Primary Evidence about Hitler

[paolosilv]

All reports had to go through the Reichschancellory. Bormann was Hitler's secretary, and controlled access to him. It would have been impossible for Hitler not to know about the Holocaust. The reports on the Einsatzgruppen made to Hitler is further evidence.
cheers,

Paolo

[phylo_roadking]

All reports had to go through the Reichschancellory. Bormann was Hitler's secretary, and controlled access to him. It would have been impossible for Hitler not to know about the Holocaust. The reports on the Einsatzgruppen made to Hitler is further evidence.

In reality - as it is the situation today - that's where the filter block is...at who controls what passes over the chief's desk boss Reports might be made to Hitler on any number of things - but increasingly it would have been Bormann who decided what he saw.

[pacifritz]

Hitler is professionally recorded on film indoctrinating his lackeys with the chilling quote:



'This War will end with the total destruction of the Jews!'


---at least once, possibly twice!


This is all the proof I need that Hitler was responsible for----and had full knowledge of---the Holocaust.


This quotation is totally in 'black-and-white', is crystal clear in it's forceful intent and purpose, and cannot be misinterpreted, either by pseudo-intellectuals, or actual intellectuals.


This is not a middleman coming out with this statement, it is the Leader of the Party himself.

When this was filmed, it is absolutely clear that at the very least the intention to wipe out a race had already been taken, and this is straight from the 'horses' mouth'.

[michael mills]

Pacifritz,

Can you give the date of the alleged statement by Hitler?

Are you referring to his speech of 30 January 1939?

If so, you need to read the entire context of the part of the speech that is so often quoted. That context shows that Hitler meant that the peoples of Europe would take action against the Jewish race if a world war broke out.

He also made it clear that the result of that action taken against the Jews would be the same as that already achieved in Germany (as at January 1939), which quite clearly was not physical destruction.

The full context of Hitler's words indicates that he was envisaging a mass expulsion of Jews from Europe in the case of war, along the lines of the anti-Jewish actions already underway in Germany itself, probably a series of pogroms similar to that in Germany of 9 November 1938, designed to cause the Jews to flee.

Pacifritz, I regret to have to inform you that the "actual intellectuals" have a far greater understanding of this issue than you appear to, an understanding based on more than a film-clip seen on television.

[michael mills]

If you all look back to the first post on this thread, back in January 2005, you will see that it asked this rhetorical question:

Surely there is primary evidence that Hitler knew of the death camps!

Actually, there is no evidence that Hitler had specific knowledge of death camps. And there is no reason to believe that he would have involved himself in that sort of detail. He was not a micro-manager, except in the conduct of military operations.

His modus operandi was to approve the goal of an operation, and then leave it to his subordinates to get on with the job of working out how to implement it.

Most probably he received proposals coming from below, and approved them in broad outline rather than in detail.

For example, in December 1941 he appears to have approved a proposal by Himmler that Jews in occupied Soviet territory be considered as partisans and exterminated as such. Subsequently he received reports on the progress of anti-partisan operations, which among in the figures for partisan casualties in particular regions over particular time periods included the number of Jews executed as "Bandit accomplices".

In March 1942, Goebbels was aware of the "liquidation" of Jews in the Lublin District assessed as unusable for forced labour, being carried out by Globocnik, the SSPF for that district. He was aware that 60% of those Jews were to be "liquidated".

If Goebbels back in Berlin had received information about what Globocnik was doing, then it is a fair bet that that Hitler had also received that information. The most likely course of events is that Himmler received a request from the Lublin District for authorisation to put to death 60% of the Jews in that district, and had given it, and had then briefed Hitler on the proposal.

However, it is unlikely that Hitler got involved involved in the specifics of the operation. He probably just told Himmler to take whatever action he considered appropriate under the circumstances; he had after all in October 1939 given Himmler blanket authority to take any action he deemed necessary against groups of people considered to pose a danger to the German people.

The important thing is that broad information received by Hitler about lethal actions taken against particular groups of Jews, whether "bandit accomplices" in the occupied Soviet Union, or Jews unfit for use as forced labour in occupied Poland, does not add up to an order issued by him at some unknown time for a comprehensive extermination program.

