So called "Polish concentration camps".

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Locked
David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#61

Post by David Thompson » 04 Jan 2009, 17:24

Readers who want to discuss Mr. Lanzmann's film Shoah can post to this open thread:

Claude Lanzmann's documentary "Shoah"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6470

Interested readers can also see an earlier (now locked) discussion at:

SHOAH
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=238

Now let's get back on topic.

jola -- You wrote:
This is not an idiomatic expression. It is a deliberate twisting of facts, and we can only speculate on its purpose.
If you have anything to back up this notion, I'm sure our readers would be happy to see the proof.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#62

Post by Artur Szulc » 04 Jan 2009, 22:16

David wrote,
The English idiom problem, and the resulting confusion, comes when one country is running a camp in another country, and the camp is referred to by its geographic location rather than by referring to the county which administers the camp.


Can you provide any proof to back up what I have emphasized in your qoute?

And please, do not give me explanations from media or excusses after the fact as proof...

Chili


David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#63

Post by David Thompson » 05 Jan 2009, 00:00

chili -- You wrote:
The English idiom problem, and the resulting confusion, comes when one country is running a camp in another country, and the camp is referred to by its geographic location rather than by referring to the county which administers the camp.
Can you provide any proof to back up what I have emphasized in your qoute?

And please, do not give me explanations from media or excusses after the fact as proof...
The focus of this section of the forum is the holocaust and 20th century war crimes, not linguistics. My explanation is as clear as the English language permits. You can find the proof in almost all English grammar texts, in the examples which I have already given, and the examples which have been discussed in this thread. If, after consulting readily available sources, you still have problems understanding this issue of regular English usage (which I doubt, since you seem to be able to express yourself clearly in English), a tutor may be helpful.
The research sections of the forum are meant for persons who are fairly well-informed on the topics being discussed, and our discussions are not directed at the lowest common denominator of readership. Rural customs of discourse, such as feigned ignorance, pettifogging, playing at peek-a-boo, or "stonewalling" denials of facts well-known to most informed persons, are strongly disfavored here.

The object of the research sections of the forum is to exchange information, not to engage in dim wrangling as a form of diversion. Our readers are intelligent people, who have already taken the time to inform themselves on the topic under discussion and don't have a lot of time to waste playing games.
H&WC section rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#64

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Jan 2009, 17:05

Hi Chili,

You are not being sensible about this. You are inflating a linguistic peculiarity into unjustified anti-Polish paranoia.

Search the internet for "German concentration/extermination/death camps", "Jewish concentration/extermination/death camps" and "Polish concentration/extermination/death camps" and you will find that they frequently refer to exactly the same camps - built by Germans for mostly Jewish victims on Polish soil. The examples are so numerous that I would do no more than refer you to a Google search.

There may be cases where somebody is deliberately trying to obscure responsibilities, and you would be right to correct them, but in the main they are simply using the adjective "Polish" as a geographical identifier.

I doubt anybody on this forum has any doubt that Auschwitz extermination camp was not run by Poles. Please move onto more substantive issues.

Cheers,

Sid.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#65

Post by Artur Szulc » 05 Jan 2009, 17:27

hi Sid,

Can You please answer Jolas question if there were any "Polish camps" in the 50´s, 60´s, 70`s or even 80´s, perhaps the 90´s?
Please move onto more substantive issues.
Well, Sid, I had no idea that you were appointed to be a Judge here at AHF?

Greetings.
Chili
Last edited by Artur Szulc on 05 Jan 2009, 17:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#66

Post by Marcus » 05 Jan 2009, 17:31

As David has already pointed out, this is not the place for discussions on linguistics so please move onto issues that are on topic.

/Marcus

JamesL
Member
Posts: 1649
Joined: 28 Oct 2004, 01:03
Location: NJ USA

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#67

Post by JamesL » 05 Jan 2009, 17:45

A review of The New York Times archives reveals articles dealing with Polish concentration camps. The earliest found is from 1937. Snips from the articles are below.

JEWS FACE CRISIS IN EASTERN EUROPE: Anti-Semitism Sweeping Five Countries: WAVE AT PEAK IN POLAND: Concentration Camps for Them – Feb. 3, 1937
The article ends with an ominous sentence.
Altogether, say the Jews bitterly, if a Polish Hitler should arise there would be little work left for him to do.

NAZIS FACE UNREST AMONG CONQUERED - The horrors of the Polish concentration camps have greatly exceeded any told of Dachau and Oranienburg - December 8, 1940

WIFE OF MIKOLAJCZYK HOSTAGE OF GERMANS; Imminent Execution in Polish Concentration Camp Feared – November 23, 1943

REICHSBANK 'FENCE' FOR GERMAN LOOT; SHE HAS MADE HER LAST DIVE - Packets of bank notes stamped "Lublin" and "Auschwitz "- two of the most notorious of Polish concentration camps and murder factories. - October 29, 1945.

