…………………….Erik wrote:
Why do the “Revisionists” make a fuss about a “piss in the ocean”, while “pooh-pooh”-ing the documented genocidal intent of a criminal siege policy?
Easy, my dear philosopher:
The "soap" stuff is puny, laughable attempt to discredit the findings of criminal justice and historiography regarding the crimes of your beloved Nazis.
“…discredit…” is the word! The demand for it is endless. No matter how “puny, laughable” the attempt is, the opportunity is never missed.
“Don’t fight prejudices! Use them!” (Pareto).
There are philosophers (and lawyers) for all kinds of uses of them. Even criminal justice and historiography are known to have had “beloved” clients for some of their “findings”.
……………………..
……………….The reasoning, imbecile enough, is
"if they were dead wrong (or 'lied') about the soap, they were also dead wrong (or 'lied') about other things."
If the IMT concluded that the Nazis made experiments of soap production from human fat, they implied that the Nazis were also capable of entering other “realms of madness”, right?
So “… if they were dead right about the soap, they were also dead right about other things.”
The question is, who is patronizing imbecility?
…………As criminal justice never mentioned anything other than the Danzig soap experiments and historians never endorsed the "RIF" myth, the fuss-makers have to more or less create to object of their fuss-making themselves.
They do so by conflating the findings on the Danzig experiments, supported by evidence, with the never confirmed "RIF" rumors.
“Don’t fight rumors. Conflate them.” (Paretian corollary).
……………………..
…………The siege of Leningrad is a wholly different issue altogether.
Here the true believers are confronted with documentary evidence to their beloved Nazis' criminal intentions and procedures hitherto hidden in the archives, and their reaction is just the one you would expect of true believers: they try to make out that the documents don't say what they all too obviously say.
“…intentions and procedures hitherto hidden in the archives…” ; Hidden? How? Never put to practice, but intended?
Or it is the other way around? The apparent procedures during the siege is corroborated by the documentary evidence?
The alleged (?)”necessities” of siege warfare are shown to have been contemplated and intended “virtues”?
Like : they never occupied the city. The documentary evidence shows that they never intended to do this.
They were never offered a capitulation. The documentary evidence shows that they would have refused such an offer.
They never offered capitulation. The documentary evidence shows that they never intended to offer it.
They implemented a siege warfare leading to the death of about a million people. The documentary evidence shows that they intended this.
Perhaps this has been “intentions and procedures hitherto hidden in the archives” in order not to belittle the heroic and victorious struggle of the population of Leningrad in Sovjet history writing?
When they have realized that they're getting nowhere with that, they will probably start squealing "forgery", as they usually do in such cases.
The “hiding” of this evidence – “hitherto” (see above) – has perhaps been part of a “forgery” of patriotic communist history? “Falsification by omission”?
Now the evidence is used to “revise” history? There are new clients, new uses? Reshaping of Orthodoxy?
No, the word existed long before my “twisted little mind”. “Orthodox” means “according with accepted opinion”, “spec. epithet of the Eastern Church”, according to Onions’ Etymology.Erik wrote:
And the “mirror” question:
Why do the Orthodoxy want to “bury” the Soap bar and still “smear” the Nazis with it, while making the German ambition to win the war in Russia part and parcel of the Holocaust?
First thing, "orthodoxy" exists only in the philosopher's twisted little mind.
“Revisionism” wasn’t invented by my “twisted little mind” either, by the way (see above). It has a long church history, and is applicable on every “doxy”, even those that criminalize it.
Second, historians have never either endorsed the "RIF" soap rumors or made much of the experiments at the Danzig Anatomical Institute, which remained an isolated nutcase.
They endorse your “realm of madness”, though, which means that they should problematize why the experiment “remained an isolated nutcase”. Why is it “nothing that they consider particular”, when the folklore of it reigns supreme? Compare the Jewish “human sacrifice”allegation!
The psychoanalyst Eric Berne once compared – or rather “differentiated” – count Tolstoy and marquis de Sade, and characterized the works of the latter as within the creative capacity of every teenager brat who was angry with Mom. “Nothing that he would consider particular”, in other words – but all the more interesting to a psychoanalyst, one would think!! Count Tolstoy should be registered among the “isolated nutcases” instead – beyond our capacity to “consider”!
…………………………Erik wrote:
If the “realm of madness” – postulation from the Soap Issue is maintained here, it can just as well be argued that an extant, documented order to offer capitulation and to accept it if it were offered, would be a clear indication of a genocidal intent from the Nazis. The sheer madness - from a military point of view - of undertaking to feed and house the population of Leningrad during a war of this scale can only be understood if we take into consideration the overall Nazi policy in the East – to exterminate the entire population.
Roberto:
Whoever hinted that the philosopher may be out of his mind seems to have been right.