It is entirely possible that he saw proposals for the killing of Jews unfit for labour as an extension of the "euthanasia" which he had already authorised in October 1939, and as having the same rationale, namely getting rid of "useless eaters" who were a burden. His political testament, dictated just before his suicide, suggests that he regarded the killing of Jews as "humane", the same expression he had used in his authorisation of "euthanasia"; perhaps he regarded active killing as more "humane" than simply allowing "useless eaters" unusable for labour, whether mental patients or Jews, to just starve to death.

[Sid Guttridge]

I wonder if there is "primary evidence" that Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of Kurds in Halabja?

Or whether there is a smoking gun that directly links Stalin with the mass starvation of Kulaks in the early 1930s?

Did Pol Pot leave a paper trail?

Will we find Kim Jong Il's fingerprints at the scene of the mass starvations of the 1990s and 2000s?

Is there anything that directly links Bashar al-Assad with events today in Hama, or his father Hafez with worse events in the same city in 1982?

Primary evidence is not something such absolute dictators tend to leave much of behind them. Hitler seems to be consistent with the pattern.

However, we do seem to have primary evidence (see above) about Hitler's personal secretary, Martin Bormann, having prior knowledge of plans for the so-called "Holocaust". Bormann was very much Hitler's creature so, short of Hitler leaving a personal mea culpa, that is about as good as one can expect.

I wonder if anyone as close to Saddam Hussein, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or Kim Jong Il, or the Assads is available to finger them?

[pacifritz]

Michael: Hitler's statement about:

'this War will end with the total destruction of the Jews' was not 'alleged' in any way......




it exists in a widely seen film clip that most followers on here must surely be familiar with. I can't date it [though it doubtless exists on youtube] but it is spoken from the Nazi HQ with the gigantic, Art-Deco Eagle of vast scale seen clearly in the background, the scene is in long-shot, looking down on him from a balcony [?] viewpoint ,although it's still recognizably Hitler.

The most chilling part of the clip is at the end, as the Fuhrer's assembled minions cheer rapturously in approval at this statement.




All I can say about the fate of the Jews in WW2 is: if Hitler never intended 'destroying' the Jews in this period---as you are stating is perhaps the case------ then who else did ?,........ because I've never heard of any other movement predicting or prophesising the destruction of an entire race, other than the Nazis. At least, not using such an openly brazen and clear-cut context as that as prophesised by Hitler here , and certainly not recorded professionally on celuloid, as this was.

This one film clip [there may have been a second, it sounds familiar] speaks much more forcefully than stacks of academic literatue on this subject , which are in essence educated theories, this filmclip is an actual War-related document which to me at least spells out Hitler's intentions much more directly than the arguments put forth by either his sympathizers or detractors.



Causing the Jews to flee in forced exodus as you have put forth is nowhere near as 'final' or extreme as spelling out their 'total destruction', which would entail a vast state aparatus, as later actually employed by the Third Reich.

[michael mills]

Pacifritz,

You are obviously referring to Hitler's speech to the Reichstag on 30 January 1939. The eagle you refer to was mounted on the wall behind the rostrum of the Reichstag President.

I again suggest to you that you get a copy of the entire speech and read it. It is a long read, since the speech was over an hour long. The main theme of the speech was economic matters.

Hitler came to refer to the Jewish problem in the context of accusing the opponents of Germany of hyprocrisy in that they criticised Germany for its treatement of its Jewish minority but were extremely reluctant to open their doors to assist German Jews to emigrate.

Hitler also stated that there was plenty of room outside Europe for Jews to live in, if only the opponents of Germany were prepared to co-operate with her on an organised program of ewmigration and resettlement, instead of just carping and criticising. Those statements by him indicate that he was by no means committed to the physical destrcution of the Jews of Europe, but saw organised emigration as the solution to the Jewish Problem.

Pacifritz, I repeat that you need to improve your knowledge of this issue by reading books, not just watching film clips on television.