EICHMANN TRIAL OUSTS SPECTATOR - The chief defense counsel, Dr. Robert Servatiu of West Germany, let their stories of Polish concentration camps pass. ...May 2, 1961

ANNE FRANK’S DIARY LIVES AGAIN - As a schoolboy in a folk dance group, he had toured centers set up by the Swedish Red Cross for Polish concentration camp victims right after the war. ...February 12, 1967

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#68

Post by Artur Szulc » 05 Jan 2009, 18:20

Thank You, JamesL!

I am aware of the NYT, I personally have a account for that newspapers, so I have myself also seen those articles.

But,

The reference to a Polish concentration camp in 1937 is probaly the Bereza Kartuska internement facility. Economical criminals, ukrainian nationalists and polish right-wing partymembers were interned at that camp. So, this reference can not be used as proof that the usage of Polish camps did exist earlier.

1940, 1943 and 1945 People in Europe and US knew that all the concentration camps in occupied Poland were German. So in those cases the references to Polish is all about geography. But I am just guessing here.

So, we are left with 1961, during the Eichmann trial.

And how about the context of these exampes provided by JamesL?

As far as I am concerned, the creation of Polish camps/deathcamps is a more recent phenomena.

Cheers,

Chili

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#69

Post by phylo_roadking » 05 Jan 2009, 20:41

So let me get this straight, Chili - you're saying there have never been any "Polish Camps" - labour/concentration/interment camps?

wojtop79
Member
Posts: 68
Joined: 16 May 2008, 00:43
Location: Warszawa, Poland

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#70

Post by wojtop79 » 05 Jan 2009, 21:30

phylo_roadking, if you make the effort to read previous posts by chili you will see that he writes about Bereza Kartuska internment camp in the 30s (few dozens of victims - Poles and Ukrainians). It's also no secret that there existed labour and internment camps in post-war Poland set up by soviet controlled regime that caused death of several thousands of people, mostly German civilians and former Polish underground fighters.

The point is that it is not related to Nazi-German death camps during II WW that are described as "Polish camps" now.

Do you see any reason why expression "Polish camps" should be used when talking about Nazi camps in Poland apart from geography?

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#71

Post by Artur Szulc » 05 Jan 2009, 21:39

phylo...
So let me get this straight, Chili - you're saying there have never been any "Polish Camps" - labour/concentration/interment camps?
Of course, there has been Polish camps. How did you get the impression that I mean the opposite? (Is it my poor english? No seriously)

I have mentioned Bereza Kartuska, established in 1934 after the assasination of the Polish minister of interior affairs, Bronislaw Pirecki, in the summer earlier that year. There had also been several internment camps for Russian POWs 1920-1922.

The Polish communist authorities established several internment camps during 1945 for Germans before their expulsion and for Ukrainians during the Wisla action in 1947. The camp in Zgoda, operating from february 1945 to october 1945, was run by Salomon Morel, a Polish Jew who the Polish government have tried to get extradicted from Israel and punished for his crimes in the camp against German and Polish prisoners. Israel has refused.

But, this is not how the term Polish camps have been used. What we are discussing is the wrong usage of the term "Polish death camp" instead of Nazi German camp. Between 1939-1945 there were no "Polish camps" in German-occupied Poland.

Chili

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#72

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Jan 2009, 13:32

Hi Chili,

My reply of yesterday seems to have disappeared into the ether. To repeat:

Context is everything. If there were "Polish camps" on Polish soil in "the 50´s, 60´s, 70`s or even 80´s, perhaps the 90´s" then they could not have been run by the Germans, who were not present at the time. Any that existed would presumably have been established by the USSR or the Polish Government of the time.

Similarly, "Polish camps" on Polish soil in the interwar period would necessarily refer to camps established and run by the then Polish Government, as JamesL's first example shows.

By contrast, any "Polish camps" on Polish soil referred to in the period 1939-44 must necessarily have been established and run by the Germans, who were in control at the time.

Context is key.

Are there any WWII-related examples you can give where there is clear intent to blame the Poles for the German camp system on Polish soil in WWII? If so, please bring them forward.

Cheers,

Sid.

jola
Member
Posts: 260
Joined: 15 Nov 2008, 14:02
Location: Warsaw

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#73

Post by jola » 06 Jan 2009, 21:24

"jola -- You wrote:
This is not an idiomatic expression. It is a deliberate twisting of facts, and we can only speculate on its purpose.
If you have anything to back up this notion, I'm sure our readers would be happy to see the proof."
No real smoking gun here, but this article can give some insight. The background is this:

"On 1 April 2006, a Polish Culture Ministry spokesman said that the government requested that UNESCO change the name from "Auschwitz Concentration Camp" to "Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" to emphasize that the camp was run by German Nazis and not by Poles.[60] On 12 July 2006, UNESCO deferred a decision on Poland's request, pending further consultation.[61] On 28 June 2007 the United Nations World Heritage Committee officially announced that the new name is Auschwitz Birkenau. German Nazi Concentration and Extermination Camp (1940-1945).[62][63]" - wiki

Now, there shouldn't be any problem with this change. It reflects the truth, and who would object to that. And yet...




