Accuracy & Truth Of Simon Wiesenthal

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HaEn
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Post by HaEn » 05 Sep 2002 15:15

Does anybody remember the children story 'the emperor's new clothes"? Well in spite of everybody from high to low "seeing" and praising them, he still was naked. Why? Nobody wanted to be branded as a person unfit for the position in life he/she was in. Finally when a child said: "but he is naked" they realized that a child has to be fit for it's position in life, and thus was speaking the truth. perhaps we need more children. :P HN

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Hans
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Post by Hans » 05 Sep 2002 15:25

Scott Smith wrote:What's wrong with it? Well, one can hardly defend against a charge of witchcraft and one cannot take legal action against the liar because we all know that witches are bad.

You are kidding, right? You don't mean this serious? :?

See this as rethoric question. And no, do not elaborate this crap!

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 05 Sep 2002 15:44

Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:What's wrong with it? Well, one can hardly defend against a charge of witchcraft and one cannot take legal action against the liar because we all know that witches are bad.

You are kidding, right? You don't mean this serious? :?

See this as rethoric question. And no, do not elaborate this crap!

Crap is exactly what it is, Hans. Weird charges against people that are almost impossible to defend against and bankrupts them even if they are successful or causes them to be deported to the Soviet Union or Israel for a "fair" trial. No, this is hardly an understatement. And Wiesenthal is above the law when it come to false accusations. If it were any other slander he could be sued. But of course there are Thoughtcrimes laws to keep things kosher, aren't there. :roll:

Time to wake-up and smell the coffee with this Nazi-hunting crap.
:)

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 05 Sep 2002 16:01

Scott Smith wrote:
Hans wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:What's wrong with it? Well, one can hardly defend against a charge of witchcraft and one cannot take legal action against the liar because we all know that witches are bad.

You are kidding, right? You don't mean this serious? :?

See this as rethoric question. And no, do not elaborate this crap!


Scott Smith wrote:Crap is exactly what it is, Hans. Weird charges against people that are almost impossible to defend against


Why, was Walus convicted? The charges against him didn't even make trial, IIRC.

Scott Smith wrote:and bankrupts them even if they are successful or causes them to be deported to the Soviet Union


Who's that supposed to have been?

And then, from what Smith has shown us of Soviet trial records it seems the trials were not necessarily all that bad.

Scott Smith wrote:or Israel for a "fair" trial.


What is supposed to have been so unfair about the trial against, say, Adolf Eichmann, Mr. Smith?

Scott Smith wrote:No, this is hardly an understatement. And Wiesenthal is above the law when it come to false accusations.


As much as anyone else, unless Smith can demonstrate that he deliberately made false accusations against anyone without being bothered on account of that.

Scott Smith wrote:If it were any other slander he could be sued.


Preferably before a British court, because in the US the burden of proof would be on the one bringing the suit.

Scott Smith wrote:But of course there are Thoughtcrimes laws to keep things kosher, aren't there. :roll:


Let's see the "thoughtcrimes law" that would exclude defense against slander, defamation or false accusation in any country that applies hate speech laws, Mr. Smith (unless we are to assume that you don't know what you're talking about, that is).

And then, I thought that every legistlative act of a sovereign nation is fine with you, Mr. Smith. Or does that only apply in the case of your beloved Nazi state and other totalitarian stinkholes?

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Post by Ogorek » 05 Sep 2002 16:36

From Michael Mills:
"the lionisation of Wiesenthal is a monumental hypocrisy, given that he is essentially a self-promoter who has achieved nothing useful. I am sure that those who lionise him are well aware of the 'hypocrisy' but continue it because it must serve their purposes to do so. I think it likely that when he finally dies, he will be quietly forgotten, just like that other 'self-promoter' Karski."

Mr. Mills -

I strongly object to your characterization of Jan Karski as a "self-promoter," and having his name in the same paragraph with the word "hypocrisy."

Jan Karski was real, a reserve soldier and then a political courier for the Polish Government in Exile, and fulfilled his duties above and beyond. You apparently know very little about this unusually brave man.

His book STORY OF A SECRET STATE caused a brief flurry when published in the US. He remained in this country, not having one to return to. He quietly became a professor at a major university lecturing and writing on foreign policy. He remained aloof and taciturn, but was actually a tormented man. Save for his close circle of personal friends, the only time I have ever heard of his showing warmth to a stranger was when the man announced that he was also a Horse Artillery veteran.

Karski's silence was broken when he participated in Lanzman's SHOAH. When the production was finally cut and edited, he objected to the manner he was portrayed, and in an unusual move, PBS stations in the US released the complete and unedited film as a "special."

I can assure you that Mr. Karski is not forgotten by many, and not as a "SHOAHBUSINESS" personality. Self-promotion and hypocrisy had nothing to do with the character of this brave, selfless and tormented man, and Mr. Mills, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Have a Nice Day!

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Post by Raymond » 05 Sep 2002 17:06

And then, I thought that every legistlative act of a sovereign nation is fine with you, Mr. Smith. Or does that only apply in the case of your beloved Nazi state and other totalitarian stinkholes?


