Holocaust saviour dies.

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Wolf
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Holocaust saviour dies.

Post by Wolf » 27 Aug 2002 01:27

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Per Anger 1913-2002.

Secretary at the Swedish legation in Budapest, 1942-44 and a co-worker of the more famous Rauol Wallenberg during the tumultuous days of German ocupation 1944.

Anger chose to bend the rules when the Germans came to destroy the last siezble Jewish comunity in Europe and began issuing provisional passports, phony documents which helped save some 700 Jews from the grasp of the Nazis.

Later, with the arrival of Raoul Wallenberg, this practice lead to the use of the Swedish schutzpasse, another basically phony document that capitalised on the GREAT German respect for documents with a lot of fancy stambs and symbols. Several thousand Jews were saved, maybe as many as 100 000 people, a figure unmatched.
In your face Adolf Eichmann.

Anger continued to serve as a diplomat after the war and dedicated himself to the question of what had happened to Raoul Wallenberg.

Image

Hounored as a "Righteous Among the Nations" by the State of Israel and Yad Vashem in 1982 along with a number of other awards, Per Anger died Sunday night, August 25th 2002.

I figured he deserved mention. A hero in a time of darkness. Vila i frid.

Dan
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Post by Dan » 27 Aug 2002 01:32

Just about anyone who sticks his finger in the eye of a totalitarian government is OK by me.

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 27 Aug 2002 14:23

Later, with the arrival of Raoul Wallenberg, this practice lead to the use of the Swedish schutzpasse, another basically phony document that capitalised on the GREAT German respect for documents with a lot of fancy stambs and symbols. Several thousand Jews were saved, maybe as many as 100 000 people, a figure unmatched.
In your face Adolf Eichmann.

Anger continued to serve as a diplomat after the war and dedicated himself to the question of what had happened to Raoul Wallenberg.
Himmler had already offered to let one million Jews go, in return for trucks that would be used only on the Russian Front. This was the well-known deal offered by Eichmann to Joel Brand. That offer needs to be seen against the background of Himmler's secret negotiations with the US intelligence services (eg Allen Dulles in Switzerland) which had been going on since 1943; by offering to let Jews go, Himmler was hoping to establish his bona fides with the Allies, with a view to negotiating a compromise peace, leaving Germany to continue fighting the Soviet Union.

Accordingly, it is hardly surprising that Himmler's men in Budapest allowed Wallenberg to take a considerable number of Jews into sanctuary. It was probably part of Himmler's grand scheme for a negotiated peace, with the remaining Jews being used as bargaining chips. What is known for certain is that Wallenberg was not a regular Swedish diplomat, but was sent to Budapest at the express request of the United States Government.

If Wallenberg was playing a role in secret contacts between Himmler and the United States with a view to making a deal leaving Germany free to concentrate all its forces against the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Government found out about it, that would explain why Wallenberg mysteriously disappeared after going off to meet the newly arrived Soviet commanders early in 1945.

In any case, it was hardly an instance of "in your eye, Eichmann". Eichmann was simply Himmler's man in Budapest, and was carrying out instructions from Himmler in his dealings with the Hungarian Zionist leaders. In fact, he made a deal with Rezsoe Kasztner, the head of the Zionist organisation in Hungary, to let the organisation smuggle some thousands of members of its youth groups out of Hungary and into Romania, in return for which the Zionist leaders did not oppose the mass deportation.

Wolf
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Post by Wolf » 27 Aug 2002 18:00

michael mills wrote:What is known for certain is that Wallenberg was not a regular Swedish diplomat, but was sent to Budapest at the express request of the United States Government.
The Swedish staff in Budapest requested additional personel. And Wallenberg seems to have been a true winner.

michael mills wrote:If Wallenberg was playing a role in secret contacts between Himmler and the United States with a view to making a deal leaving Germany free to concentrate all its forces against the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Government found out about it, that would explain why Wallenberg mysteriously disappeared after going off to meet the newly arrived Soviet commanders early in 1945.
Pure speculation.

It is just as likely the Soviets tried to recruit Wallenberg but failed and killed him, thinking the Swedish government had no interest in getting him back. There was one Swedish diplomat in Moscow who gave his personal view that Wallenberg was of no importance to the Soviets, who are likely to have interpreted it as the official Swedish line. In the Soviet Union there could be no such thing as a personal view.

michael mills wrote:In any case, it was hardly an instance of "in your eye, Eichmann".
They made several 'raids' to collect Jews awaiting transport. It was very much a case of 'in your face, Adolf Eichmann'.

