First and foremost:
I notice how you list Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania in your figures. Interesting. Do your figures include all those that were murdered by Soviet agents when they were involuntarily annexed to the Soviet Union?
Do your figures include those Balts that escaped the Soviet dragnet the first time but were subsequently caught in it when the gallant "Liberators" arrived in the Baltic states in 1944-1945?
Do your figures include Russians, Ukranians, etc, that disappeared into the Soviet Gulag because they were captured by Axis Troops or served as auxiliarys?
If the Soviets never did naughty things in Germany please explain the mass graves found in Eastern Germany filled with bodies of both sexes that date from the 1950's?
The expression in America about being sent to prison can take many forms - but Alaska is not one of them. "Up the river" or the "joint" are the most common. That the word Gulag is even in the Englsih language is solely the work of Soviet emigres, not US propaganda.
Finally Oleg, why don't you stop displaying over and over the helmet cover from "Full Metal Jacket".
Stalin encouraged mass frenzy against Germans
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Oleg Grigoryev
- Member
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
- Location: Russia
-> MadJim
quote] First and foremost:
I notice how you list Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania in your figures. Interesting. Do your figures include all those that were murdered by Soviet agents when they were involuntarily annexed to the Soviet Union?[/quote] Do you have a reasonable approximation of how many people were murdered by “Soviet Agents”? Total number of deaths for USSR during the war is put at 26,6 million. 16 to 18 million out of that number are dead civilians. Keeping that in mind the “Red Army” or Roberto figures seem to be quite modest.
I notice how you list Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania in your figures. Interesting. Do your figures include all those that were murdered by Soviet agents when they were involuntarily annexed to the Soviet Union?[/quote] Do you have a reasonable approximation of how many people were murdered by “Soviet Agents”? Total number of deaths for USSR during the war is put at 26,6 million. 16 to 18 million out of that number are dead civilians. Keeping that in mind the “Red Army” or Roberto figures seem to be quite modest.
Do I understand you correctly, that you assert that whoever was caught by Red Army was executed?Do your figures include those Balts that escaped the Soviet dragnet the first time but were subsequently caught in it when the gallant "Liberators" arrived in the Baltic states in 1944-1945?
Total number of former POWs arrested amounted to 11283 men or 3.6% from total number of former POWs. In regards to “Vlasovtsi” – contrary to popular belief they were not summarily executed - they ended up mostly in “special settlements” (which are not camps) . The typical time they had to live there was 6 years, after which they received new documents that did not mentioned anything about their imprisonment whatsoever. Between 1946-1947 148079 collaborators were in the custody of MGB; as of January 1st 1953 93446 out of these number were released ; number that remained in custody was 56746.Do your figures include Russians, Ukranians, etc, that disappeared into the Soviet Gulag because they were captured by Axis Troops or served as auxiliarys?
Who said they did not? We are talking about the possibility that the revenge that Red Army brought on the German civilians being sanctioned form above, rather than being a revenge done by soldiers who did not need any motivation due to obvious reasons of what they saw on the occupied territories. Thus far the side who claims that the terror was the policy provided form above fails to provide any official evidence with exception of 1941 propaganda pamphlet.If the Soviets never did naughty things in Germany please explain the mass graves found in Eastern Germany filled with bodies of both sexes that date from the 1950's?
It is GULAG Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerey – the Main Camp Directorate.The expression in America about being sent to prison can take many forms - but Alaska is not one of them. "Up the river" or the "joint" are the most common. That the word Gulag is even in the Englsih language is solely the work of Soviet emigres, not US propaganda.
I happen to like Kubrik in general and this movie in particular. Why does it bother you so much?Finally Oleg, why don't you stop displaying over and over the helmet cover from "Full Metal Jacket".