[uberjude]

As a functionalist, I won't dispute the notion that looking at speeches made in the 1930's don't really provide any evidence regarding the Final Solution's final form, nor do I dispute that it's quite likely that the form didn't originate with Hitler but with a subordinate like Heydrich or Himmler. I would say that given Hitler's unique obsession with Jews (my favorite evidence of this, as recounted in Hitler's Jewish Soldiers, is the image of Hitler, during the battle of Stalingrad, with the fate of the 6th Army hanging in the balance, spending his time examining photos of Mischlinge soldiers to decide if their nostrils looked sufficiently un-Jewish as to declare them Aryan), it's a bit absurd to imagine that he wouldn't ultimately concern himself with the details. To be sure, in most things, he wasn't a micromanager, but as Mr. Mills notes, he did concern himself with the details of the war, and ultimately, one of the objectives of that war was the extermination of Europe's Jews.

I would also note that Mr. Mills has the specifics of Goebbels diary entry a little off. In March, 1942, Goebbels was aware of the liquidation not just of the Jews of the Lublin district, but of the Jews of the entire GG, that was beginning in Lublin. Furthermore, it wasn't 60% of the Jews who weren't fit to work who were being liquidated, but 60% of all Jews (i.e., only those 40% who were deemed fit to work were not being murdered). That may, of course, have simply been poor phrasing on Mr. Mills' part, but there it is. That. of course, corresponds with the plan for extermination outlined at Wannsee. for more on the Diary entry, see:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ation.html


And, speaking of Wannsee and Hitler's awareness of the Final Solution, there is a fairly telling passage from the minutes of the Wannsee conference itself:

III.
Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance.

These actions are, however, only to be considered provisional, but practical experience is already being collected which is of the greatest importance in relation to the future final solution of the Jewish question.

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:

Italics and bold added

This, of course, doesn't prove Hitler's awareness, but it is certainly significant that, at least in the official minutes of the Wannsee Conference, the "evacuation of the Jews" (which we know unofficially meant murder, and even officially involved the survival only of those Jews fit for labor, who would then be murdered) was dependent upon the Fuhrer's approval in advance

[michael mills]

I think Uberjude is looking at the quoted passage from the Wannsee Protocol from the wrong angle.

What that passage means is that the RSHA, under Heydrich's direction, had been working on a draft plan for the evacuation of the Jews of German-controlled Europe into occupied Soviet territory, ever since Heydrich had received authorisation on 31 July 1941 to develop such a plan. (In fact, we know they had been working on a preliminary plan since March of that year, in the contexts of the preparations for Barbarossa).

However, as of the date of the Wannsee Conference, Hitler had not yet approved the plan, most probably because he had previously ruled that the solution to the Jewish problem would have to wait until after a successful conclusiuon to the war. That indicates that agencies of the German Government, such as the RSHA, were working on solutions to the "Jewish Problem" on their own initiative, without a specific order from Hitler. (However, Hitler had already, in September 1941, approved the deportation of German Jews to occupied Poland and to the Reichskommissariat Ostland).

Presumably at some point, Heydrich took the plan to Hitler and received his approval. Given Hitler's known modus operandi, he probably approved the basic aim of the plan, ie ship all Jews to the East, and ordered its commencement, but did not want to be bothered with the details, such as what would be done with the Jews on arrival at their destinations, whether they would be used for labour, how many would be used for labour etc. His sole concern would be to know that the Jews were being progressively removed from the German sphere.

[David Thompson]

Michael -- You wrote:

However, as of the date of the Wannsee Conference, Hitler had not yet approved the plan, most probably because he had previously ruled that the solution to the Jewish problem would have to wait until after a successful conclusiuon to the war. That indicates that agencies of the German Government, such as the RSHA, were working on solutions to the "Jewish Problem" on their own initiative, without a specific order from Hitler.

This claim conflicts with other evidence already mentioned here, such as (1) Himmler's "special mission from the Fuehrer," (2) Himmler's statements as well as (3) those of Heydrich, (4) Rosenberg's memorandum of his December 1941 meeting with Hitler, and (5) these accounts:

On 31 Aug 1941, Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler witnessed a mass execution of 100-150 Jews at Zhitomir, outside Minsk, Belorussia, which was later described by SS-Oberstgruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff, then Himmler's liaison officer with Adolf Hitler's headquarters:

An open grave had been dug and they had to jump into this and lie face downwards. And sometimes when one or two rows had already been shot, they had to lie on top of the people who had already been shot and then they were shot from the edge of the grave. And Himmler had never seen dead people before and in his curiosity he stood right up at the edge of this open grave -- a sort of triangular hole -- and was looking in.

