Machine-gunned whilst parachuting

[Andy H]

I have found a nice witnesses of such a crime on the official site of the President of the Republic. This italian pilot received a postumous gold medal for bravery(MOVM) because he faced 5 enemies all alone then he shot down 2 of those, the 3 survivors then shot down him as first and soon they strafed the brave pilot after having bailed out. Alam Alfa, 3 October 1942. Another black dot on the flag of the british RAF.

I have no proof one way or the other concerning this alleged event. However a 'Crime' can only be recorded as such if the relative authorities are notified and thus able to take action against those persons alleged to have committed the crime. Otherwise is just heresay

Andy H

[gabriel pagliarani]

I have found a nice witnesses of such a crime on the official site of the President of the Republic. This italian pilot received a postumous gold medal for bravery(MOVM) because he faced 5 enemies all alone then he shot down 2 of those, the 3 survivors then shot down him as first and soon they strafed the brave pilot after having bailed out. Alam Alfa, 3 October 1942. Another black dot on the flag of the british RAF.

I have no proof one way or the other concerning this alleged event. However a 'Crime' can only be recorded as such if the relative authorities are notified and thus able to take action against those persons alleged to have committed the crime. Otherwise is just heresay

Andy H

What other kind of proof do you need? The President of the Republic is a liar in your statement, and the Presidential site contains liars. It seems an auto-goal from you and now you are not believable as moderator.

[Ten. Gianluca Missi]

I'm coming back to you all in 2 hours with any data you may need about a further strafing of an Italian pilot that had bailed out from his plane .

I'll give you exact date and location enabling you all to possibly trace the name and squadron of the brave, valliant and feraless british pilot that fought with indomitable courage against a parachute finally succeding in shooting it down in an epic fight that by right can be counted as one of the battles that won the war .

We can all be very ironic but given the subject we are discussing I would like to bring the whole matter within the lines of a polite discussion.

Gian

[gabriel pagliarani]

.....As a matter of fact I still haven't found evidences of bailed out pilots strafed by German (Goering expressely prohibited) and or Italian fighters...

.....We can all be very ironic but given the subject we are discussing I would like to bring the whole matter within the lines of a polite discussion...

Oh! Now you have some of those evidences you had not before. What has changed in your opinions? Tenente, next time be sure of your statements before louding, we are yet facing criticists from foreigner party, sometimes masked as moderators. Therefore much better being inheducate than inadequate: uphold your Army rank.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Any way , this is another suitable link:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:OTND ... otti&hl=it
FREE TRANSLATION:
Cpt. Livio Ceccotti pilot of 90a Squadriglia C.T., Mc 202, all alone he engaged 5 foe fighters. After having shot down 2 of those his plane was hit and he bailed out. But he was strafed in air by survived enemies whilst parachuting.
BTW
The source is the Ministry of Defence (..the actual, not the fascist WW2 equivalent..) Is not enough as "proof"?

[Ten. Gianluca Missi]

I'm coming back about the other strafing when I can get hold of my books , anyway what follows are further informations about Captain Livio Ceccotti:

Dogfight took place October the 2nd 1942 on the vertical of El Alamein Captain Livio Ceccotti was leader of 90th squadron of 4th flight mounted on Macchi Mc 202 "Folgore" his squadron , based at Fuka , was outnumbered by a formation of Spitfires or P40 (P 40 according to Giulio Lazzati "I soliti quattro gatti") he was chased by 5 attackers and after downing 2 of them with the aicraft damaged was obliged to bail out. According to those that flew with him that day all of the three attackers left made multiple strafing runs on the parachute.

Witness are a conspicuous number of Bersaglieri of 8th Rgt. of Divisione "Ariete" entrenched just below the portion of sky were the combat took place and all of his comrades .

Now I'm sure that by searching the losses sustained by RAF and or other commonwealth airforces that day we can trace the squadron to which that planes belong and possibly the names of the pilots involved that maybe claimed that victory.

