Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 14 May 2019 21:50

Thanks !
This is because Allen Dulles, Head of US intelligence in Berne, was responsible for realizing the legally incriminating implications of these diaries and, having obtained this evidence by covert means, personally placed a translation into the hands of the US chief prosecutor, Justice Robert Jackson.
So, concerning the alleged sentence "we want war", Ribbentrop was right, Allen Dulles was the forger and Jackson the dupe !

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 08:14

Nobody was a forger as no forgery is involved in the first place. Ciano Diaries are fully authentic as shown by the sources I cited.

That someone misquoted something is another issue altogether.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 08:21

Note that the Nuremberg judgment correctly placed the fully authentic "we want war" Ciano quote:

"The extent to which Ribbentrop had adopted this attitude of mind of Hitler at this time is shown in the introduction to Count Ciano's diary"
Last edited by Sergey Romanov on 15 May 2019 08:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 08:23

So did Maxwell-Fyfe:

"It is important to have in mind, if I may respectfully suggest it, that that meeting was on the 23rd of May 1939, because there is an interesting corroboration of the attitude of mind-in showing how clearly this Defendant Ribbentrop had adopted the attitude of mind of Hitler-in the introduction to Count Ciano's diary, which was put in as Exhibit Number USA-166, Document 2987-PS; but I do not think this part of the diary, the introduction, has been read before to the Court. It is Document 2897-PS, and it comes two after L-79, which is the "Little Schmundt" file, just after the Obersalzberg document. It is set out in the trial brief, if the Tribunal will care to follow it there. Count Ciano says:"

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 08:27

And this might be the place Hof means, where MF doesn't differentiate between the diary entries and the intro:

"SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I want you to have in mind what Count Ciano says that you said to him on, I think the 11th or 12th of August, just before your meeting at, I think it was at Salzburg, with you and Hitler. You remember that according to Count Ciano's diary he said that he asked you, "What do you want, the Corridor or Danzig?" and that you looked at him and said, "Not any more; we want war." Do you remember that?"

So it is not even a misquote, just a lack of precision.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 May 2019 11:01

Sergey Romanov wrote:
15 May 2019 08:27
And this might be the place Hof means, where MF doesn't differentiate between the diary entries and the intro:

"SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I want you to have in mind what Count Ciano says that you said to him on, I think the 11th or 12th of August, just before your meeting at, I think it was at Salzburg, with you and Hitler. You remember that according to Count Ciano's diary he said that he asked you, "What do you want, the Corridor or Danzig?" and that you looked at him and said, "Not any more; we want war." Do you remember that?"

So it is not even a misquote, just a lack of precision.
So, the liar was the birtish prosecutor (or misquoter if you prefer), not the american one (Jackson).

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 15:09

You behave like some kind of a Holocaust denier, one of those who accuse everyone of being liars or forgers (almost always projecting of course).

You accused Dulles of being a "forger" without any evidence, now you bring up Jackson (?) and MF whom you accuse of lying without any evidence (intro to the diary is, after all, a part of the diary and it contains the exact words cited by MF).

Hmmm...

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 May 2019 15:29

Sergey Romanov wrote:
15 May 2019 15:09
You behave like some kind of a Holocaust denier, one of those who accuse everyone of being liars or forgers (almost always projecting of course).

You accused Dulles of being a "forger" without any evidence, now you bring up Jackson (?)
I have quoted your link.
We dont need to distort words or things in order to conclude that the Holocaust and the WWII was Hitler's will.
and MF whom you accuse of lying without any evidence (intro to the diary is, after all, a part of the diary and it contains the exact words cited by MF).

Hmmm...
I just read your quote :
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, I want you to have in mind what Count Ciano says that you said to him on, I think the 11th or 12th of August, just before your meeting at, I think it was at Salzburg, with you and Hitler. You remember that according to Count Ciano's diary he said that he asked you, "What do you want, the Corridor or Danzig?" and that you looked at him and said, "Not any more; we want war."
MF was wrong by saying this, since Ciano did not report these words indeed.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 17:55

> I have quoted your link.

Nothing in the link even approaches a suggestion of any forgery on Dulles' part.

You made this up.

> MF was wrong by saying this, since Ciano did not report these words indeed.

Since Ciano did, in the introduction section, as is plainly stated in numerous quotes, incl. by MF himself, it is your assertion (that Ciano did not) that is apparently not being honest.

One time out of two MF wasn't precise enough (since the distinction between the intro part of the diary and the contemporary entries is meaningful). This couldn't have played any significant role during the trial though, since the document PS-2987 was of course available to Ribbentrop and his defense, so it's not like anyone would have been able to pull a fast one on this point.

So lying doesn't follow from this in any way.

Moreover, "wrong" doesn't equal "liar" either.

So your narrative began with "forgery", proceeded through "liar" and was reduced to merely "wrong".

TL;DR: diary is authentic; Ribbentrop was full of it.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 15 May 2019 18:49

Sergey Romanov wrote:
15 May 2019 17:55
> I have quoted your link.