Charles Bunch
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Post by Charles Bunch » 28 Aug 2002 05:31

Marcus Wendel wrote:
michael mills wrote:All the huffing and puffing about saving Jews
It is nice to see how you regard the work of a man who saved a great many lives, but prehaps it is of no importance to you as it was "only" Jews?
I'm greatly disgusted and disappointed by your post. I will not tolerate that kind of crap here and any futher posts by you that I (or any of the other moderators) find even even remotely in violation of the guidelines will get you banned from my forum (and no, I could not care less if anyone disagrees with this decision).

/Marcus
Although I can understand why Mr. Mills' post was removed, it is too bad that we don't have his views for posterity.

There are certain verities that apply to those who minimize as well as those who deny the Holocaust.

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Poxsellis
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Post by Poxsellis » 28 Aug 2002 10:07

Marcus Wendel wrote:
michael mills wrote:All the huffing and puffing about saving Jews
It is nice to see how you regard the work of a man who saved a great many lives, but prehaps it is of no importance to you as it was "only" Jews?
I'm greatly disgusted and disappointed by your post. I will not tolerate that kind of crap here and any futher posts by you that I (or any of the other moderators) find even even remotely in violation of the guidelines will get you banned from my forum (and no, I could not care less if anyone disagrees with this decision).

/Marcus

Didn't find the mentioned posting. Did you delete it, Marcus?

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 28 Aug 2002 12:12

Poxsellis wrote:Didn't find the mentioned posting. Did you delete it, Marcus?
Yes, of course.

/Marcus

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 28 Aug 2002 14:59

Pure speculation.

It is just as likely the Soviets tried to recruit Wallenberg but failed and killed him, thinking the Swedish government had no interest in getting him back. There was one Swedish diplomat in Moscow who gave his personal view that Wallenberg was of no importance to the Soviets, who are likely to have interpreted it as the official Swedish line. In the Soviet Union there could be no such thing as a personal view.
Your view seems to be more speculative. Recruit him for what? Do you know of any other neutral diplomats killed for frivolous reasons?

The fact is that the Soviet Government was well aware of the attempts by Himmler to negotiate a separate peace with the Western Allies, and kept a close look out for any sign that the Western Allies might accept. If the NKVD officers accompanying the Red Army into Budapest had any suspicion that Wallenberg had been an agent in the secret dealings between Himmler and the Allies (remember that the "trucks for Jews" deal had been revealed by the British very early in the peace, and the Soviets knew all about it), that would have given them a motive to arrest him and perhaps kill him.
They made several 'raids' to collect Jews awaiting transport. It was very much a case of 'in your face, Adolf Eichmann'.
This is historically incorrect, and an example of "Boys' Own Annual" wishful thinking. When Wallenberg was active in Budapest selecting Jews, giving them Swedish papers and putting them into special protected houses, the deportations from Hungary had ceased. Furthermore, Himmler had already issued his order that the remaining Jews in the concentration camps were to be kept alive, and there were to be no further selections for killing. The most likely reason for that order was that he wanted to keep Jews alive to use as bargaining chips in his negotiations.

Besides negotiating with Allen Dulles and Jewish representatives in Switzerland, Himmler was also negotiating with Swedish officials, including Count Bernadotte. As part of the negotiations, Himmler offered to let Swedish officials take out a number of Jews, hoping to gain some leverage that way. When all his attempts at negotiation with the Allies failed, and the end of the war approached, it was Himmler's plan to seek refuge in Sweden, and it appears that he was on his way there in disguise when he was caught by the British.

It is entirely possible that Wallenberg's activities were related in some way to the negotiations that Himmler entered into with Sweden. He may well have authorised Swedish officials to select and take out Jews from Budapest, and that was what Wallenberg was sent there to do; to select Jews for exchange, give them protective documents, and house them in special areas.

At the time when Wallenberg was carrying out his activities, the main danger to the Jews of Budapest came from the gangs of Nyilas, the Hungarian fascists who ruled the country after October 1944. Many scores of thousands of Jews in Budapest were killed by them. It can be said that Wallenberg's activities in putting Jews in safe houses may have saved many from being killed by the Nyilas, who of course were acting on their own initiative, not carrying orders from Eichmann. But to say that Wallenberg frustrated Eichmann ib some way is simply nonsense.