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Oleg Grigoryev
- Member
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
- Location: Russia
-> StandartenfuehrerSS
First of all what exactly do you mean by “in sending his own civilians into death”. Of course Stalin did not cry for German civilians. He had far more materialistic idea behind his policies –he was planning to build the relations with future Germany along the lines of the policies that he had this Germany prior to 1933. And if you are so eager to know what he though on Germans there you go:I certainly don't pretend to have enough factual data to, bluntly, say that Stalin approved the mass horrors committed upon the defenceless German population, but it would be equally dubious if I said he shed tears for it. Stalin was a madman who did not mind getting his hands soaked with blood, that much is known. When he had no trouble in sending his own civilians into death, why would anybody need to assume he had complexes over the havoc Russians troops committed? Wether he approved or dissaproved in unimportant in the end, the untold horrors took place. Or were Germans no humans, perhaps?
from “Stalin’s Unwanted Child The Soviet Union the German Question and the Founding of the GDR” by Wilfried Loth.In a conversation with the Yugoslavian government delegation visiting in April 1945 for the signing of the Yugoslav-Soviet mutual-assistance pact, he estimated that a German resurgence would come even sooner: "They will recover and very quickly indeed. They are a highly developed industrial nation with an extremely qualified and large working class as well as a technical intelligentsia. Give them twelve or fifteen years, and they'll be back on their feet.”
“They are a strong people. After Bismarck's triumph in 1871, forty years had to pass before they could undertake further aggression. When that failed, they needed a pause for recuperation of twenty or twenty-five years before they could try once again - this time, almost successfully. And who now knows if they won't be ready for battle again in twenty or twenty-five years? Yes, Germany is a strong land although Hilter is in the process of weakening it.”
So he was interested to safe his face as much as it was possible. Stalin became a madman, in the medical sense of this word in the last years of his life. During the 40s he was very much ok. And how is it not important if he approved or disapproved if this the very subject of the thread – “Stalin encouraged mass frenzy against Germans”. Nobody denies that “frenzy” did occur.
Well it is definitely more intelligent than to call your opponents names. Perhaps I was not clear also – it is not about defending Stalin – if it turns out to be that he killed 10 instead of 12 millions or whatever number there is – he is not going to become suddenly likable. He was a dictator who had enough of innocent blood on his hands – nobody except for the ardent communist denies that. It is however about historical precision. Also thing such as manned human flight happens when Russian intelligence is put to work.Yes, very intelligent. It's a mystery to me why any person would want to defend Stalin, but I presume I am dealing with that legendary Russian intelligence.
This what you posted earlyPerhaps it was unclear, but the second translate paragraphe from Ehrenburg's speeches was dated late 44.
Returning back to the original topic, I will leave you with some of the propaganda the Russian army seems to have swallowed very obiedently, as constatated at Nemmersdorf.
"Es gibt nichts Sch³neres f
The concept of "War Crimes" is essentially about 80 years old. Until the end of WW1 such an idea never existed.
The idea of acts in a war being judged by the victors after a war as having been criminal came into being in a frenzy of anti-German hatred, a frenzy which had been unleashed in the English-speaking world by British propagandists almost all of them Jews.
Quite frankly, I have always found the viciousness of anti-German propaganda during WW1 incomprehensible. That any nation could so horrendously malign another is something quite alien to my personal feelings, so it is impossible for me to identify with any of that.
It is telling, that no German propaganda in WW1 or later in WW2 ever even came close to the heinousness of allied propaganda efforts. The efforts of allied propaganda was so vicious as to include the authorization to loot, burn, rape and pillage Germany at will. The result was the most terrible carnage ever visited upon any nation in defeat.
<Note-i cut out the next 3 paragraphs because of 'offensive remarks' on the part of the author>
The concept of "War Crimes" is essentially about 80 years old. Until the end of WW1 such an idea never existed.
The idea of acts in a war being judged by the victors after a war as having been criminal came into being in a frenzy of anti-German hatred, a frenzy which had been unleashed in the English-speaking world by British propagandists almost all of them Jews.
Quite frankly, I have always found the viciousness of anti-German propaganda during WW1 incomprehensible. That any nation could so horrendously malign another is something quite alien to my personal feelings, so it is impossible for me to identify with any of that.
It is telling, that no German propaganda in WW1 or later in WW2 ever even came close to the heinousness of allied propaganda efforts. The efforts of allied propaganda was so vicious as to include the authorization to loot, burn, rape and pillage Germany at will. The result was the most terrible carnage ever visited upon any nation in defeat.