While he was looking in, Himmler had the deserved bad luck that from one or other of the people who had been shot in the head he got a splash of brains on his coat, and I think it also splashed into his face, and he went very green and pale; he wasn't actually sick, but he was heaving and turned round and swayed and then I had to jump forward and hold him steady and then I led him away from the grave.

After the shooting was over, Himmler gathered the shooting squad in a semi-circle around him and, standing up in his car, so that he would be a little higher and be able to see the whole unit, he made a speech. He had seen for himself how hard the task which they had to fulfil for Germany in the occupied areas was, but however terrible it all might be, even for him as a mere spectator, and how much worse it must be for them, the people who had to carry it out, he could not see any way round it.

They must be hard and stand firm. He could not relieve them of this duty; he could not spare them. In the interests of the Reich, in this hopefully Thousand Year Reich, in its first decisive great war after the take-over of power, they must do their duty however hard it may seem. He appealed to their sense of patriotism and their readiness to make sacrifices. Well, yes -- and then he drove off. And he left this -- this police unit to sort out the future for themselves, to see if and how far they could come to terms with this -- within themselves, because for some it was a shock which lasted their whole lives. (Gilbert Holo 191)

After Himmler's experience, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Otto Bradfisch, head of Einsatzkommando 8 of Einsatzgruppe B, operating in the Minsk area, asked Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler who was taking the responsibility for the mass extermination of the Jews. Himmler told Bradfisch, "These orders . . . come from Hitler as the supreme Fuehrer of the German government and . . . they [have] the force of law." Himmler later said the same thing in a speech to Einsatzkommando 8 and some security police. One of Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler's command staff, Higher SS and Police Judge Horst Bender, also asked Himmler who was responsible for the "final solution" order. According to Bender, "Himmler categorically stated that this measure had been personally ordered by Hitler, out of political and military considerations, and it therefore stood above all jurisdiction, including SS and police jurisdiction." (Fleming xxiv; 51)

[michael mills]

The Wannsee Conference was about a plan to deport Jews from German-occupied Europe INTO occupied Soviet territory.

The words used in the minutes suggest that that plan had not yet received approval from Hitler.

That plan was quite a different issue from the mass execution of Soviet Jews, which had been approved by Hitler on the basis that Soviet Jews were partisans or partisan accomplices.

So the mass executions such as those witnessed by Himmler are quite consistent with the fact that the deportation plan being worked on by the RSHA during 1941 had not yet been approved by Hitler.

[kiseli]

The Wannsee Conference was about a plan to deport Jews from German-occupied Europe INTO occupied Soviet territory.

Not according to Eichmann;

Q: What did he say about this subject?
A: In detail I do not
Q: Not details in general, what did he say about this theme?
A: I cannot remember it in detail, Your Honor, but they spoke about methods for killing, about liquidation, about
extermination. I was busy with my records. I had to make the preparations for taking down the minutes; I could
not perk up my ears and listen to everything that was said. But it filtered through the small room and I caught
fragments of this conversation. It was a small room so from time to time I heard a word or two

http://www.ghwk.de/engl/texts/eichmanns-testimony.pdf

At the Wannsee Conference,Heydrich speaks of the extermination order in disguised language (“the evacuation of the Jews to the East”) as having been confirmed by the Fuehrer as a possible solution instead of emigration (T/186, p. 5). Also Luther, a Foreign Ministry official, states in a memorandum T/196, quoting Heydrich, that the order for “evacuation to the East” was Hitler's order.
The implementation of the “Final Solution,” in the sense of total extermination, is to a certain extent connected with the stoppage of emigration of Jews from territories under German influence. In his Statement T/37, the Eichmann says (on p. 171):
“As soon as the war against Russia began, Himmler forbade all emigration, even when opportunities existed for it.” (Eichmann's Memoirs, T/44 at pp. 93, 101.)Mr. Max Plaut, in his affidavit, T/665, also puts the date of the prohibition of emigration at the outbreak of war against Russia (p. 4 supra). In fact, the final order for the cessation of emigration seems to have been given by Himmler only in October 1941 (see T/394; T/395). All emigration of Jews was prohibited as from that date, except in special, individual cases. But it is correct that from the outbreak of war with Russia, practical emigration possibilities for Jews from German-influenced territories were limited to such an extent that during the months until October 1941 emigration proceeded only in “a tiny trickle” (see T/683). From the evidence given by Mrs. Henschel, it appears that the last transport of emigrants from Germany left for Lisbon on 15 October 1941, or one day earlier (Session 37, Vol. II, p. 668).

