So called "Polish concentration camps".

[jola]

David,

Was Auschwitz a Polish camp or a German camp?

[Karl]

Just how many Cuban death camps are/were there?
How many Polish death camps were/are there?

Given, things could be clearer on this side but through the dense fog, even we can distinguish semantics, splitting hairs and over sensitivity.

Generally it is taken for granted that when concentration camps/death camps and what have you, are mentioned, it's synonymous with Nazi Germany (even though we all know the originators (and even this can be debated depending upon how far back you want to go) of the term and concepts…So, we all know it is Nazi Germany we are referring to and that when other countries come into question it has to do with geography and nothing more…that being said [and here goes the olive branch communicating we do understand the sensitivities etc etc etc] – do we really need to add details like ‘German administered inside Poland/Germany/etc etc? Where does that end and where does that stop? And that from a passing observer only….and please just trying to understand where this is meant to lead or where it came from and what you expect - ?

Karl

[wojtop79]

Regarding "Polish death camps" i do not know what you mean... I am not aware of any concentration camp run by Poles during the war. Maybe there were some - if yes i would be insterested to find out about it as a couriosity. There were hundreds of small and large camps run by Germans on Polish territory.

Splitting hairs... You know, Poles were victims of German policy pretty much as much as Jews with millions killed, arrested, sent to forced labour. Why we are suddenly to become complices? Don't you think there should be a bold line between the victim and the killer? You know who was administering the camps but does the 16 years old US teenager reading some newspaper knows it? If he reads "Polish death camp" he have valid grounds to assume "ah, so it was the Poles who were Holocaust executioners". Is this kind of spreading ignorance something that should be accepted? How much it takes to clarify it afterwards?

[David Thompson]

jola -- You asked:

David,

Was Auschwitz a Polish camp or a German camp?

For myself, I've always referred to it as a "Nazi" concentration camp. Until this thread started several years ago, I didn't think much one way or the other about the expression "Polish concentration camp," since it seemed to me that it was common knowledge the camps were run by Nazis.

Once this thread got started, however, I thought the expression was a very unfortunate and imprecise usage. Many of our readers have used the expression without being necessarily malignantly anti-Polish, or recognizing its offensive ambiguity. Hopefully this thread will make folks more aware of the problem, and of Polish sensitivity to it. Just as hopefully, our Polish readers will recognize that very few English-speaking persons intend any insult by using the imprecise idiomatic phrase.

[Artur Szulc]

I do not know if the Poles are over sensitive or sensitive or anything else. The usage of the term "Polish camps" or "Polish deathcamps" is just plain and simply wrong. Why should not the Poles react on that?
(And when they do react, they get thrown in the face that they are "over sensitive".)

Nothing written so far in this thread explains why Guantanomo Naval Base and the internment camp there is not referred to as a Cuban camp.

/Chili

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Chili,

In geographical terms, it is a Cuban camp. It is sited on Cuba. In terms of political control, it is a US camp.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Artur Szulc]

Hi there Sid,

In geographical terms, it is a Cuban camp. It is sited on Cuba. In terms of political control, it is a US camp.

Is this how the camp is referred to in media? First geography and then political controll?

No, it is referred to as a US camp

It is odd that people just can´t acknowledge the fact that there is no logical explanation to why there has been references (in media) to "Polish camps or Polish deathcamps".

To me it is all about ignorance, disrespect and arrogance.

Greetings,

Chili

[David Thompson]

chili -- You wrote:

Nothing written so far in this thread explains why Guantanomo Naval Base and the internment camp there is not referred to as a Cuban camp.

It's probably to avoid confusion with other concentration camps in Cuba run by Cuban authorities, such as political prisons on the Isle of Pines and elsewhere. 20-30 years ago, those used to be called Cuban concentration camps, though you don't hear much about them any more.

You can see the resulting confusion in expressions like "Latvian concentration camps," where, without reading further, you can't tell whether the title refers to Soviet camps, Nazi camps, camps operated by the Latvian government, or all concentration camps which existed within the present boundaries of Latvia.

[Karl]

Regarding "Polish death camps" i do not know what you mean... I am not aware of any concentration camp run by Poles during the war.

Well that was my point.

Splitting hairs... You know, Poles were victims of German policy pretty much as much as Jews with millions killed,

Yes Poles had nothing to do with persecution or bias towards Jews okay and way off topic

Why we are suddenly to become complices?

No I have nothing against Poles.

Don't you think there should be a bold line between the victim and the killer?

Yes I hear you.

You know who was administering the camps but does the 16 years old US teenager reading some newspaper knows it?

