Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

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dwseiple
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Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by dwseiple » 02 Sep 2002 03:06

Over the years I have heard accusations that Simon Wiesenthal has played very loosely with the truth in documenting the Holocaust. In other words, some people accuse him and his organization of being more interested in tracking down and jailing Germans rather than contributing accurately to the history of the Second World War and of Nazi Germany. Is there any truth to these accusations? If Wiesenthal has been inaccurate, can anyone give us a few examples? On the other hand, if the Wiesenthal Center has been accurate in their documentation, this should be recognized. Can anyone help here?

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Hans
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Hans » 02 Sep 2002 10:04

dwseiple wrote: If Wiesenthal has been inaccurate, can anyone give us a few examples?


Well, the so called sceptics in the Forum will complain that the Wiesenthal Center website posted a photo from the ramp in Auschwitz-Birkenau and added a huge cloud of smoke to the background. That is, however, not really significant, since the unaltered, original photo is well known and often reproduced in the Holocaust literature.

On the other hand, if the Wiesenthal Center has been accurate in their documentation, this should be recognized.

I agree. And the Wiesenthal Multimedia Learning Center is an excellent source for every German speaking Holocaust researcher, with facsimiles of hundreds of orginal German documents and testimonies.

regards,

Hans

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Scott Smith
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Scott Smith » 02 Sep 2002 10:24

Hans wrote:
dwseiple wrote: If Wiesenthal has been inaccurate, can anyone give us a few examples?

Well, the so called sceptics in the Forum will complain that the Wiesenthal Center website posted a photo from the ramp in Auschwitz-Birkenau and added a huge cloud of smoke to the background. That is, however, not really significant, since the unaltered, original photo is well known and often reproduced in the Holocaust literature.

Is this unimportant? Maybe. I don't know. Does hateful fabulism promote tolerance?
:)

Image

Here's another one, published for popular consumption in Life magazine, June 11, 1945. An execution of Germans caught wearing enemy uniforms is confabulated by artist Wiesenthal into another Mauthausen atrocity...

Image Image Image

Image

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Hans
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Hans » 02 Sep 2002 10:35

Scott Smith wrote:Is this unimportant? Maybe. I don't know.


If anybody thinks this is important, he may believe that. For me it's not. What I find important are the numerous documents reproduced as facsimile on the Wiesenthal Center webpage, regarding homicidal gas vans for instance.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Scott Smith » 02 Sep 2002 11:04

Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Is this unimportant? Maybe. I don't know.

If anybody thinks this is important, he may believe that. For me it's not. What I find important are the numerous documents reproduced as facsimile on the Wiesenthal Center webpage, regarding homicidal gas vans for instance.

I think it shows his hateful mentality and that colors his judgement. Surely it affects how much authority he extrudes, or perhaps it should. I don't understand why anybody would swallow his soup without at least a grain of salt.
:)

Looks like the Gas-Van is outta gas... :oops:

Image

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Hans
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Hans » 02 Sep 2002 11:05

And, Scott, do you really know that the photo was altered with spiteful intention?

The semi-denier Charles Provan tells us:

"A minister (a convert from Judaism to Christianity) I know edited an authentic 1800's speech of a Hungarian Rabbi who converted to Christianity, removing passages and adding others, to make it easier to understand for his audience . I have no doubt that his intentions were good, but wondered what the reaction on the part of Jewish readers (his intended audience) might be if they found out the editing had been done with no mention of it on the printed piece."

If you don't know the context of the photo, one could believe that it shows a scene from the local fair. It is not obvious for the viewer without background knowledge that most people on these pictures (not on this one, however, since it shows fit Jews) were dead, killed with poison gas and blown through the crematoria chimnies, few hours later. It is likely that the smoke was simply added in order to make it easier for the viewer to understand what happened in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

But it's Wiesenthal, so it must be "hateful fabulism". No doubt, Scott. :wink:

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Scott Smith
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Scott Smith » 02 Sep 2002 11:26

Hans wrote:And, Scott, do you really know that the photo was altered with spiteful intention.

