extermination camps?

6. Why were there so many dead bodies at Treblinka in October of 1942 that they could not be sufficiently buried, thus creating a stench that befouled the air as far as Ostrow, 20 kilometers away, which led the local Wehrmacht commander to raise an official complaint about that stench?

7. How many whole bodies, and how many bodies reduced to ashes and other partial remains, fit into pits 7.5 meters deep in the burial area more than 20,000 square meters long and wide that was found after the war by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland? Was there room enough for, say, the 713,555 Jews from the General Government taken to Treblinka until 31.12.1942, according to the Höfle memorandum, or was there not?

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#7

Post by Poxsellis » 21 Aug 2002, 14:20

1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were “transit camps” en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?



Interesting and valid arguments, Roberto. Let's discuss the first one i've quoted above. Scott, what's your opinion about it?

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#8

Post by Roberto » 21 Aug 2002, 14:24

Poxsellis wrote:Interesting and valid arguments, Roberto.

Thanks.

Your writing style looks familiar.

Haven't we met before?

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#9

Post by Poxsellis » 21 Aug 2002, 15:29

Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:Interesting and valid arguments, Roberto.

Thanks.

Your writing style looks familiar.

Haven't we met before?

Possible, but what's so familiar about my writing style, Roberto?

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#10

Post by Roberto » 21 Aug 2002, 15:54

Poxsellis wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:Interesting and valid arguments, Roberto.

Thanks.

Your writing style looks familiar.

Haven't we met before?

Possible, but what's so familiar about my writing style, Roberto?
The highlighting.

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#11

Post by Hans » 21 Aug 2002, 16:32

Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:Interesting and valid arguments, Roberto.

Thanks.

Your writing style looks familiar.

Haven't we met before?

Possible, but what's so familiar about my writing style, Roberto?
The highlighting.


And you have the same occupation and interests as Thorwald and Wiking! :D

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#12

Post by Poxsellis » 21 Aug 2002, 17:11

Hehe, so you consider it could be possible, that i'm one of these guys? Highlighting makes a text better readable, but thats a common student technique :)

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#13

Post by Hans » 21 Aug 2002, 17:28

I confess, I have no physical proof for my thesis. There is, however, an evident convergence of evidence! :)

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#14

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Aug 2002, 17:36

Poxsellis wrote:
1. Court experts and historians who have assessed the documentary evidence concluded that all pertinent documents – correspondence among officials as well as train schedules, timetables and other transportation documents – clearly point to Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka as the final destinations. There is not a single document, however detailed, that even hints at the Jews taken to these camps going any further. Why would this be so if the camps were “transit camps” en route to the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?
Interesting and valid arguments, Roberto. Let's discuss the first one i've quoted above. Scott, what's your opinion about it?
There is no evidence that they arrived there at all and never left. The camp could have been a Durchgangslager or transit-camp for collecting valuables and delousing. There was, however, a quarry at nearby Treblinka I. Probably many prisoners were used for road construction all over or sent to other camps or ghettos. I have no opinion on how many were killed, but missing does not mean murdered by poison gas. A serious archeological study of TII would tell us more.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 21 Aug 2002, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't Look Through the Telescope!

#15

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Aug 2002, 17:46

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Poxsellis wrote:Interesting thoughts, Roberto. I conclude from your words, that a further detailed scientific investigation is not necessary?
Exactly. I don't mind it, however. The more we know, the better.
As long as nothing new (and illegal) is learned, right?
:roll:
Facts are never illegal, even in those horrible countries that applies laws against hate speech.
Sorry but with Thoughtcrime the facts don't matter. One is either a heretic or one is not.
And as long as the True Believers cannot answer any of the questions below, it is extremely unlikely that the results of "scientific investigation" will in any way help their articles of faith.
Nonsense, unless it can be shown that there is human remains consistent with the gassing and cremation of 700 thousand to a million persons at TII. There should be ample forensic evidence available, including millions of teeth. Furthermore, I never said that anybody had to have been "resettled" anywhere. I merely said that nobody was gassed with diesel exhaust! And to believe that engine exhaust or gassing of any kind was used I'm going to have to see serious forensic archaeology of the mass-grave at TII, assuming that it can be located at all, as per the orthodox story. I assume that there was some body-disposal going on there, and indeed, some witnesses describe half the transports being full of corpses on arrival. That would be consistent with work projects from various places and centralized body-disposal.
:)

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