EHRENBURG
With the exception of the Jewish propagandist Elia Ehrenburg, almost no other allied propagandist seems to have been identified by name. The only exception here is another Jew John Heartfield, whose real name was Johann Herzfeld, a man who delighted in inciting anti-German hatred as early as the early 1930's. This Jew's cartoons were so utterly revolting to be beneath contempt. He did with cartoons, what Ehrenburg did with words and Churchill and his Jews did with deeds.
This is in sharp contrast to the German propagandists, who were not afraid to stand behind their work because it was based on unassailable facts rather than malicious character assassination. For their essential honesty they were actually tortured to death by the Allies after WW2.
STREICHER and his AMERICAN MURDERER WOODS
Julius Streicher who was an independent journalist, was subjected to every indignity and to physical torture during his imprisonment.
When he was legally murdered, he was deliberately hung in such a way, that he strangled to death slowly over an eleven minute period. The executioner who had designed the intentionally defective murder/torture scaffold was an American Sergeant by the name of Woods.
He acted under the direct orders of American (Jewish?) superiors. Rather than refusing to design a defective mechanism that he knew would cause an agonizing death, he acquiesed, making him a monster.
Propaganda activities were largely responsible for the unspeakable horrors visited upon the German population between 1945 and 1950.
JEWISH MONSTERS
The bloodthirstiness of the Jew Ehrenburg has no equal in the past century, unless one wants to mention other Jews, such as Kaganovich, who was responsible for the starvation death of several million Ukrainians in the 1920's. I will write an entire article dealing with this historically taboo subject, namely the bloodthirstiness of Jewish propagandists in the future.
In that article, I will deal with the American Jews Morgenthau, Theodore Kaufman and others who designed the most horrendous mass-murder plans the world has ever heard of, all to the applause of the American President FDR and later Harry Truman, that paragon of mid western virtue.
GERMAN PROPAGANDISTS
The German propagandists in WW2 were either hanged at Nuremberg, after being tortured into "Confessions "or, in the case of Dr. Goebbels, committed suicide.
None of them so horrendously misrepresented another nation as did the invisible heroes of allied propaganda efforts. Not even Julius Streicher, in any of his diatribes lied. He did not even misrepresent. He merely spoke the unvarnished truth, in an objectionable manner perhaps, but the truth nevertheless.
That explains the sick hatred world Jewry had for him as they burned his nipples with cigarettes, beat him black and blue, crushed his testicles and held him (!) in contempt of court when he defended himself.
He never gave in, never admitted wrong- doing and never denied his love of Germany, even under the most terrible tortures inflicted upon him by the American-Jewish "interrogators". More on him on a later article.
<Note-the next paragraph was purposelly left out>
The British "investigators" who beat Rudolf Hoess nearly to death in order for him to admit to having gassed 4 million people were possibly also Jews, even though I don't know that for a fact. It doesn't matter whether Hoess was or wasn't an evil man. What matters here is the fact that medieval tortures were used to obtain confessions, none of which held water under scrutiny.
These "confessions" were pre-printed in the English language and he was forced to sign them under the most heinous circumstances. The scum English interrogators were probably given medals for their display of heroism in the face of a defenseless, shackled man.
When Fieldmarshall Erhard Milch, himself half Jewish, a man with an absolutely flawless record in all areas surrendered, a British colonel (no less!) beat him so severely, that he broke the unarmed man's arm so badly, that Milch suffered from crippling pains for the rest of his life. This incident was so serious, due to the international standing of Milch that the British Royal House felt obliged to offer official apologies.
The English monster that had maimed an honorable soldier was of course never prosecuted, heaven forbid.
THE SWEDISH MONSTERS
In 1945 the Swedes, contrary to all laws of justice and to all international conventions surrendered to the Soviets at the point of guns, German soldiers whom they had been obliged to intern according to internationally accepted norms, not to forget common decency. These soldiers had fought heroically at the German city of Pillau against incredible odds, enabling thousands of women and children to flee the raping, murdering soviet hordes. With whatever strength remained them, they had managed to reach, what they thought were safe shores. Without even an iota of justification the Swedes surrendered these men to the soviets who butchered them to the last man.