Well, it is a propaganda photo nonetheless, intended to indoctrinate. Crude, however, because crematoria do not normally emit smoke or a stench, contrary to the gazillions of Survivors who "smelled the stench of the crematorium" and lived to tell us about it.

If you don't know the context of the photo, one could believe that it shows a scene from the local fair. It is not obvious for the viewer without background knowledge that most people on the picture were dead, killed with poison gas and blown through the crematoria chimnies, few hours later.

We don't know that this is really what happened to them and neither does Wiesenthal. Clearly he wants us to make a leap of logic to get from point A to point B, according to the standard story. That takes some Faith in his honesty, IMHO.

It is likely that the smoke was simply added in order to make it easier for the viewer to understand what happened on these pictures.

Yeah, propaganda and juxtaposition. Some smoke means mass-murder. In this case smoking fenceposts!

But it's Wiesenthal, so it must be "hateful fabulism". No doubt, Scott. :wink:

I would say so. At least you are not trying to argue as Roberto did, that the smoke was just a mistake by the touch-up guy. Touching-up historical photos is problematical anyway if they are intended to serve as evidence.

Here's another example of educational confabulism--but this one is certified by the International Military Tribunal instead of Simon Wiesenthal, as Human Soap exhibit USSR-393. I wonder if Wiesenthal still believes in Human Soap.
:)

CLICK! Image

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Hans
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Hans » 02 Sep 2002 11:44

Scott Smith wrote:
We don't know that this is really what happened to them and neither does Wiesenthal.



There is plenty of evidence showing what happened to them, I posted some in the thread "Mass murder in Auschwitz", and there are also testimonies of survivers from this transport by the way.

This is was most likely happened, and there is no other reasonable interpretation of the evidence.

However, of you have a reasonable alternative explanation of what happened to 300.000 Hungarian Jews, who were not able to work, in Auschwitz-Birkenau, backed up by strong evidence of course, I would be glad to see it posted elsewhere.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Scott Smith » 02 Sep 2002 12:11

Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
We don't know that this is really what happened to them and neither does Wiesenthal.

There is plenty of evidence showing what happened to them, I posted some in the thread "Mass murder in Auschwitz", and there are also testimonies of survivers from this transport by the way.

This is was most likely happened, and there is no other reasonable interpretation of the evidence.

Even if that is what *probably* happened to them, smoking-fenceposts is not an honest facsimile of history, IMHO.

However, of you have a reasonable alternative explanation of what happened to 300.000 Hungarian Jews, who were not able to work, in Auschwitz-Birkenau, backed up by strong evidence of course, I would be glad to see it posted elsewhere.

I'm not an expert on what probably did or did-not happen to them, but I see no evidence that the women in question are Hungarian, or even Jewish for that matter.
:)

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Scott Smith
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Scott Smith » 02 Sep 2002 12:12

Deleted unintentional double post...
Last edited by Scott Smith on 02 Sep 2002 16:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Hans
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Hans » 02 Sep 2002 12:47

Scott Smith wrote:Even if that is what *probably* happened to them, smoking-fenceposts is not an honest facsimile of history, IMHO.

Of course not. Making photographic evidence showing something that it doesn't show is never honest.
However, of you have a reasonable alternative explanation of what happened to 300.000 Hungarian Jews, who were not able to work, in Auschwitz-Birkenau, backed up by strong evidence of course, I would be glad to see it posted elsewhere.

I'm not an expert on what probably did or did-not happen to them, but I see no evidence that the women in question are Hungarian, or even Jewish for that matter.

That is because you don't know or don't want to know the evidence. Of course, this doesn't prevent you of claiming that nobody knows what happened.

But the Wiesenthal thread is not the right place to elaborate this point.
:D

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Richard Miller
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Wiesenthal

Post by Richard Miller » 02 Sep 2002 13:28

Wiesenthal has proven himself to be a liar, as well as someone who is not above fabricating evidence to obtain conviction of anyone remotely associated with Nazism.
In addition to the now infamous photos mentioned above, the case of Frank Walus who was accused of being a member of the Gestapo, stands out as evidence of Wiesenthal's pathological hatred.