Gian

[gabriel pagliarani]

I'm coming back about the other strafing when I can get hold of my books , anyway what follows are further informations about Captain Livio Ceccotti:

Dogfight took place October the 2nd 1942 on the vertical of El Alamein Captain Livio Ceccotti was leader of 90th squadron of 4th flight mounted on Macchi Mc 202 "Folgore" his squadron , based at Fuka , was outnumbered by a formation of Spitfires or P40 (P 40 according to Giulio Lazzati "I soliti quattro gatti") he was chased by 5 attackers and after downing 2 of them with the aicraft damaged was obliged to bail out. According to those that flew with him that day all of the three attackers left made multiple strafing runs on the parachute.

Witness are a conspicuous number of Bersaglieri of 8th Rgt. of Divisione "Ariete" entrenched just below the portion of sky were the combat took place and all of his comrades .

Now I'm sure that by searching the losses sustained by RAF and or other commonwealth airforces that day we can trace the squadron to which that planes belong and possibly the names of the pilots involved that maybe claimed that victory.

Gian

Surely nobody claimed such a war-crime. The rules of RAF are extremely though against such criminal habits out of any spirit of gallantry. The battle happened on the zenith of Alam Halfa and the italian trenches were not probably signed on flight charts, so the killers thought to have no real eye-witness watching their perfect crime. But they were wrong and now they have covered with mud the memory of their 2 brave KIA comrades. A dirty job, indeed. Much better to look for a Sqdn. having lost a couple of pilots simultaneously the same day.

[gabriel pagliarani]

Surely they were P-40s held or by SA, NZ and AUS, not Spits involved in other fightings far from Alam Halfa. But there are a lot of incongruences in available reports. What are the differences between "Kittyhawks" and "Tomahawks" ? The key could be there.

[Ten. Gianluca Missi]

I found out that if there ever was any doubt no american unit was involved in fightings against Regia's planes that day

http://www.usaaf.net/chron/42/oct42.htm

According to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne" /German edition of "Fighters over the desert") authors Shores and Ring conclude that it is possible that Cap. Livio Ceccotti and Ten. Ezio Bavalique (actually Bevilacqua)were shot down in a combat with 112 "Sharks" Sqn. whereby Sgt. MacAuley claimed one shoot down /the pilot reportedly bailing out) and Sgt. Neil credited a probable victory . The dogfight seems to have taken place in the afternoon .
No allies losses were mentioned as a result of the dogfight .

From what above and from what I found in this site that presents extensively the operations of 112 Sqn. in North Africa :

http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn/

I understand that :
- On that day 112 Sqn. lost Sgt. Rae Kittyhawk in a take off accident the pilot dying in the consequent explosion the pilot is now buried at the El Alamein war cemetary. (Why was a pilot died in a take off accident on his airfield buried there ? From Debt of Honour)
- Apart from Sgt. Rae on that day the squadron lost Sgt. Greaves D.F. who was taken prisoner see POW link

Hence even if I'm still waiting for the Losses / Casualties / Victories the WDAF claimed for that day that should be in my hands within this week (mighty difficult task finding these info on the net...how comes???)that might clear a little this mistery , seems now clear that Sgt. MacAuley shoot down Cap. Ceccotti and eventually was one of the pilots who strafed him while he was descending by parachute.

On that day Cap. Ceccotti was the only loss of Regia Aeronautica , Ezio Bevalique is clearly a misspell for Bevilacqua who eventually was awarded with M.O.V.M. (Military Gold Medal for Valour)on October 21 1942 as clearly stated here :

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/ITALY/Italy-AF.html

For our german speaking friends lets check what other forums are saying about the same event

http://www.afrika-korps.de/forum/viewto ... b18d6#8762

I'll come back later with even more precise details.
Anyway I've read around the net that the attitude of italian ground troops towards RAF,RAAF,SAAF POW changed drammatically after October the 2nd and as soon as what happened became widely known .

The harsh feelings of Regia's pilots against 112 Sqn. pilots is well documented eventually ending in the Gonosfadiga massacre over the skies of Sardinia and in the valorous act of Sgt. Ferruccio Serafini who dove into a 112 Sqn. plane after running out of ammo's on July 22nd 1943

http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/CSA/CB ... ruccio.asp

Gian

[gabriel pagliarani]

..... Apart from Sgt. Rae on that day the squadron lost Sgt. Greaves D.F. who was taken prisoner see POW link...

