Machine-gunned whilst parachuting
I would say yes, there is a difference. Survivors from a sunken ship will die of exposure or drown unless they are rescued quite quickly or can paddle to land. And in the critical stages of the Battle of the Atlantic British ships had orders not to stop to pick up survivors in case they were torpedoed themselves. Also, in the Battle of the Atlantic, most survivors from sunken ships were merchant navy crewmen - i.e. civilians. Shooting a helpless enemy soldier, sailor or airman is one thing, shooting a a helpless civilian is something else. Finally, U-boats didn't pick up survivors.Juha Tompuri wrote:
Is there a (moral)difference to gun down bailed out pilots and survivors from a sunken ship?
Regards, Juha
A shot-down pilot in a parachute (unless he's bailed out over the sea) is going to land safely on solid ground. If he's in his own territory, that means he'll be back in action within a very short time.
Adolf Galland mentions in his autobiography "The First and the Last" (1954) that Goering approached himslef and Molders to ask their opinion on an order to shoot at bailed out airmen in their parachutes. Galland claims he said it would be tantamnet to murder and said he would do his best to disobey such an order should it ever be given. According to Galland, Goering accepted this answer and an order to shoot parachuting airmen was never given. (This does ofcourse not mean that it never happened).
OMK
OMK
Something not mentioned before is that fighter pilots, at least in the european theatre, where professionals with mutual respect for each other. The same is true for U-boot captains and crews, their adversaries were sailors like themselves, like all humans they have a concience, their orders were to sink ships - not killing sailors. In both cases the top of the command had a high moral and did not encourage "dirty deeds". The importance of that cant be overrated as modern examples have shown.
Holger
Holger
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barkhorn45
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In Walter Musciano's book "Messersschmitt Aces"he mention's two pilot shot by allied pilots whilst parachuting.Oberfeldwebel Rudolf Ehrenberger of 6/Jg 53 was killed on March 8 1944 after scoring his 49 victory.Oberleutnant Franz Barton was killed on August 4th 1944 while flying his 895th mission for JG53.As for survivors of sunken ships I recall a scene on some documentary of a submarine crew joyfully machinegunning the survivors of a japanese troop ship they had just sank while they floated helplessly in the water.And another british propagand newsreel that showed a Beufighter strafing the survivors of a german ship that had just been sunk,the narrator gleefully announcing that these germans won't live to fight another day.War is hell I guess
I would like to suggest that we make a sticky topic from this subject with a title:Axis pilots shot while parachuting, there we collect information from these incidents.
Example:
Date of the Incident, Pilots name, Rank, Victories, Unit, Place, A name of the perperator/his unit etc.
That would be along topic.
Best regards,
Rauli
Example:
Date of the Incident, Pilots name, Rank, Victories, Unit, Place, A name of the perperator/his unit etc.
That would be along topic.
Best regards,
Rauli
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Ten. Gianluca Missi
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- Location: Italy
Just my two cents.
I've seen contributors suggesting that the cruelty against downed pilots bailing out developped later in the war...but I recall reading that at the very beginning of the war in North Africa ,even when airwar didn't show its cruelty , quite a few Italian pilots after bailing out of damaged planes were pursued by attacking British planes and then shot with repeated strafing of the parachute and of the pilot.
I'll come back with the exact episode.
Rules of combact prevent from shooting an enemy unable to continue fighting...and IMHO a bailed out pilot is unable to continue his fight...
If you shoot at escaping enemies because they might fight again against you there is no reason not for shooting on Red Cross and MedEvac...chance are that all you victims might have come back to fighting...but everybody would pursue as a war criminal a soldier shooting at the red cross.
If I was a fighter I wouldn't be too proud of adding a parachute to my tally.
I'll come back with the exact episode.
Rules of combact prevent from shooting an enemy unable to continue fighting...and IMHO a bailed out pilot is unable to continue his fight...
If you shoot at escaping enemies because they might fight again against you there is no reason not for shooting on Red Cross and MedEvac...chance are that all you victims might have come back to fighting...but everybody would pursue as a war criminal a soldier shooting at the red cross.
If I was a fighter I wouldn't be too proud of adding a parachute to my tally.
Interesting excerpt from legendary luftwaffe´s ace General Adolf Galland authorized interview from 1994.He was telling about his last action in which he was shot down...
".....WWII: Tell us about April 26. That was your last combat flight wasn't it?