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 28 Aug 2002 15:07

Charles Bunch wrote:
Although I can understand why Mr. Mills' post was removed, it is too bad that we don't have his views for posterity.
You DO have them, Mr Bunch. After my original post was deleted, I rewrote it and reposted it in a form that was obviously more acceptable to the forum moderators, as it is still there. Read the post and you will know what my views are; it contains all the essential points I made in my original post.

By the way, I made no value-judgement about "saving" Jews, nor any implication that Jews did not deserve to be saved. I was putting the activities of Anger and Wallenberg into what I believe to be the actual historical context.

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Roberto
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Re: Off-Topic

Post by Roberto » 29 Aug 2002 11:10

Scott Smith wrote: I know that Roberto copies everything that I say onto his harddrive and hyperlinks to the source,
Not everything, Mr. Smith.

Only statements I consider particularly illustrative of Smith's frame of mind, such as
Scott Smith wrote:Here we have a monumental accusation made against Gentiles in general and Germany in particular, that harms the German people--except of course their leaders, and perhaps also the plastic-spoon generation of neo-Germans--and it harms all of the Palestinian people.
Thu May 09, 2002 6:58 am Post subject: POINTLESS.
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 338adb8cad

or
Smith wrote:Maybe Roberto has forgotten that Jews were the driving force behind the atomic bomb development and intended it for use against Germany... :wink:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/p ... 1405dcd1b6

And, as Smith was realistic enough to point out, only for use on this very forum.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Off-Topic

Post by Scott Smith » 29 Aug 2002 14:17

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: I know that Roberto copies everything that I say onto his harddrive and hyperlinks to the source,
Not everything, Mr. Smith.

Only statements I consider particularly illustrative of Smith's frame of mind, such as
Scott Smith wrote:Here we have a monumental accusation made against Gentiles in general and Germany in particular, that harms the German people--except of course their leaders, and perhaps also the plastic-spoon generation of neo-Germans--and it harms all of the Palestinian people.
Thu May 09, 2002 6:58 am Post subject: POINTLESS.
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 338adb8cad

or
Smith wrote:Maybe Roberto has forgotten that Jews were the driving force behind the atomic bomb development and intended it for use against Germany... :wink:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/p ... 1405dcd1b6

And, as Smith was realistic enough to point out, only for use on this very forum.
So Roberto, what is the point with your post? Just in the mood to generate some Spam today?
:roll:

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Post by Wolf » 29 Aug 2002 15:28

michael mills wrote:Your view seems to be more speculative. Recruit him for what? Do you know of any other neutral diplomats killed for frivolous reasons?
Well, I can't take credit for it. One of the possible motives for Wallenbergs capture put forward by Swedish foreign department (2000) was that the Soviet intention to use him as a spy. Sinitsyn, heading the Scandinavian section of the Soviet foreign intelligence service (PGU) 1946-47 claims in his memoirs to unsuccessfully have tried to get Wallenberg transferred from the counter intelligence. It is a popular explanation among Russians with some kind of attachment to the Soviet security organs but otherwise not considered to be strongly founded.
michael mills wrote:The fact is that the Soviet Government was well aware of the attempts by Himmler to negotiate a separate peace with the Western Allies, and kept a close look out for any sign that the Western Allies might accept. If the NKVD officers accompanying the Red Army into Budapest had any suspicion that Wallenberg had been an agent in the secret dealings between Himmler and the Allies (remember that the "trucks for Jews" deal had been revealed by the British very early in the peace, and the Soviets knew all about it), that would have given them a motive to arrest him and perhaps kill him.
The theory of Wallenberg being suspected by the Russians for negotiating a separate peace because of his dealings with men like Eichmann and Becher are considered baseless. The Allies supplied the Soviets with detailed information on any such negotiations while the Soviets in addition got good intelligence from their own agents, particularly in the British intelligence service. There is no evidence that the Soviet prime concern for capturing Wallenberg was suspicion of him being some kind of key figure in separate peace negotiations with the west. Especially since Wallenberg did no such thing. Sorry.
michael mills wrote:This is historically incorrect, and an example of "Boys' Own Annual" wishful thinking.