HEMINGWAY, THE MONSTER
Famed Nobel Prize winning American writer Ernest Hemingway in a letter to a friend describes how he murdered an unarmed German POW in cold blood. "I shot the cock sucker point blank" wrote this paragon of American literary culture.
At another time Hemingway shot a 15 year old German boy who was riding a bicycle. "Gosh, I thought he was one of those fucking Nazis" was his only comment. That murderous bastard is being taught in today's German schools as an example of literary excellence.
<Note-the next 6 paragraphs were left out due to offensive remarks>
I am working on aquiring the article 'The ravishing of the women of conquered Europe' by App as well as statistics on the horrors commited against Germans after WWII. i find it disgusting that some people are taking apathetic and indifferent attitudes about the suffering of Germans after WWII.
The idea of acts in a war being judged by the victors after a war as having been criminal came into being in a frenzy of anti-German hatred, a frenzy which had been unleashed in the English-speaking world by British propagandists almost all of them Jews.
Quite frankly, I have always found the viciousness of anti-German propaganda during WW1 incomprehensible. That any nation could so horrendously malign another is something quite alien to my personal feelings, so it is impossible for me to identify with any of that.
It is telling, that no German propaganda in WW1 or later in WW2 ever even came close to the heinousness of allied propaganda efforts. The efforts of allied propaganda was so vicious as to include the authorization to loot, burn, rape and pillage Germany at will. The result was the most terrible carnage ever visited upon any nation in defeat.
<Note-i cut out the next 3 paragraphs because of 'offensive remarks' on the part of the author>
The concept of "War Crimes" is essentially about 80 years old. Until the end of WW1 such an idea never existed.
The idea of acts in a war being judged by the victors after a war as having been criminal came into being in a frenzy of anti-German hatred, a frenzy which had been unleashed in the English-speaking world by British propagandists almost all of them Jews.
Quite frankly, I have always found the viciousness of anti-German propaganda during WW1 incomprehensible. That any nation could so horrendously malign another is something quite alien to my personal feelings, so it is impossible for me to identify with any of that.
It is telling, that no German propaganda in WW1 or later in WW2 ever even came close to the heinousness of allied propaganda efforts. The efforts of allied propaganda was so vicious as to include the authorization to loot, burn, rape and pillage Germany at will. The result was the most terrible carnage ever visited upon any nation in defeat.
EHRENBURG
With the exception of the Jewish propagandist Elia Ehrenburg, almost no other allied propagandist seems to have been identified by name. The only exception here is another Jew John Heartfield, whose real name was Johann Herzfeld, a man who delighted in inciting anti-German hatred as early as the early 1930's. This Jew's cartoons were so utterly revolting to be beneath contempt. He did with cartoons, what Ehrenburg did with words and Churchill and his Jews did with deeds.
This is in sharp contrast to the German propagandists, who were not afraid to stand behind their work because it was based on unassailable facts rather than malicious character assassination. For their essential honesty they were actually tortured to death by the Allies after WW2.
STREICHER and his AMERICAN MURDERER WOODS
Julius Streicher who was an independent journalist, was subjected to every indignity and to physical torture during his imprisonment.
When he was legally murdered, he was deliberately hung in such a way, that he strangled to death slowly over an eleven minute period. The executioner who had designed the intentionally defective murder/torture scaffold was an American Sergeant by the name of Woods.
He acted under the direct orders of American (Jewish?) superiors. Rather than refusing to design a defective mechanism that he knew would cause an agonizing death, he acquiesed, making him a monster.
Propaganda activities were largely responsible for the unspeakable horrors visited upon the German population between 1945 and 1950.
JEWISH MONSTERS
The bloodthirstiness of the Jew Ehrenburg has no equal in the past century, unless one wants to mention other Jews, such as Kaganovich, who was responsible for the starvation death of several million Ukrainians in the 1920's. I will write an entire article dealing with this historically taboo subject, namely the bloodthirstiness of Jewish propagandists in the future.