[kiseli]

Heydrich opened the conference with a speech, reviewing achievements in the field of
emigration. Summing up, he says:
“In the meantime, emigration was banned (by Himmler), because of the
dangers of emigration in wartime, and taking into consideration the
possibilities in the East.”
And he continues:
“Instead of emigration, evacuation of the Jews to the East now comes as
an additional possible solution, after prior appropriate approval by the
Fuehrer. But these operations are to be regarded only as passing
possibilities. The results of these practical experiences are already being
collected, since they are invaluable in view of the approaching Final
Solution of the Jewish Question” (supra, p. 5).
A statistical survey follows, in which the number of Jews throughout Europe (also
including countries not under German rule) is estimated at eleven million; and now come
the decisive sentences:
“Under suitable direction, the Jews should be brought to the East in the
course of the Final Solution, for use as labour. In large labour gangs, with
the sexes separated, the Jews capable of work will be transported to those
areas and set to road-building, in the course of which, without doubt, a
large part of them (ein Grossteil) will fall away through natural losses. The
surviving remnant, surely those with the greatest powers of resistance, will
be given special treatment, since, if freed, they would constitute the
germinal cell for the re-creation of Jewry, they being the result of natural
selection, as history has proved” (supra, pp. 7-8).
The intention behind this convoluted language is clear and simple: The Jews of Europe
were to be expelled to the East and put to hard labour; the weak would die from overwork
and the strong would be killed.
In connection with questions of implementation, Heydrich gives the following
information, inter alia:
(a) Europe will be combed from the West to the East, giving priority to the
Reich and the Protectorate.
(b) A “ghetto for the aged” will be set up in Terezin, which will also take
Jewish war invalids and those who hold medals for distinguished service.
(c) “The 'Central Authority' (Federfuehrung) for the handling of the Final
Solution of the Jewish Question will be in the hands of the Reichsfuehrer-
SS and the head of the German Police (the head of the Security Police and
the SD - viz. Heydrich himself), without regard to geographical borders”
(supra, p. 3).
(d) “In regard to the handling of the Final Solution in the territories
occupied by us and those under our influence, it has been suggested that
the officials dealing with the matter at the Foreign Ministry contact the
authorized Referent of the Security Police and the SD” (viz., the Accused)
(supra at p.9).
88. Not one of those present expressed any reservations to what Heydrich said. On the
contrary, there was a complete consensus of opinion. The contribution to the discussion
made by Buehler, representing the Generalgouvernement, is worthy of mention:
“He (Buehler) stated that the Generalgouvernement would be glad if the
Final Solution of this Question were launched in the area of the
Generalgouvernement, since transport was not a serious problem there and
labour considerations were not likely to disturb the smooth running of
such an action. Jews must be removed from the Generalgouvernement
area as quickly as possible, since it was here that the Jew represented a
blatant danger as the carrier of diseases, and he was always upsetting the
country's economy by continuous profiteering. Moreover, out of the two
and a half million Jews to be handled, most were unfit for work” (supra, p.
14).
And this is how the discussion ended:
“In conclusion, various types of possible solutions were discussed, and the
attitude taken (by representatives of the Ministry for the Eastern Occupied
Territories and of the Generalgouvernement) was that they themselves
would immediately make certain preparations to bring about the Final
Solution in the areas concerned. At the same time, the creation of unrest
amongst the population should be avoided” (supra, p. 15).
When the Accused was asked in cross-examination in this Court what was the meaning of
the words “various types of possible solutions” discussed towards the end of the
conference, he answered simply: “Various ways of killing were discussed” (Session 106,
Vol. IV, p. xxxx11).