Wrong.
Wallenberg and Anger saved many Jews from the "clutches of the Holocaust" using some rather unconventional methods, for a diplomat at least. It angered Eichmann plenty, who actually threatened Wallenberg.
michael mills wrote:When Wallenberg was active in Budapest selecting Jews, giving them Swedish papers and putting them into special protected houses, the deportations from Hungary had ceased.
Wrong.
Wallenberg arrived to Budapest on July 9th, 1944. The majority of the Jews in Budapest had not yet been touched.
michael mills wrote:Furthermore, Himmler had already issued his order that the remaining Jews in the concentration camps were to be kept alive, and there were to be no further selections for killing. The most likely reason for that order was that he wanted to keep Jews alive to use as bargaining chips in his negotiations.
Fantasy. Eichmann sent people on death marches when he had no trains. Also, I seriously question your source, whatever it could possibly be, that state: "Himmler had already issued his order that the remaining Jews in the concentration camps were to be kept alive."
michael mills wrote:Besides negotiating with Allen Dulles and Jewish representatives in Switzerland, Himmler was also negotiating with Swedish officials, including Count Bernadotte. As part of the negotiations, Himmler offered to let Swedish officials take out a number of Jews, hoping to gain some leverage that way.


That was at the very end of the war. Himmler tried to save his own neck.
michael mills wrote:When all his attempts at negotiation with the Allies failed, and the end of the war approached, it was Himmler's plan to seek refuge in Sweden, and it appears that he was on his way there in disguise when he was caught by the British.
If that is true, boy Himmler had no clue at all.
michael mills wrote:It is entirely possible that Wallenberg's activities were related in some way to the negotiations that Himmler entered into with Sweden.


lol! It is about as likely as Hitler being serviced by Gypsis in the Führer bunker.
michael mills wrote:He may well have authorised Swedish officials to select and take out Jews from Budapest, and that was what Wallenberg was sent there to do; to select Jews for exchange, give them protective documents, and house them in special areas.
More speculation or wishful thinking.
Neither the chicken farmer Himmler or the ultra coward Eichmann had any reason to approve Wallenberg's activities. He did the exact opposite of either Himmler of Eichmann.
michael mills wrote:At the time when Wallenberg was carrying out his activities, the main danger to the Jews of Budapest came from the gangs of Nyilas, the Hungarian fascists who ruled the country after October 1944. Many scores of thousands of Jews in Budapest were killed by them. It can be said that Wallenberg's activities in putting Jews in safe houses may have saved many from being killed by the Nyilas, who of course were acting on their own initiative, not carrying orders from Eichmann. But to say that Wallenberg frustrated Eichmann ib some way is simply nonsense.
Wrong.
With the seizure of power by the Hungarian fascists Eichmann returned and Adolf Eichann was in Hungary to make it Judenrein. He had promised it. It was his mission. In fact everything Wallenberg did was to upset Eichmann's goal.

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Roberto
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Re: Off-Topic

Post by Roberto » 29 Aug 2002 17:29

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: I know that Roberto copies everything that I say onto his harddrive and hyperlinks to the source,
Not everything, Mr. Smith.

Only statements I consider particularly illustrative of Smith's frame of mind, such as
Scott Smith wrote:Here we have a monumental accusation made against Gentiles in general and Germany in particular, that harms the German people--except of course their leaders, and perhaps also the plastic-spoon generation of neo-Germans--and it harms all of the Palestinian people.
Thu May 09, 2002 6:58 am Post subject: POINTLESS.
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 338adb8cad

or
Smith wrote:Maybe Roberto has forgotten that Jews were the driving force behind the atomic bomb development and intended it for use against Germany... :wink:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/p ... 1405dcd1b6

And, as Smith was realistic enough to point out, only for use on this very forum.
So Roberto, what is the point with your post? Just in the mood to generate some Spam today?
:roll:
No “spam”, whatever that is.

Just some illustrative quotes from the treasure chest of "Revisionist" wisdom.

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Post by michael mills » 30 Aug 2002 02:55

Wolf wrote:
That was at the very end of the war. Himmler tried to save his own neck.
Incorrect. Himmler had been trying to initiate secret negotiations with agents of the Western Allies ever since 1943 (secret = behind Hitler's back). Himmler had realised by then that the war could not be won by Germany, and that the only way out was a negotiated peace with the Western Allies, leaving Germany free to fight the Soviet Union to a standstill.