Yes I guess this was your point and we acknowledge that and you're right. Maybe we should keep the completely ignorant in mind when posting.

Karl

[Artur Szulc]

David wrote,

It's probably to avoid confusion with other concentration camps in Cuba run by Cuban authorities, such as political prisons on the Isle of Pines and elsewhere. 20-30 years ago, those used to be called Cuban concentration camps, though you don't hear much about them any more.

David, do you belive this your self? That media wants do avoid confusion with other concentration camps on Cuba, that in fact are not commonly spoken about anymore...

You can see the resulting confusion in expressions like "Latvian concentration camps," where, without reading further, you can't tell whether the title refers to Soviet camps, Nazi camps, camps operated by the Latvian government, or all concentration camps which existed within the present boundaries of Latvia.

I guess you can give us some examples of this since you are bringing this up?

[David Thompson]

chili -- You wrote:

I guess you can give us some examples of this since you are bringing this up?

Sure. It's easy if you use google:

Latvian concentration camps
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q= ... afe=images
Latvian concentration camp
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q= ... afe=images

It's not just Poland and Latvia, either. You can find similar imprecisions in the English idiom if you google "Iraqi concentration camp", "Yugoslavian concentration camp," "Czech concentration camp" etc.

You also wrote:

David, do you belive this your self? That media wants do avoid confusion with other concentration camps on Cuba, that in fact are not commonly spoken about anymore...

I wouldn't say the term was uncommon:

Cuban concentration camps
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q= ... afe=images
Cuban concentration camp
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&as_q= ... afe=images

To get back to the specific topic, our readers may find this article of interest:

Polish death camp controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_death_camps

[Artur Szulc]

David thank you for the google search. Belive it or not, even I googled it but got a slight different result.

But do you think that all your examples are comparable with the usage of "Polish deathcamps"?

Take the transit camp Drancy in France as a example. It is some times referred to as a french camp. And that is not wrong since it was established by the french Vichy-government and guarded by french police. This changed in the summer of 1943 when the Germans took more controll over the camp.

David, would you say that a reference to the camp Drancy as a french camp is only about geography? Beacuse we must establish some criterias when it is entitled to refer to geography or political controll. As for now, I am confused.

It's not just Poland and Latvia, either. You can find similar imprecisions in the English idiom if you google "Iraqi concentration camp", "Yugoslavian concentration camp," "Czech concentration camp" etc.

I do not understand what you mean.
Do you have any specific Iraqi, Yugoslavian or Czech camp in mind? Of course one can find references to Yugoslavian camps but in what context?

[David Thompson]

chili -- You asked:

David, would you say that a reference to the camp Drancy as a french camp is only about geography?

With Drancy, there's no ambiguity as there is in the other examples. Drancy was run by the French and it was located in France.

The English idiom problem, and the resulting confusion, comes when one country is running a camp in another country, and the camp is referred to by its geographic location rather than by referring to the county which administers the camp. Since I've already said that this idiomatic method of description is unnecessary vague and often confusing, and writers should be more careful, I don't think that there's much more to add.

[jola]

This is not an idiomatic expression. It is a deliberate twisting of facts, and we can only speculate on its purpose. Notice that there were no "Polish camps' in the 50s, 60s, 70s. The progression went something like this: German, Nazi German, Polish German, and Polish. Under communist control and even after its fall, the Polish goverment didn't react and only Polish circles in the US, Canada, Britain protested. Finally, the Polish government has reacted.

As you well know, most people get understanding of history not from books written by historians, but from Hollywood movies, poorly written and biased articles, mainly media, so after you repeat a lie thousand times it becomes the "truth." Case in point: Lanzman's movie Shoah is watched, studied, and taken as gospel truth. It is a farce, but the stink lingers.

From Amazon review:

" Sigmund Gorson, a Polish Jew, has written an expose of the numerous historical inaccuracies in the film Shoah. Gorson's article can be found in the library of Central Connecticut State University in New Britain, CT. Among other things, Gorson points out that: 1) Two million Polish Christians were also murdered by the German Nazis during the Holocaust, 2) The Warsaw Ghetto uprising had far more extensive supply of arms by the Polish underground than the token one-gun shown in the movie, 3) The scene where uniformed Polish soldiers shot Jewish women and children is a vicious lie, 4) Overall, more Christians than Jews perished in the hands of the German and Austrian Nazis, 5) True instances of Polish collaboration with the Germans against the Jews were very rare, and were punished by death by the Polish underground, etc. So for those who think that Shoah presents gospel truth, I would advise them to read Gorson. "

[Artur Szulc]

Excellent last post, Jola!

/Chili