In that article, I will deal with the American Jews Morgenthau, Theodore Kaufman and others who designed the most horrendous mass-murder plans the world has ever heard of, all to the applause of the American President FDR and later Harry Truman, that paragon of mid western virtue.
GERMAN PROPAGANDISTS
The German propagandists in WW2 were either hanged at Nuremberg, after being tortured into "Confessions "or, in the case of Dr. Goebbels, committed suicide.
None of them so horrendously misrepresented another nation as did the invisible heroes of allied propaganda efforts. Not even Julius Streicher, in any of his diatribes lied. He did not even misrepresent. He merely spoke the unvarnished truth, in an objectionable manner perhaps, but the truth nevertheless.
That explains the sick hatred world Jewry had for him as they burned his nipples with cigarettes, beat him black and blue, crushed his testicles and held him (!) in contempt of court when he defended himself.
He never gave in, never admitted wrong- doing and never denied his love of Germany, even under the most terrible tortures inflicted upon him by the American-Jewish "interrogators". More on him on a later article.
<Note-the next paragraph was purposelly left out>
The British "investigators" who beat Rudolf Hoess nearly to death in order for him to admit to having gassed 4 million people were possibly also Jews, even though I don't know that for a fact. It doesn't matter whether Hoess was or wasn't an evil man. What matters here is the fact that medieval tortures were used to obtain confessions, none of which held water under scrutiny.
These "confessions" were pre-printed in the English language and he was forced to sign them under the most heinous circumstances. The scum English interrogators were probably given medals for their display of heroism in the face of a defenseless, shackled man.
When Fieldmarshall Erhard Milch, himself half Jewish, a man with an absolutely flawless record in all areas surrendered, a British colonel (no less!) beat him so severely, that he broke the unarmed man's arm so badly, that Milch suffered from crippling pains for the rest of his life. This incident was so serious, due to the international standing of Milch that the British Royal House felt obliged to offer official apologies.
The English monster that had maimed an honorable soldier was of course never prosecuted, heaven forbid.
THE SWEDISH MONSTERS
In 1945 the Swedes, contrary to all laws of justice and to all international conventions surrendered to the Soviets at the point of guns, German soldiers whom they had been obliged to intern according to internationally accepted norms, not to forget common decency. These soldiers had fought heroically at the German city of Pillau against incredible odds, enabling thousands of women and children to flee the raping, murdering soviet hordes. With whatever strength remained them, they had managed to reach, what they thought were safe shores. Without even an iota of justification the Swedes surrendered these men to the soviets who butchered them to the last man.
HEMINGWAY, THE MONSTER
Famed Nobel Prize winning American writer Ernest Hemingway in a letter to a friend describes how he murdered an unarmed German POW in cold blood. "I shot the cock sucker point blank" wrote this paragon of American literary culture.
At another time Hemingway shot a 15 year old German boy who was riding a bicycle. "Gosh, I thought he was one of those fucking Nazis" was his only comment. That murderous bastard is being taught in today's German schools as an example of literary excellence.
<Note-the next 6 paragraphs were left out due to offensive remarks>
I am working on aquiring the article 'The ravishing of the women of conquered Europe' by App as well as statistics on the horrors commited against Germans after WWII. i find it disgusting that some people are taking apathetic and indifferent attitudes about the suffering of Germans after WWII.
Tchort,
<Note-i cut out the next 3 paragraphs because of 'offensive remarks' on the part of the author>
Don't you want to tell us at least who the author of the BS you quoted is?
And why leave out that author's offensive remarks? Nothing better than such remarks to show our audience what the fellow is all about and what is to be thought of his contentions.
Why so ashamed to show certain utterances of your gurus, True Believer?
<Note-i cut out the next 3 paragraphs because of 'offensive remarks' on the part of the author>
Don't you want to tell us at least who the author of the BS you quoted is?
And why leave out that author's offensive remarks? Nothing better than such remarks to show our audience what the fellow is all about and what is to be thought of his contentions.
Why so ashamed to show certain utterances of your gurus, True Believer?