Himmler's clandestine action in letting the Jews of Denmark flee to Sweden was a sign to the Allies that he was prepared to trade Jews in return for negotiations. (The action was clandestine in the sense that it was not carried out openly. A warning was given to the Jews by German officials that an action against them was imminent; then the normal German naval patrols were temproarily withdrawn, enabling the Jews to flee by sea. Only Himmler was in a position to organise all of that, although his role remains clouded in secrecy).

The "Jews for trucks" deal, proposed in May when the deportations from Hungary were only just starting, was also a signal from Himmler to the Western Allies of his readiness to negotiate. Another element was the fact that Himmler allowed the Wehrmacht plot against Hitler to proceed, even the Gestapo knew all about it. Himmler took no action against the plotters for a whole day, waiting to see what the outcome was, and only moved when it became clear that the assassination attempt had failed.

For details on Himmler's attempts to initiate negotiations, using the Jews as bargaining chips, I suggest you read the book "Jews For Sale" by the Jewish historian Yehuda Bauer.

By the time Wallenberg arrived in Budapest in July, the main deportation to Auschwitz was ending. There subsequent smaller deportations to Austria, but these were for the purpose of providing a slave-labour force to build fortifications on the border.

In October, Eichmann obtained approval from the Hungarian authorities to send 50,000 Jews to Austria to work on fortifications. They were despatched by foot as the railway lines had been cut. Very few of the Jews sent actually reached the worksites in Austria; due to the harsh weather conditions, and the fact that the Jews were in poor condition to start with, many collapsed on the way, and many died. For that reason the attempt to send Jews to Austria by foot was called off, and those who had not reached the border or had not died on the way were returned to Budapest.

It is clear that in organising that particular deportation, Eichmann was implementing orders to provide a labour force for the fortification work in Austria. The attempt to send them by foot failed because it was not practicable, not due to humanitarian efforts by Becher or others.

Other small groups of Jews were sent from other localities in Hungary to various worksites in Austria. In these cases, the transportation succeeded because it was carried out by rail.

There is no evidence that Wallenberg had any influence whatever on the trnasportation of Jews to Austria that occurred from October onward. At most, he played a role in protecting Jews in Budapest from the depredations of the Nyilas gangs.

However, the survival of the large Jewish community in Budapest cannot be attributed to the activities of Anger or Wallenberg. In the first place, the Germans had already extracted as many Jews from Hungary as they needed for slave-labour in Germany and Austria. In the second place, Himmler was concerned to preserve a large number of Jews to use as bargaining chips in his negotiations with the Allies.

The exact date of Himmler's order to cease the selections for killing in the concentration camps is not known, but according to testimony it was toward the end of October 1944. Himmler's motive was to keep Jews alive for use in his attempts at negotiation. In any case, the Jews deported from Hungary subsequent to the German reoccupation in October were sent for slave-labour.

Any statement that the activities of Anger and Wallenberg somehow "frustrated the Holocaust" is simply nonsense. At best their activities were marginal. They had no real influence on the outcome.

The reasons for Wallenberg's arrest by the Soviets remain shrouded in mystery, until such time as former Soviet archives are completely opened. In my opinion, the most likely explanation is that the SOviets suspected that he was somehow involved in Himmler's negotiations with the Western Allies, particularly as he was trying to use Sweden as a conduit.

Whether Wallenberg was knowingly involved in such negotiations cannot be known. But I think that his activity in issuing protective documents to Jews in Budapest, and his procurement of safe houses where they could be kept, was something that was surreptitiously allowed by Himmler in order to keep a substantial number of Jews "on ice" for the purpose of trading them. Whatever Wallenberg's real role was, he was surely a very minor player in the convoluted series of events in Hungary between the German occupation in March 1944 and the Soviet conquest early in 1945.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Off-Topic

Post by Scott Smith » 30 Aug 2002 09:51

Roberto wrote:No “spam”, whatever that is.

Just some illustrative quotes from the treasure chest of "Revisionist" wisdom.
Well, it's off-topic and I don't want another potential discussion getting subverted so I'm bowing out of this thread. You all know where to find me.
:)

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