Nothing in the link even approaches a suggestion of any forgery on Dulles' part.

You made this up.
The link your provided said Dulles made the translation and gave it to Jackson. I could assume that Dulles' translation was not right or honest enough.
> MF was wrong by saying this, since Ciano did not report these words indeed.

Since Ciano did, in the introduction section, as is plainly stated in numerous quotes, incl. by MF himself, it is your assertion (that Ciano did not) that is apparently not being honest.

One time out of two MF wasn't precise enough (since the distinction between the intro part of the diary and the contemporary entries is meaningful). This couldn't have played any significant role during the trial though, since the document PS-2987 was of course available to Ribbentrop and his defense, so it's not like anyone would have been able to pull a fast one on this point.

So lying doesn't follow from this in any way.

Moreover, "wrong" doesn't equal "liar" either.

So your narrative began with "forgery", proceeded through "liar" and was reduced to merely "wrong".
That you think it is as simple mistake, or that i think it is a conscious lie is not very important. Tthe fact is that MF was wrong and that Ribbentrop could protest against this misquotation.

And there is no need to call anyone negationnist or holocaust denier...

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 15 May 2019 19:17

> The link your provided said Dulles made the translation and gave it to Jackson. I could assume that Dulles' translation was not right or honest enough.

The assumption is both false and is unlikely to be made in good faith. There's nothing (in and outside of the quote) indicating that the translation "was not right or honest enough".

> That you think it is as simple mistake, or that i think it is a conscious lie is not very important.

It is of course important for evaluating your claims that you've made in this thread.

> Tthe fact is that MF was wrong and that Ribbentrop could protest against this misquotation.

MF wasn't wrong, there was no misquote, and even on the assumption of MF's alleged wrongness at most a conclusion of him having made a mistake could be made.

Not however a conclusion of "forgery" or "lying".

Hence both your and Ribbentrop's claims are plainly wrong. Ribbentrop's also because he had the document before his eyes, and the document explicitly states the quote was excerpted from the intro. It is not represented as a contemporary diary entry.

> And there is no need to call anyone negationnist or holocaust denier...

I haven't yet, you on the other hand have called people forgers and liars on no evidence whatsoever.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by michael mills » 16 May 2019 03:58

The article by Hof quoted by Sergei Romanov contains this line:
Zumindest ist Ribbentrop insoweit zuzustimmen, als Ciano die Worte „Wir wollen Krieg“ tatsächlich nicht am 12. August 1939 notierte, wie dies die Ankläger im Nürnberger Prozess implizierten. Ciano schrieb sie erst rückblickend am 23. Dezember 1943 nieder, als er in Verona in Gefangenschaft war17.
Translation:
At least we have to agree with Ribbentrop to the extent that Ciano did not note the words "We want war" on 12 August 1939, as the prosecutors in the Nuremberg trial implied. Ciano wrote them only in retrospect, on 23 December 1943, when he was imprisoned in Verona.
In other words, the words allegedly spoken by Ribbentrop, indicating an intention to unleash a European war, do not appear in his diary entry for 12 December 1939, but only in the preface he wrote while in prison, as part of the package of papers he wanted his wife Edda to give to Himmler's representative, Harster, in exchange for his freedom.

The CIA article linked by Sergei states that the purpose of that preface was to exonerate Ciano from all blame for the outbreak of war in 1939, and to blame others, in particular Germany but also Mussolini. Since the words attributed to Ribbentrop by Ciano appear only in that preface, they obviously are part of his attempt to exonerate himself.

Given the exculpatory purpose of the preface (and indeed of the entire diary, according to the CIA article), Ciano's claim that Ribbentrop said "We want war" on 12 August 1939, in the lead-up to the attack on Poland, cannot be accepted at face value, unless there is corroborating evidence. Ribbentrop may have said those words, or he may have said something less dramatic that Ciano misrepresented in retrospect.

Thus, if anybody falsified material contained in Ciano's diary and the accompanying documents, it can only have been Ciano himself.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by Sergey Romanov » 16 May 2019 07:50

Correct, the reliability of Ciano's claim can be questionable, but not the fact that he made the claim. It wasn't a "forgery".

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 16 May 2019 09:35

If Ribbentrop really said this that day, there is no reason that Ciano didnt write it in his diary... He has written it only in the preface, knowing he was going to be murdered.
I think Ciano wrote it as a revenge against Ribbentrop and in order to make sure that after the war Ribbentrop would be judged and recognized guilty of crime against peace.

Is it such a bad lie ? Even if Ribbentrop has not said it, we all know that Hitler wanted the war.

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Re: Hitler's intent to wage aggressive war

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 19 Jul 2019 13:11

Ciano in his diary reported the 11th august 1939 about Ribbentrop 's " implacable will to trigger the war". It is in accordance with what Ciano added in his preface, that is also repeated in Edda's book.

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