Galland: Yes, I was shot down by a Republic P-47D flown by a man named James Finnegan, whom I met some years later, and we became friends. We were intercepting bombers near Neuberg. I was leading a flight, and I attacked from the rear, astern. My rockets did not fire, but I poured 30mm cannon shells into one bomber, which fell in flames, and flew right through the formation, hitting another. I could not tell if that bomber was finished off, so I banked around for another run, all the while my jet was receiving hits from the bombers' defensive fire. Suddenly my instrument panel disintegrated, my canopy was shattered, and my right knee was struck. I was losing power and was in great pain. I thought about parachuting out but realized that might be dangerous, as some of our pilots had been strafed upon exiting their jets. I flew for the deck and headed for this field at the air base, which was under attack. I cut the power to my good engine and thumped across the field. My nose wheel had been flattened, and smoke was pouring from my plane. I climbed out to get away, in case it should explode, only to find aircraft dropping bombs and firing rockets at me. Well, our mission netted five victories total, and none of the pilots were killed. From that point forward, Bär took operational command, and every unit in Germany with jets began bringing them to us at Reim airfield, near Munich. For such a long time I had been begging for planes. Now that the war was almost over I had more planes than men to fly them....."
Cheerz/
".....WWII: Tell us about April 26. That was your last combat flight wasn't it?
Galland: Yes, I was shot down by a Republic P-47D flown by a man named James Finnegan, whom I met some years later, and we became friends. We were intercepting bombers near Neuberg. I was leading a flight, and I attacked from the rear, astern. My rockets did not fire, but I poured 30mm cannon shells into one bomber, which fell in flames, and flew right through the formation, hitting another. I could not tell if that bomber was finished off, so I banked around for another run, all the while my jet was receiving hits from the bombers' defensive fire. Suddenly my instrument panel disintegrated, my canopy was shattered, and my right knee was struck. I was losing power and was in great pain. I thought about parachuting out but realized that might be dangerous, as some of our pilots had been strafed upon exiting their jets. I flew for the deck and headed for this field at the air base, which was under attack. I cut the power to my good engine and thumped across the field. My nose wheel had been flattened, and smoke was pouring from my plane. I climbed out to get away, in case it should explode, only to find aircraft dropping bombs and firing rockets at me. Well, our mission netted five victories total, and none of the pilots were killed. From that point forward, Bär took operational command, and every unit in Germany with jets began bringing them to us at Reim airfield, near Munich. For such a long time I had been begging for planes. Now that the war was almost over I had more planes than men to fly them....."
Cheerz/
Re: Just my two cents.
Sorry, but while shooting at an enemy unable to continue fighting may not be nice, under international law its only a crime if the enemy is trying to surrender or has already surrendered.Ten. Gianluca Missi wrote:
Rules of combact prevent from shooting an enemy unable to continue fighting...and IMMO a bailed out pilot is unable to continue his fight...
In the Battle of Britain the RAF shot down a number of Luftwaffe seaplanes carrying the red cross which were being used as air-sea rescue aircraft. However the RAF was totally justified in doing so, because the Luftwaffe was misusing the symbol.If you shoot at escaping enemies because they might fight again against you there is no reason not for shooting on Red Cross and MedEvac...chance are that all you victims might have come back to fighting...but everybody would pursue as a war criminal a soldier shooting at the red cross.
.
The Red Cross is only supposed to be used for the transport and rescue of wounded, the vast majority of those rescued weren't, and red cross aircraft are only allowed to fly in disputed airspace with the permission of both sides, this the Germans didn't have, if fact the British government had officially warned the Germans not to do so.
Quote: "According to Don Caldwells "JG 26", the allied practice of shooting down german chutes by allied fighters became more common after the Stalag Luft III massacre. German airmen would try to bail out as low as possible to avoid being shot down. AFAIK german airmen were occationally shot on sight if they landed in allied territory. "
I read Caldwell's "JG 26:Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" too, great book, and I think he also mentioned a spike in german pilots being shot helplessly in their parachutes by allied pilots around the time of the Battle of the Bulge. This was attributed to the fact that news of the "Malmedy Massacre" had spread all overa allied forces at the time and angered personel from all the services, including the USAAF... this is particularly sad since some poor, bad-luck Luftwaffe pilot would have had no idea about the massacre, let alone have any remote connection to it.
I read Caldwell's "JG 26:Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" too, great book, and I think he also mentioned a spike in german pilots being shot helplessly in their parachutes by allied pilots around the time of the Battle of the Bulge. This was attributed to the fact that news of the "Malmedy Massacre" had spread all overa allied forces at the time and angered personel from all the services, including the USAAF... this is particularly sad since some poor, bad-luck Luftwaffe pilot would have had no idea about the massacre, let alone have any remote connection to it.
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Ten. Gianluca Missi
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- Location: Italy
Hi
Hereafter you'll find an extract from my "Manuale del Combattente" (Soldier's Manual) issued to Italian soldiers as well as any NATO country , maybe in different words but with the same spirit , being STANAG , I'll try to translate at my best :
80 - 4 Stop fighting the enemy if surrending or out of combat. Capture , disarm , handle to your superiors . Respect and protect both the shipwrecked and the airplane wrecked .