What I had in mind – or out of it – to implement to the imagined order of offering capitulation and accepting it, was the technique of “decoding” the German “Tarnsprache”, allegedly necessary to understand the hidden extermination plans of the Germans.
Of course, it is possible that this necessity only applies to the SS and the Final Solution. The Wehrmacht never had any “codes” of this sort, perhaps?
But the everyday military expressions of “capitulation” and “surrender” could also have been used to hide a “secret” agenda! Like “Sonderbehandlung” and “durchschleusen” for the Final Solution!
If the documented directions of the Führer demanded that the army was to live on the conquered resources of the East ( plus the documented “Hungerplan”), then can an order to accept capitulation and its duty of sharing the same resources, be interpreted as a code for extermination.
Was this duty considered by the Nazis to have priority over the “Hungerplan”?Feeding and accomodating the conquered population was the Germans' duty as conquerors, as they themselves acknowleged (see e.g. document 4).
A postulated “realm of madness” makes all kinds of madness “unparticular”, as you have reasoned on the Soap issue.And it was by no means a mad undertaking, but something that could have been done if the willingness had existed - after all the Germans never had any problems in adequately feeding their own population or
the population of other conquered countries, especially in Western Europe.
There is no limit to what “could have been done if the willingness had existed” either. If Stalin had had the welfare of the Leningrad population foremost on his socialist agenda he could have ordered a cessation of hostilities for the time necessary for the Germans to undertake their “duty as conquerors” – but then, the philosopher is “out of his mind”, of course.
Whether the accommodation of the population of Leningrad by the Germans was a military duty or madness, in case of a capitulation, is a legal and logistical question for professionals.
If the German had shown willingness to accept their duty as civilized warriors, you could easily deduce other plans than “feeding and accommodating” from a postulated “realm of madness”.
Like the following :
Then the qualitative difference between my “nonsense” and the fostering of a genocidal intention on the Germans because they wanted the Leningrad population “off their hands by any means” will also be “actually less than it might appear to be at first sight”.Erik wrote:
What the German wanted most of all(remember the postulation!) was a chance to lay their hands on the people of Leningrad and let it meet the fate of the Jewish inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto in the extermination camp Treblinka.
Roberto:
Nonsense.
They wanted it off their hands by any means, so as not having to feed it.
Which in terms of the ultimate result was equivalent to locking them in a starvation ghetto or taking them to an extermination camp indeed, but had the advantage of being much less conspicuous.
As the extermination camps were also largely created in order to get rid of "useless eaters", the qualitative difference is actually less than it might appear to be at first sight
The reason I posted the quotes from the “American Almanach” was to illustrate how it is possible to foster an “intention” on someone by using rhetoric as documentation.( Here: “The shocking adoption of an official (if secret) policy by the United States”).Quote:
As I already said, I have no problem with considering such a policy as genocidal. Whether you kill people or let them die merely out of ideological hatred or also because and to the extent that they would otherwise upset your economical calculations hardly makes a difference to the application of the term, in my opinion.
Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:24 am
Reading the quotes in the light of Roberto’s statement (above) can give a clue to the technique of “fostering” genocidal intents on any refusal to accommodate “useless eaters”.
By the way, I thought the philosopher supported the application of McNamaran policies in Europe in order to keep his meager Swedish pension from being eaten up by immigrants "following the buck".
Has he changed his mind in the meantime?
I’m flattered that you remember our earlier exchanges – your misrepresentation of my “stand” concerning the said policies is an occupational habit, I guess.
In fact there are politicians around over here who uses the “American Almanach” rhetoric to suggest a official (but secret!!!) genocidal policy of “Festung Europa”. The refusal to accommodate and feed the “capitulated” economies of of the Third World can be described in terms of your statement above.
But the rhetorical table can be turned in the manner of my “nonsense” above! Those politicians perhaps is shouldering their “duty as conquerors” to accommodate “useless eaters” to the redundant welfare economies of Europe, in order to “exterminate” democratic socialism with the help of immigrant “Sonderkommandos”. A “scorched socialism policy”, using the multicultural ex-Communist countries and their low-scale internal wars as models.
Once you’re into the game of deducing intentions from rhetoric, you will have to face that the game can be played both ways.
There is a “language problem” here, I guess. It is difficult to use the irony of idioms you don’t master. The “…, don’t you think?” of the last sentence quoted was of course meant as such.Erik wrote:
How much Hitler was willing or able to learn from history is debatable, I guess, but perhaps he contemplated a kind of “inverted” Scorched Earth Policy? When Kutusov practiced this against Napoleon, he probably wanted to “saddle” the French with the necessity of feeding and housing the Russian peasants within their occupied – and his abandoned – territory, don’t you think?
At a time when it was standard practice for armies to live off the land, the "scorched earth" policy of retreating forces had the purpose of depriving the advancing conqueror of supplies.
Hardly a comparable situation.
Neither Kutusov nor Nappy cared all that much about the fate of the peasants, “scorched” or plundered.