International ignorance about Auschwitz

The Polish Outlook

European News Review
April 10, 2006

Knowing that there is a widespread misconception about the origin of and operation of the Nazi German Auschwitz Birkenau death camps, the Polish government is taking steps to change the name of the camps to emphasize that the camps were Nazi German facilities. This proposal to change the name has met with resistance from some quarters. At the same time it has stirred a sudden debate in Poland that has raised the ire of both the Jewish people who were prisoners at the camp, Polish veterans groups and the families of Polish people who were also prisoners at the camps.

In response to the Polish government's moves to change the name the World Jewish Congress said "That they want to change history by changing the name". This posting on the World Jewish Congress website has created a stir and only reinforced the opinions of those who support the change in name.

The posting on the World Jewish Congress website fosters the opinion that Although the camp had been built and run by Nazi Germany, everybody in the area had known about its existence and workers were recruited from the Polish population in the neighboring village. The government in Warsaw wants the history of Auschwitz, which is listed as a UNESCO world heritage site, to be separated from Polish history and make it clear that Poland had no involvement in the death camp.

But members of the board of the Auschwitz Birkenau death camp museum, Jewish and former prisoners of the death camps, take issue with the statements of the World Jewish Congress. They firmly state that the camps were not operated by Polish people recruited from the local population but were in fact built by Polish prisoners rounded up off the streets of Poland, made prisoners, and forced to work at the camps.

Jewish leaders in Poland have opined that the statement on the World Jewish Congress website is probably the opinion of one individual. Reporters from the public television station TVP1 in Poland, however, were not able to get any response from the World Jewish Congress on this matter. Some Polish commentators claim that this is a deliberate disinformation campaign by the World Jewish Congress.

Wladyslaw Bartoszewski says he took issue with the opinions that the camp was run by people recruited from local community. He is a former prisoner of Auschwitz and categorically stated that it was Polish prisoners who were forced to work at the camp and that local people did not work at the camps.
About Wladyslaw Bartoszewski - Member of the Polish resistance Armia Krajowa (codename Ludwik) during World War II, took part in the Warsaw Uprising, member of Zegota. In 1940-1941 prisoner of Auschwitz Concentration Camp. Imprisoned by the communist regime twice in 1946-1948 and 1949-1954, falsely accused of spying, rehabilitated in 1955. As journalist worked for Roman Catholic weekly Tygodnik Powszechny, headed Polish PEN-Club (1972-1982), taught modern history at Catholic University of Lublin, cooperated with Radio Free Europe. Imprisoned during the 1981 - 1983 martial law in Poland. Served as ambassador of Republic of Poland in Austria (1990-1995), minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland in 1995 and 2000. From 1997 until 2001, Bartoszewski was a senator in Senat, the upper house of the Polish parliament. Since June 2001, he has been the chairman of an organization committed to preserving the memory of past victims of wars and persecution, the Rada Ochrony Pamieci Walk i Meczenstwa [1]. He is also the chairman of the International Auschwitz Council [2].

Public television coverage seemed to emphasize that there is a lack of knowledge of the true nature of the camp. TVP1 went to the point of interviewing an Auschwitz tour guide who said that many times that she is told that the camps were Polish camps. Even though the visitors are at the camps and have full information in front of them they keep the opinion that the camps were not Nazi German the Polish.

The statement by the World Jewish Congress is not helpful in its own right but it has galvanized opinion in many circles in Poland to the point that a lot more pressure will be now brought to bear to change the name and a proactive campaign will probably begin to prevent the rewriting of history by those who choose to hang the responsibility for the Nazi German death camps on the Polish people.

http://www.polish-jewish-heritage.org/e ... hwitz.html

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#74

Post by Artur Szulc » 07 Jan 2009, 01:05

One quote I find well put:

To simply pass off the lack of information about the true nature of the Auschwitz camps as easily explained as a geographic designation demonstrates an intellectual laziness that one would hope would not be too widespread among the population at large.

From: http://www.masterpage.com.pl/outlook/20 ... ation.html

Read the whole article! Its interesting.

Also read this: http://www.masterpage.com.pl/outlook/20 ... ename.html


/Chili

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: So called "Polish concentration camps".

#75

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Jan 2009, 12:35

Hi Chili,

Nobody I know of refers to the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camps by their Polish names and I have never seen them referred to in English-language print by anything other than their German names. Have you?

The simplest way to make sure that their creation remains attributed to Nazi Germany is to keep using their German names, as happens everywhere else that I know of.

I repeat, "Are there any WWII-related examples you can give where there is clear intent to blame the Poles for the German camp system on Polish soil in WWII? If so, please bring them forward."

Cheers,

Sid.

Locked

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”