81 It is prohibited to carry out any act of hostility against personnel , means of transport and installations carrying any of the following symbols (safe if as a legitimate reaction against acts of hostility)
Symbols being : International Red Cross ; Military Red Cross ; Civil Protection ; Sites of Cultural Interest ; Places were dangerous forces are contained dams (no dam busters) ; nuclear powerplants ... ; White flag holders ; Hospitals , jails etc... ; United Nations (and those carrying its flag)
This is an extract in plain words of Hague Convention 1899 ; Geneva Convention 1949 ; Additions to the Geneva Convention 1977 ; World Convention for the protection of Sites of Cultural Interest 1954 etc... and Hague Convention 1907 .
I remember Gross Admiral Doenitz was sued as a war criminal for ordering its U-boote not to pick up shipwrecked personnel after sinking of Allied vessels , that order came after the bombing and consequent sinking of an U-boot during the rescue of Allied personnel from a vessel it had just torpedoed.
Looks like a dicotomy allowing an act of pure venegance such as shooting to bailed out pilots and condemning the order given by Doenitz (I know he was later aquitted)
If you accept the massacre of Stalag Luft III as an excuse/explanation for shooting down bailed out pilots how do you excuse/explain shooting at Italian pilots in 1940 / 1941 in Northern Africa? Most of these acts took place after the pilot had victories in the same dogfight and this looks very much like venegance .
Gian
80 - 4 Stop fighting the enemy if surrending or out of combat. Capture , disarm , handle to your superiors . Respect and protect both the shipwrecked and the airplane wrecked .
81 It is prohibited to carry out any act of hostility against personnel , means of transport and installations carrying any of the following symbols (safe if as a legitimate reaction against acts of hostility)
Symbols being : International Red Cross ; Military Red Cross ; Civil Protection ; Sites of Cultural Interest ; Places were dangerous forces are contained dams (no dam busters) ; nuclear powerplants ... ; White flag holders ; Hospitals , jails etc... ; United Nations (and those carrying its flag)
This is an extract in plain words of Hague Convention 1899 ; Geneva Convention 1949 ; Additions to the Geneva Convention 1977 ; World Convention for the protection of Sites of Cultural Interest 1954 etc... and Hague Convention 1907 .
I remember Gross Admiral Doenitz was sued as a war criminal for ordering its U-boote not to pick up shipwrecked personnel after sinking of Allied vessels , that order came after the bombing and consequent sinking of an U-boot during the rescue of Allied personnel from a vessel it had just torpedoed.
Looks like a dicotomy allowing an act of pure venegance such as shooting to bailed out pilots and condemning the order given by Doenitz (I know he was later aquitted)
If you accept the massacre of Stalag Luft III as an excuse/explanation for shooting down bailed out pilots how do you excuse/explain shooting at Italian pilots in 1940 / 1941 in Northern Africa? Most of these acts took place after the pilot had victories in the same dogfight and this looks very much like venegance .
Gian
OK, if the logic is that it's war, and you do whatever it takes to win, even shooting parachuting pilots of downed planes (in the air or once they hit the ground) then it should have been perfectly legal and right for German to kill any parachuting survivors of shot down allied bombers. After all, tens of thousands of German civilians were being killed daily (and nightly) by allied area bombing of cities--do you think that when bomber crew members started dropping from the sky and landing in their backyards that the civilians would want to invite them in for a cup of coffee? Hell no! They would want a little retribution too, the same as that fighter pilot whose buddy just got shot down. Problem was, this was murder in the eyes of the allies. I've read of numerous instances of this, but the only one I can think of off the top of my head can be found in the book Jane's Battles With The Luftwaffe by Theo Boiten and Martin Bowman, 2001. On page 159 is the brief story of a B-24H "Hula Wahina II" shot down by flak on July 31, 1944 and the co-pilot and tail gunner were killed by Volksturmer after parachuting. After the war eight Germans were tried in court for "murder" of the two crewmen--3 were sentenced to death by hanging, 2 received life sentences and one got 4 years in jail. Seems like a bit of a double standard......if all is fair in war, then ALL should be fair in war.
Re: Just my two cents.
Geneva convention:redcoat wrote:Sorry, but while shooting at an enemy unable to continue fighting may not be nice, under international law its only a crime if the enemy is trying to surrender or has already surrendered.Ten. Gianluca Missi wrote:
Rules of combact prevent from shooting an enemy unable to continue fighting...and IMMO a bailed out pilot is unable to continue his fight...
Part III. Methods and Means of Warfare Combatant and Prisoners-Of-War
Section I. Methods and Means of Warfare
Art. 42 - Occupants of aircraft
1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.
2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.
3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.
http://www.genevaconventions.org/