20th century equivalents didn’t either.
Here is a quote from one of your documentations:
Quote: […]1.) The war can only be continued if the whole Wehrmacht is fed out of Russia in the 3rd war year.
2.) Due to this umpteen million people will doubtlessly starve to death when we take what is necessary for us out of the land.
3.) Most important is the collection and shipment of oil seeds and oil cake, only thereafter of grain. The available fat and meat will presumably be consumed by the troops.[…]
Erik wrote:
Hitler hoped that it would work the other way around this time? Stalin would make the mistake of Nappy?
(Please note! My attempt at irony is continued! Napoleon of course never contemplated making any such “mistake”!)
Roberto answered:
I remember a quote from an American general(?) Westmoreland during the Vietnam war : he wanted to “bomb North Vietnam back to the Stone Age”. Rhetoric, of course ; but you can say that he “established that a sizable part of the North Vietnamese population, including and especially the population of huge urban centers like Hanoi, must starve to death.”No, Adolf wanted a maximum of food for his troops and the German home front and thus established that a sizable part of the Soviet population, including and especially the population of huge urban centers like Leningrad, must starve to death.
This doesn’t “prove” that Hitler was “right”. And Westmoreland probably stated his bellicose view to the newspapers to strenghten the home front. Hitler signed orders.
Perhaps there is documentation where the American general used other words, like “the military duty to feed and accommodate” the North Vietnamese population? The Pentagon perhaps sent such correspondense secretly to each other? Perhaps we will find out when they get published?
???? Little Father Stalin refused to send his children to the known molester and exterminator Hitler, who was raping Russia before his very eyes? But he considered them grown enough to defend themselves?Erik wrote:
But Stalin postulated the “realm of madness”(Roberto’s) that destinated the population of Leningrad to an extermination camp? That is why he forbade capitulation, without emulating Napoleon?
The philosopher also seems to be an adept of the rapist's logic that blames his crime on the parents of his teenage victim who let her out on the streets at night.
You seem to suggest that Stalin didn’t believe his own BS, that he knew that Hitler would shoulder his duty as a civilized warrior, and consequently feed and accommodate the population of Leningrad?
He trusted Hitler? Just as he trusted the patriotic committment of the same population, to defend the communist Fatherland to the last drop of blood?
Erik wrote:
Is this rhetoric? Obfuscating a murderous crime of modern history by turning the attention away from the terrible faith of nearly a million human beings, to a play with words?
I wouldn't even call it "rhetoric".
I'd call it a showpiece of "Revisionist" lunacy.
OK, this is written somewhat late in the night, and the moon is shining. (“Lunacy : orig. of the intermittent kind attributed to changes of moon”, acc. to Oxford Concise Dict.)(from “luna” L.)
There are the big enormous questions of the righteous war, the right to fight, to revolt, to defend yourself , what is ours, yours, mine, thine(of descending or ascending rightfulness, according to preferences) lurking somewhere in the background.
Now that the democratic countries of the West are once again urged to shoulder their onerous pledge to crusade against terrorism and antidemocratism and racism and antisemitism (no irony intended, language problem sustained), we will be challenged to interpret intentions from rhetoric, decode documents, postulate “realms of madness”(Roberto) etc etc ; in short, be obliged or tempted (Orthodoxies will frown!) to learn from the lessons of history.
The battle or siege of Leningrad and its documentation can be a sort of trainingground.
What is Right, historically? Might?
There is a Forum for Virtual History here at ThirdReich Forum, I think (not having looked into it).
“What would have happended, if…?” Etc.
“Virtual” in optics means “relating to points at which rays would meet if produced backwards (virtual focus, image)”(Oxford Concise Dict.)
History “optics” can be described that way, using documents as “rays”, “produced backwards” to “focus” on an event.
But there are “shadows” to be reckoned with , if the rays are “produced” from only one angle. What is hiding there?
Is it “lunacy”, i e, optics from the rays of “moonshine” (see def. above), to ask what would it would look like in the light from the classified archives of the victors?
Stalins orders to the Red Army at Leningrad? Are they current, like Hitler’s? Is it possible that they change the “optics” of Leningrad?
Like this?
All “what they all too obviously say” about “criminal intentions and procedures” will be “made out” in another light/optics/”virtual image”, if there are documentary evidence available that the other side had comparable intentions and procedures.The siege of Leningrad is a wholly different issue altogether.
Here the true believers are confronted with documentary evidence to their beloved Nazis' criminal intentions and procedures hitherto hidden in the archives, and their reaction is just the one you would expect of true believers: they try to make out that the documents don't say what they all too obviously say.
The difference would then be that this “other side” had the RIGHT to such “intentions and procedures”, since they were defending themselves against an aggressor.
The “intentions and procedures” are then designed “criminal” according to who had the RIGHT TO WIN.