Your permanent ranting against Smith does get a little bit boring, so it would be nice if you could diminish it.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 05 Sep 2002 17:14

Raymond wrote:
And then, I thought that every legistlative act of a sovereign nation is fine with you, Mr. Smith. Or does that only apply in the case of your beloved Nazi state and other totalitarian stinkholes?


Your permanent ranting against Smith does get a little bit boring, so it would be nice if you could diminish it.


If you don't like it, don't read it.

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Post by Marcus » 05 Sep 2002 17:27

Hans wrote:
I would agree that the lionisation of Wiesenthal is a monumental hypocrisy, given that he is essentially a self-promoter who has achieved nothing useful.

Yeah, Wiesenthal's research lead just to the prosecution of the extermination camp commandant Stangl, he found the second commandant of Sobibor Gustav Franz Wagner, he collected and preserved testimonial evidence for the future, he informed the public about former Nazis in the Austrian Goverment, his indications is said to have been led to the succesful prosecution of hundreds of criminals according to the head of the Zentralstelle zur Ermittlung von NS-Verbrechen in Ludwigsburg - but all that is nothing useful believes the esteemed Michael Mills. The search for criminals is not useful, at least when the crimes took place in 1933-1945 on German (occupied) territory and when their huntsman is a Jew. Very revealing.


I find it totally amazing that someone can find the above as "nothing useful" or even as a bad thing.

/Marcus

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Post by Raymond » 05 Sep 2002 17:31

Roberto wrote:
Raymond wrote:
And then, I thought that every legistlative act of a sovereign nation is fine with you, Mr. Smith. Or does that only apply in the case of your beloved Nazi state and other totalitarian stinkholes?


Your permanent ranting against Smith does get a little bit boring, so it would be nice if you could diminish it.


If you don't like it, don't read it.



I guess i read exactly the same posting a few days before. Please do me a favor and stop your childish ranting with Scott, combined with your permanent imputations.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 05 Sep 2002 17:52

Raymond wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Raymond wrote:
And then, I thought that every legistlative act of a sovereign nation is fine with you, Mr. Smith. Or does that only apply in the case of your beloved Nazi state and other totalitarian stinkholes?


Your permanent ranting against Smith does get a little bit boring, so it would be nice if you could diminish it.


If you don't like it, don't read it.



I guess i read exactly the same posting a few days before. Please do me a favor and stop your childish ranting with Scott, combined with your permanent imputations.


As soon as Smith stops offering food for this "childish ranting" in the form of his "Revisionist" propaganda nonsense, I'll be glad to comply.

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Post by Raymond » 05 Sep 2002 18:23

As soon as Smith stops offering food for this "childish ranting" in the form of his "Revisionist" propaganda nonsense, I'll be glad to comply.


A thing does not get more true, if some rapidly repeats it again and again.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 05 Sep 2002 18:24

Raymond wrote:
As soon as Smith stops offering food for this "childish ranting" in the form of his "Revisionist" propaganda nonsense, I'll be glad to comply.


A thing does not get more true, if some rapidly repeats it again and again.


Exactly. Explain that to Mr. Smith.

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Rob S.
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Post by Rob S. » 05 Sep 2002 18:40

Though I know nearly nothing about Simon.. :? I can say first hand that it is very impotant to seperate "the acts" with "the person" in order to make his image. Just because he has falsely accused, does not mean that all are falsely accused. The same goes the other way around.

It just seems to me here that people are arguing his works based on their particular bias. Nothing in the world says that he can't screw up and succeed at the same time, or at different times. Nobodies' past actions can dictate present or future acts; because a person can change, or make mistakes. To think otherwise is either labelling or blind faith.

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Post by Scott Smith » 05 Sep 2002 21:07

I don't know about Wiesenthal's direct involvement but Karl Linnas was tried in absentia by the Soviet Union for allegedly operating a firing-squad in Estonia. He was stripped of his U.S. citizenship and deported to Russia where he died three months later awaiting sentencing. Fedor Fedorenko was stripped of his U.S. citizenship and deported to the Soviet Union for an (undoubtedly) fair trial and was executed. There are also Frank Walus and John Demjanjuk. Basically, any European immigrant of the proper age and background is vulnerable to such accusations of witchcraft. And the burden-of-proof is effectively on the accused. You get your "fair trial" after you are deported.
8O

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Post by atkif » 05 Sep 2002 22:10

Raymond wrote:I guess i read exactly the same posting a few days before. Please do me a favor and stop your childish ranting with Scott, combined with your permanent imputations.

Roberto's contribution to the forum is one of the most important.
He brings up various historical documents,translates them .He has the really extensive knowledge about Holocaust and the issues related.
His position is always clear and ethical.
But what is your contribution to the forum ?
Calling names ? Roberto's postings are "childish rantings"?
Your preposterous posts are the real "childish rantings "
Even more so on the background of the Roberto' ones.
It would take you a l-o-o-n-g time to grow up to the Roberto level.
If ever..

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