Ultimately, the government prosecutors were forced to drop their case ignominiously. The Chicago Weekly Reader and Chicago Lawyer published exposés of Wiesenthal's role in the frame-up of Walus.
Eventually even the Washington Post acknowledged his sordid role in the affair.

Here is a copy of a letter Walus sent to the German Government as well as other entities regarding the Order of Merit award bestowed upon Wiesenthal for his efforts in the Walus case.

April 9, 1985

TO: THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY AND ALL HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS

RE: THE AWARDING, BY THE FEDERAL RPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THAT NATION'S HIGHEST AWARD FOR CIVILIANS — THE ORDER OF MERIT — TO SIMON WIESENTHAL
FROM FRANK WALUS

The power to accuse is a power sometimes beyond understanding.
I was accused. By Simon Wiesenthal, "the great humanitarian".
What began as a dispute with Polish-speaking neighbors ended up in Federal Court. I was accused by neighbors who bore financial bitterness to me. I was accused by acquaintances who owed me money. I was on trial for my life.
Their accusations would have been dismissed in any humane society that is aware of human nature. But my accusers had a trump card. I am Polish. I speak German. I was alive during World War II and living in Europe.
On those preposterous grounds, my accusers were able to dream up a deadly charge: a charge that makes otherwise normal and decent people foret about rules sf evidence and standards of justice. I was accused of bein a "Nazi war criminal."

The evidewnce was nil. The charge was propesterous. It would have gone nowhere. It would have been laughed at. It would have faded away into the oblivion it deserved as just another chapter in the history of personality conflict and pettiness between people.
It would have happened this way, if it wasn't for the intervention of Simon Wiesantal.
Mr. Wiesenthal took the gossip against me and fabricated it into "proof" that I was of that species of human that has no rights. A "Nazi war criminal." Wiesenthal dignified the hearsay against me by writing a formal letter in 1974 to the U.S. Dept. of Justice informing that agency that I was a former agent of the Gestapo and hinting that I was a murderer.
When Torquemada used these tactics in the Inquisition they were condemned. When the Judges in Salem, Massachusetts used these tactics they were condemned. When Stalin used these tactics they were condemned. When Joseph McCarthy used these tactics, he was condemned.
When Simon Wiesenthal uses these tactics against an innocent men, to destroy my health, my life savings and my peace of miknd, he is awarded the highest honor West German has to give. Why?
Wiesenthal worked behind the scenes with the Israeli secret police to convict me on perjured evidence. He orchestrated an ad campaign in Israeli newspapers for eyewitnesses against me to come forward. This "eyewitness" selection-process was so totally rigged that when one candidate for this status came forward, he could not even pick my photograph out from among 11 others. When this individual, Meylich Rozenwald, failed to identify my picture from the others, the Isaraili cop handed Rozenwald my picture.

As a result of this insane gossip/hearsay "evidence" and the grooming of eleven perjurers from Israel, I was put on trial for 17 days. Prior to that time, I was assumed guilty by the news media and villified publicly as a "Nazi war criminal". I was attacked by Jews in the street and hospitalized. I lost my friends. I had six heart attacks. I spent around $120,000 in my own defense. I remain in debt for tens of thousands of dollars incurred to defend myself against the gossip-based accusations of Simon Wiesenthal.

By the power of Wiesenthal's well-oiled money-and-publicity machine he was able to get eleven Israelis to swear in a U.S. court of law that I was the one to beat their fathers to death and gunned down a Jewish mother and her little kids. By the protective cloak of Wiesenthal, not one of these perjurers has been convicted of any crime for their lies — lies which would have sent me to my death had the senile Zionist Judge Julius Hoffman's guilty verdict against me not been overturned by a higher court.