from:
DISTRICT COURT OF JERUSALEM
Criminal Case No. 40/61
Before His Honour JUDGE MOSHE LANDAU (Presiding)
His Honour JUDGE BENJAMIN HALEVI
His Honour JUDGE YITZCHAK RAVEH
For the Prosecution: THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
The Accused: ADOLF, son of Karl Adolf, EICHMANN

[kiseli]

Irving did not tell his readers that Goebbels described Hitler as having pushed fort his “radical solution.” He simply omitted the entire passage relating to Hitler, as he did in the 1991 edition of Hitler’s War, because this statement by Goebbels discredited his claim that Hitler knew nothing about he extermination camps int he East. If Hitler was ignorant, how could he be “the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical solution”? Thus, Irving manipulated the diary entry to argue the exact opposite of what it actually showed. Irving claimed that Goebbels did not inform Hitler of the murderous activities taking place in Auschwitz and Treblinka when he met him on 29 March 1942. But it was clear from Goebbels’ diary entry for 30 March 1942, which recorded the events of the previous day, that the Propaganda
Minister did not meet Hitler on the 29 March 1942.59 Hitler’s remark (“The Jews must get out of Europe. If need be, we must resort to the most brutal methods”) was made on 19 March 1942, as recorded in Goebbels’ diary on 20 March 1942, and could not therefore be used, as Irving used it,as evidence that Goebbels “hold his tongue when he met Hitler” after writing his “frank summary” of the “ghastly secrets” of the extermination camps on 27 March. Nor did Irving publish the complete passage from Goebbels’ diary entry of 20 March. Goebbels recorded:
‘We speak in conclusion about the Jewish question. Here the Fuhrer remains, now as before, unrelenting. The Jews must get out of Europe, if necessary, with the application of the most brutal means.”
In both editions of Hitler’s War, Irving omitted Goebbels’ characterization of Hitler’s stance as unrelenting.
I found several other documents indicating Hitler’s knowledge and approval, to put it no more strongly, of the ‘Final Solution.’ For example, on 28 July 1942, Himmler wrote to the head of the SS Head Office, Gottlob Berger, and explained that “the occupied Eastern territories will be Jew-free. The Fuhrer has laid the implementation of this very difficult order on my shoulders.
At this time, between the end of July 1942 until the end of September 1942, some of the worst excesses of mass murder
of the entire‘ Final Solution’ occurred in the Polish General Government.
Apart from mass gassings, German police forces also exterminated entire villages by shooting their Jewish inhabitant. Historians later estimated that around 1.75 million women, men, and children were murdered in Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor by the time the camps were dismantled the following year.
On 22 September 1942, at the height of this unprecedented mass murder operation, Himmler had a lengthy meeting with Hitler. Here we found another ptoblem with Irving’s account of Hitler’s role in these events. Judging from Himmler’s handwritten agenda notes, one subject may have been the extermination of the Jews. Under the heading “Race and Settlement,” Himmler noted:
1. Emigration of Jews
how to be further proceeded?
2. Settlement Lublin- Circumstances
Lorrainers Gen[eral] ernement]
Germans from Bosnia Globus
Bessarabia’

The fact that Himmler discussed the emigration of the Jews, as well as Globus, his nickname for Globocnik, who was responsible for this program of mass extermination in the General Government, immediately raised in my mind the suspicion that the mass annihilation of the Jews was one of the topics of conversation between Hitler and Hilnmler on
that day.
But such suspicions seem to have been far from Irving’s thoughts.In his written submission to the court, Irving conceded that he had neglected the Himmler note in question:
It is admitted that the plaintiff did not draw attention to this minute,but it is denied that this is relevant. . . . The Defendants have failed to inform us of the minute’s ‘obvious significance’, which escapes the Plaintiff. . . . Himmler’s jotted agenda for his meetings with Hitler are crowded with names, pet or otherwise, and in the absence of collateral evidence it is imprudent in the extreme to spin fanciful theories around them.

From:
"Lying About Hitler" by R.J.Evans , pp.88-90