Perpetrators of the massacre in Katyn forest

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Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 17 Dec 2004 20:53

To my good friend Xcalibur , in answer to his request :


For your knowledge : I don’t plan to re-open here the topic of Katyn ,since the topic is Soren Kam .But the dialogue slipped about if old men should be trialed and you asked for names of some henchmen of Katyn still alive .So you should be interested to know that in january 1990 , the “News of Moscu” ,a –then-soviet magazine, revealed that two former henchmen of Katyn , one of them IVAN TITKOV , 83 old at that time ,ex-NKVD agent ,showed the journalists another mass grave ,unkown that one ,in a place very near Katyn ,which contained more corpses of victims of the NKVD .

Then the fact that ,in the same year ,1990 ,some american jewish circles started to glorify the henchmen of Katyn because most of them were jews (before to scream the word “antisemitism” ,keep reading ,please – so far you can’t deny that jews and poles didn’t go along verywell ,at last during the war ) and the affair grews so much that Zbignew Brzezinski ,former adviser of US President Carter ,wrote a letter of protest to the American Jewish Committee .

This letter was published in “Commentary” – newsletter of the American Jewish Committee - ,were Brzezinski said : “My fury is that ,even being saturated by revelations of the monumental level of the stalinian crimes ,not one stalinian criminal have been punished (...) Former NKVD major Serepenko ,the “Eichmann of Katyn” ,lives comfortably in Moscu (...) Kaganovitsh ,the henchman of Ukrania lives comfortably in a appartment near the Kremlin (...) Kartachov may bragg to have executed 37 peoples for the NKVD (...) If Kartachov and the other ones have been SS men,it would have been a general mobilisation to exige their trial ....”

Here some names ,my dear friend ....Which takes us back to Soren Kam .In a contrary way ,we may say that if Soren Kam have been an NKVD officer ,nobody would dare to disturb him today .And here is all my point : your commentaries are basically hipocritals .Let’s get Soren Kam ‘cause he was a Nazi ,not ‘cause he was a murderer ,since it’s clear that the murderers of tthe other side have never been bothered .

If you want more infos about the names and origins of some of the perpetrators of Katyn ,have a look at the following :

- “Katyn Massacre” by Louis Fitzgibbon ,Gorgi Illustrated – 1971 (in english)

- “12 meses que cambiaron el mundo “ by Laurence Lesueur (spanish version –the one I have )

- “ Derrota Mundial “ by Salvador Borrego ,Mexico 1966 – in spanish

And in french I may recommend the following articles where lots of details and names appeared :

- article of Gilles Mermoz in “Le Spectacle du Monde” magazine ,June 1990.

- article of Alain Sanders in “Present” newspaper ,April 23th 1990.

- “Rivarol” weekly ,of september 13th 1991.

If you only read english , you may write to the Polish Library ,in London (9 Prince’s Garden ,London S.W. 7 ) ,they have more than 25 documents of the time and sell photocopies .They also have more than 60 books about the Katyn’s topic .

Sarcastic and insulting remarks removed by Mod / Steen Ammentorp

Truly yours ,
Ostuf Chuckles.

Agadanik
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Post by Agadanik » 17 Dec 2004 23:54

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote: Then the fact that ,in the same year ,1990 ,some american jewish circles started to glorify the henchmen of Katyn because most of them were jews (before to scream the word “antisemitism” ,keep reading ,please – so far you can’t deny that jews and poles didn’t go along verywell ,at last during the war ) and the affair grews so much that Zbignew Brzezinski ,former adviser of US President Carter ,wrote a letter of protest to the American Jewish Committee .

This letter was published in “Commentary” – newsletter of the American Jewish Committee - ,were Brzezinski said : “My fury is that ,even being saturated by revelations of the monumental level of the stalinian crimes ,not one stalinian criminal have been punished (...) Former NKVD major Serepenko ,the “Eichmann of Katyn” ,lives comfortably in Moscu (...) Kaganovitsh ,the henchman of Ukrania lives comfortably in a appartment near the Kremlin (...) Kartachov may bragg to have executed 37 peoples for the NKVD (...) If Kartachov and the other ones have been SS men,it would have been a general mobilisation to exige their trial ....”
Ostuf, now I know that you would NEVER knowingly twist, pervert, alter, manipulate or otherwise distort information. I must therefore assume that you were temporarily indisposed when you read Brzezinski's letter, and that's why you didn't understand what you were reading:

1. Brzezinski wrote a letter of admiration, not a letter of protest. Here you go:
I read with great admiration and
also growing anger Marco Carynnyk's
"The Killing Fields of Kiev"
[October]. My anger was not directed
at the author of the article. He
is to be highly commended for a
powerful piece about a dreadful
atrocity. We are in debt to him for
reminding all of us what Stalinism
and Communism were all about. My anger is due to a simple but
glaring fact: to this day, though we
have been saturated with revelation
after revelation of the monumental
scale of Stalinist crimes, literally
not one, not even one Stalinist
murderer has been punished for
Stalinist crimes anywhere by anyone!
2. More bad news, Ostuf. Protesting about absence of prosecution of Katyn murderers, Brzezinski also protests about lack of prosecution of those who took part in Stalin's anti-Jewish purges:
The
Eichmann of the operation, a former
NKVD major by the name of
Serepenko who was in charge of
the "logistics" of the operation,
lives comfortably in Moscow.
The anti-Jewish purges and related
murders occurred in the late
1940's and early 1950's. Any participating
major or captain in the
KGB (the successor to the NKVD)
would be today in his sixties. The
Soviets are still shooting people for
having allegedly collaborated with
the Nazis more than 45 years ago.
Why have no KGB-NKVD veterans
been arrested and put on trial for
Stalinist crimes? Kardanovich, who
orchestrated mass murders in the
Ukraine and was implicated in the
Jewish purges, is a pensioner in an
apartment near the Kremlin.
In other words, rather than accusing "Jews" of murder (that would be inconceivable if you knew anything about Brzezinski), he demands that those who murdered them be punished, just as the murderers of Katyn should be.

I know, Ostuf. I am sure there is an explanation. Perhaps the Jews at "Commentary" forged Brzezinski's letter?
.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 18 Dec 2004 02:24

then-soviet magazine, revealed that two former henchmen of Katyn , one of them IVAN TITKOV , 83 old at that time ,ex-NKVD agent ,showed the journalists another mass grave ,unkown that one ,in a place very near Katyn ,which contained more corpses of victims of the NKVD .
You were asked to provide the names of the perpetrators who are still alive. Besides the fact that Titkov is certainly not alive now, he wasn't a Katyn perpetrator either. He was UNKVD chief's driver, who, by chance, witnessed some of the Katyn-related events.
some american jewish circles started to glorify the henchmen of Katyn because most of them were jews
Interesting. Why do you lie so brazenly? Most of Katyn murderers were non-Jewish. Perhaps you're a Nazi apologist and an antisemite after all?
Former NKVD major Serepenko ,the “Eichmann of Katyn” ,lives comfortably in Moscu
Probably Soprunenko is meant. He has been discussed.
Here some names ,my dear friend
Where?

xcalibur
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Post by xcalibur » 18 Dec 2004 05:52

xcalibur wrote:
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Sinsalabim-salabam :

"Yes indeed. What about them? Or should we wait for the book again?"

Just go to read the topic "Allied rapists" (try the motor -same section of war crimes ) and you will repeat us that . At last you will have no more excuses to play ignorant .

About death squads : Yes ,war is war and it is not nice . Death squads were used by both side : Sipo/SD -collaborationnists and also by terrorist resistants .

Do you want stories of death squads used by your "good side" ???

How about the slaughter of the Jourdan family at Voiron ,France ,1944 ,were even a grandmother (mother of milician local chief Jourdan ) and a TWO MONTHS OLD BABY (the son of milician chief Jourdan ) and his wife were slaughtered in their own house by a resistance death squad ??????

At last Soren Kam killed a political opponent ,not a two months old baby .

And what about the murder of anticommunist (but not collaborationnist ) priest Yann Vari Perrot in Bretagne ,France ,by FTP (communist resistant )
Jean Thépaut in 1943 ??????
Communist death squadrist Jean Thépaut died a natural dead in 1974 ,condecorated with the "medal of resistance " for his death squad job .So stop your hipocresies ,guys ,and start looking at the tree in your own eyes .

Mr Xcalibur : Nice to see you .Your ignorant posts makes me laugh again and again ....Let me go to my archives and I will give you a list ,tomorrow ,of the murderers of Katyn . Please ,don't start bitching about my supposed antisemitism ,'cause most of those murderers were jews .Not my guilt ,and you asked for it !
See you tomorrow with the info (I'm not home now ).

Yours truly Ostuf Charlie .
Nice to see you too, as always.

Well I'm certainly happy to see you laughing although I'm not sure what it is that you find so funny. Please do post the names of those presently living Katyn perpetrators as I'm sure the readership will find it most interesting. I will, of course have to ask for some documentary evidence that they are Jews as you allege. As for accusations of anti-semitism, why would I? You haven't said anything anti-semitic in this thread.

See you on the morrow,

X.
Well Sir, it's Friday, you posted as promised, and I appreciate that. And I see no new evidence. I've read your post and it does perhaps qualify a tu quoque issue, but beyond that falls far short of delivering the promised info... I'll try to dig up the references you mentioned over time, but they still, as has been pointed out above, fall short of the measure..

You will recall that you said you would:

A) Provide evidence of the "STILL ALIVE" (Your words, sir, emphasized to me in fact in a secondary post ) Katyn murderers.

B) Provide evidence that those murderers were Jewish (Which point I asked you you to supply documentary evidence as to their religious background).

You have done neither by any reasonable standard. Again.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 20 Dec 2004 01:26

Well,my source was a newspaper who misunterpreted the letter of Brzezinzky .Now that I saw the original one ,I admitt to have been wrong on it .

Thanks to Agadanik to catch my glitch !

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