Prisoner hold "by foot", without any shooting. Sgt. Greaves D.F. taked off from Egypt "via foot" then he was kept prisoner "via foot" at least 300 km far from his airbase after having crossed mined fields and the trenches of 2 front lines. His own shoes were shot-downed, evidently. Consequently the losses of the "Shark" Sqdn were badly hidden by their HQ in Egypt in the attempt to avoid the consequences of a too evident war-crime.

..... The harsh feelings of Regia's pilots against 112 Sqn. pilots is well documented eventually ending in the Gonosfadiga massacre over the skies of Sardinia and in the valorous act of Sgt. Ferruccio Serafini who dove into a 112 Sqn. plane after running out of ammo's on July 22nd 1943 ...

The kamikaze attack made by Sgt. Ferruccio Serafini happened after a double victorious dogfight: he killed 3 "Sharks" before death. And July 22nd 1943 all the rest of 360a Sq. of 51° Stormo C.T. served bravely, but in a manner so rude to exceed any common rule of gallantry. Tenente Pilota Tullio Martinelli (one of the heroes of the battle for "Harpoon" convoy see http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_cenni.htm ) dared to cut the tail of a Shark with the propeller after the jamming of his own Bredas and landed without a blade of the prop and the other 2 heavily damaged. No other Allied unit was so hated as the "Shark" Sqdn. and Gonnosfanadiga's massacre was pure vengeance.

[mikeshilton]

During the 7th april 1945 Luftwaffe attack by "Schulungslehrgang Elbe" a Rammjäger unit,aginst American bomber formations a number of german pilots survived ramming bombers and bailed out.When their bodies were recovered they were found to be riddled with bullets,the American escort fighters had shot them while they were hanging in their parachutes.

[ohrdruf]

The observation by Redcoat a few months back is incorrect. Under the rules of war, air crew (not paratroopers) are "hors de combat" while parachuting and in descent from an abandoned aircraft, and it is a war crime to fire on them. As soon as they hit the ground (provided this is not neutral territory), they are again fair game for attack.

The rule is similar to that for shipwrecked naval crews who may not be fired upon in the lifeboats, which are analogous to the airman's parachute, but who become fair game once they clamber ashore (provided this is not neutral territory).

[redcoat]

The observation by Redcoat a few months back is incorrect. Under the rules of war, air crew (not paratroopers) are "hors de combat" while parachuting and in descent from an abandoned aircraft, and it is a war crime to fire on them. As soon as they hit the ground (provided this is not neutral territory), they are again fair game for attack.

I think you will find that this ruling is post WW2, while protection of shipwrecked crews dates to the 1899 convention at least

[gabriel pagliarani]

....I think you will find that this ruling is post WW2, while protection of shipwrecked crews dates to the 1899 convention at least

Rules called laws are made by men only so they could be wrong, not sufficient or produced too late. So the question is not about the "rule called law": sometimes a new rule could hide a newest crime as surely there could be someone hidden just behind laws having the criminal will to avoid the effects of the same law. By this way a soldier shooting at an unarmed defeated enemy could be considered an hero by effect of an infamous law. But such shooter, while facing the law of the Lord, the law of the human consciourness and the laws of gallant chivalry is ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE considered only a despicable coward killer . Generally this kind of men survives only for a while to the fate of the their own victims, as it happened to the infamous 112° "Shark" Squadron.

[ohrdruf]

Redcoat

OK, if I am wrong I stand corrected, but I would be surprised if there had not been some form of official international agreement before WWII. Mano Ziegler mentioned the practice of some US fighter pilots of passing so close to a parachute as to collapse the canopy.

[Topspeed]

I think Meimberg in his memoirs stated it best what comes to shooting in to the parachute when he wrote:"most disgusting offense what a pilot can do".

Julius Meimberg makes an effort to bring light to this disgusting habit of american aviators; systematically killing german airmen in parachutes.