These Israeli liars are not having their peace of mind distured as they enjoy the sunshine in Israel. Their reputations have not been made to suffer as mine has. They all get off scot-free and well rewarded. Meanwile the U.S. prosecutors in my case continue to insist that they were correct in filing charges against me. That it was an "honest mistake". They will not even be men enough to legally state I am innocent, only that there was a "striking absence" of evidence in Wiesenthal's case against me.
But how can it be an honest mistake when the government blindly relied on Wiesenthal for its case and Wiesenthal maliciously based his accusations on street gossip? Has Wiesenthal apologized to me, has he reimbursed me for my lost health, lost life savings, lost friends, lost peace of mind for myself, my wife and children? No. The man is not obliged to do so.

He can lie all he likes. He can accuse anybody on the flimsiest evidence thanks to the witchhunting media hysteria about "Nazi criminals". He need not worry about "mistakes" orthe damage his lies do. What is the ruination of an innocent man's life compared to media prestige? Why would Simon Wiesenthal have to make amends to me? .........
Wiesenthal forged the drawing of "executed Jews" from his 1946 KZ Mauthausen book (p. 64) in a plagiarism of the June 11, 1945 issue of Life magazine. There are more lies investigative reporters have documented about this Grand Inquisitor. They are ignored by the human rights groups and governments. This means more inoocents will suffer as John Demjanjuk now suffers. The West German governfment is a disgrace and a discredit to its people, especially to those who have made th supreme sacrifice in giving up the lives for the honor and glory of their "FATHERLAND".
Frank Walus


Sources on my victimization: Chicago Reader, 23, Jan, 1981. Student Lawyer May '81. Chicago Tribune Magazine 2 Dec. 1982. Sources on Wiesenthal's racketeering; Prima Facie (Bradley Smith, tel.213/465-3736). Wiesenthal: Ohne Maske, RH Dreschsler A-1041 Wien, Austria Fach2000.


In Canada, the Toronto Sun, commenting on another "war criminal" case in which Wiesenthal was involved, and the accused finally determined to be innocent, editorialized: "It seems that material provided by professional Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal is wrong, but repeated [by the print and broadcast media] anyway."
Last edited by Richard Miller on 02 Sep 2002 13:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Scott Smith
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Scott Smith » 02 Sep 2002 13:28

Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I'm not an expert on what probably did or did-not happen to them, but I see no evidence that the women in question are Hungarian, or even Jewish for that matter.

That is because you don't know or don't want to know the evidence. Of course, this doesn't prevent you of claiming that nobody knows what happened.

Well I'm not sure that anybody knows exactly what happened in the smoking-fenceposts picture, especially Wiesenthal. :mrgreen:

But the Wiesenthal thread is not the right place to elaborate this point. :D

Agreed. So unless something really interesting hits my fancy, I'll quit this thread and let others worry about Wiesenthal.
:)

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Post by tonyh » 02 Sep 2002 14:27

Maybe those fence posts were actually small chimneys that came from a huge underground gas chamber?

maybe, just maybe.

:roll:

Look this is simple. Wiesenthal's organisation tried to pull a fast one and they got caught. Its very easy to understand.

Tony

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Roberto
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Re: Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

Post by Roberto » 02 Sep 2002 19:22

Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:
dwseiple wrote: If Wiesenthal has been inaccurate, can anyone give us a few examples?

Well, the so called sceptics in the Forum will complain that the Wiesenthal Center website posted a photo from the ramp in Auschwitz-Birkenau and added a huge cloud of smoke to the background. That is, however, not really significant, since the unaltered, original photo is well known and often reproduced in the Holocaust literature.

Is this unimportant? Maybe. I don't know. Does hateful fabulism promote tolerance?
:)

Image

Here's another one, published for popular consumption in Life magazine, June 11, 1945. An execution of Germans caught wearing enemy uniforms is confabulated by artist Wiesenthal into another Mauthausen atrocity...

Image Image Image

Image


Why, Smith, still honking around on those two?

I've lost count of how many times you made a howling fuss about them. And the first one isn't even the work of Mr. Simon Wiesenthal but of an organization called the Simon Wiesenthal Center, if I'm not mistaken.

If a messed up photograph and a tastelessly modeled drawing (for it's not as if firing squad executions had not occurred at places like Mauthausen, among things even worse, is it?) are all you can pin on them, they're still one hell of a lot better than the "Revisionist" liars you so eagerly listen to.

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