Danish question

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Dan
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Danish question

#1

Post by Dan » 12 Feb 2005, 20:15

I was just treated to a conversation between an elderly Danish lady and her Jewish lawyer. The lawyer had high praise for the lady, since, in his words, the Danes are famous warriors and they saved the Jews of Denmark during the war.

This implies something less virtuous inherent in other peoples.

I first remembered threads on the this forum discussing how the Nazis turned a blind eye to the Jews escaping, as a sort of peace offering by Himmler.

Then I got to thinking, what if the populations of Holland and Denmark were reversed? Would the Danes have acted like the Dutch, and basically give up their Jews, even with the disadvantage of location?

Was it really the actions of the Danes that saved the biggest part of the Jewish population in Denmark, or would they have acted like the Dutch? Do any of you have any thoughts?

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Re: Danish question

#2

Post by kstdk » 12 Feb 2005, 23:54

Hello Dan.

What is your point ???
Dan wrote:Then I got to thinking, what if the populations of Holland and Denmark were reversed? Would the Danes have acted like the Dutch, and basically give up their Jews, even with the disadvantage of location?
Was it really the actions of the Danes that saved the biggest part of the Jewish population in Denmark, or would they have acted like the Dutch? Do any of you have any thoughts?
And - no, I have not any thoughts on that topic !!!

It was a curageous act of a FEW people in the resistance, and the advantage of having had the information beforehand. The info on the Germans being about to arrest all the jews in Denmark came out and to the knowledge of a few people in high positions and they arranged the very dangerous action - and it succeded - period !!!!

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Kurt
kstdk.
DENMARK


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#3

Post by Dan » 12 Feb 2005, 23:59

And - no, I have not any thoughts on that topic !!!


That is disapointing, but thanks.

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#4

Post by David Thompson » 13 Feb 2005, 18:26

Dan -- You asked:
I first remembered threads on the this forum discussing how the Nazis turned a blind eye to the Jews escaping, as a sort of peace offering by Himmler.

Then I got to thinking, what if the populations of Holland and Denmark were reversed? Would the Danes have acted like the Dutch, and basically give up their Jews, even with the disadvantage of location?

Was it really the actions of the Danes that saved the biggest part of the Jewish population in Denmark, or would they have acted like the Dutch? Do any of you have any thoughts?
I think that the different fates of the Jews in Denmark and the Netherlands didn't have much to do with national virtues or temperment. Here are some observations:

(1) Logistics -- From the point of view of planning and executing a rescue, there is a vast difference in scale between Denmark and the Netherlands. There were about 6,500 Danish Jews, while the Korherr Report reckoned the number of Jews in the Netherlands at 135,000 in 1937. The logistics of a general rescue of all Jews in the Netherlands would have been daunting, to say the least.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=397

(2) Opportunity -- As you observed, there was a geographical opportunity or possibility of placing the Danish Jews in nearby Sweden, whereas the Dutch had no such haven available.

(3) Knowledge -- The Nazi authorities began "evacuating" Dutch Jews to Auschwitz in Jul 1942, at a time when their ultimate fate was not suspected. The scheduled German roundup in Denmark took place over a year later -- in Oct 1943.

(4) Assistance -- In Denmark, the Higher SS and Police Leader, Dr. Werner Best, did not want to follow his orders to "evacuate" the Jews. He is believed to have notified the Danish resistance, through the use of middle-men, of the planned evacuation in sufficient time to allow the resistance to develop a rescue plan. In the Netherlands, the Higher SS and Police Leader was Hans-Albin Rauter, who did not have the same qualms as Dr. Best about "evacuating" Jews.

(5) Willingness -- Notwithstanding these difficulties, Dutch citizens tried to save their country's Jews, and hid many of them from the Nazi roundups. I don't have the number of Jews saved by Dutch citizens at hand, but the impression I've gotten from my readings on the subject is that the Dutch saved at least as many Jews as were rescued in Denmark.

Here's a chronology of events of the Danish rescue:

28 August 1943

General der Infanterie Hermann von Hanneken, the German military commander in Denmark, declared martial law because of an increase in anti-Nazi acts committed by the Danish resistance movement. Von Hanneken's action followed the rejection by the Danish government of an ultimatum from SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, the Reich Commissioner of Denmark, that the Danish government declare martial law. (Mollo II, 50; Holo Atlas 167)

Early September 1943

SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, the Reich Plenipotentiary-General in Denmark, learned that the SS planned to deport that country's 6,500 Jews for "resettlement" in the east. Dr. Best immediately sent a telegram to the German Foreign Office protesting against the measure, saying: "The [Danish] King and Parliament would cease to take part in the government of the country. In addition we cannot discount the possibility of a general strike." (Hoehne 451)

16 September 1943

SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, Reich Plenipotentiary-General for Denmark, warned the German Foreign Office again on the possible consequences of a Nazi deportation of Danish Jews, planned for October 1, 1943. According to Dr. Best's communication, "From the political point of view the evacuation of Jews will undoubtedly lead to a serious increase in the state of tension in Denmark. There may be riots and possibly a general strike." The Nazi Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, referred the question to Adolf Hitler, and von Ribbentrop and Dr. Best were told, "The Fuehrer doubts whether the operation will have the results anticipated." (Hoehne 451)

27 September 1943

Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, shipping expert for SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, Reich Commissioner for German-occupied Denmark, met with Danish resistance leaders in Copenhagen and warned them that the Sipo and SS were preparing to round up that country's Jews on October 1, 1942. Duckwitz had been informed of the planned action by Best, who had instructed Duckwitz to warn the Jews. Best also instructed his Sipo (Sicherheitspolizei - Security Police) commander that the police involved in the round-up were not to enter Jewish houses, but merely ring the doorbell or knock on the door, to see if anyone was there. (Hoehne 452)

27-30 September 1943

Danish sea captains and fishermen smuggled 5,919 Jews, 1,301 part-Jews and 686 Christians married to Jews out of Nazi-occupied Denmark to neutral Sweden. The Germans, who had planned to seize all Danish Jews and transport them to Theresienstadt concentration camp on October 1, could only find 477 Jews in the whole of Denmark. (Holo Atlas 167)

28 September 1943

By order of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, the Reich Commissioner of Denmark, and General der Infanterie Hermann von Hanneken, the German military commander, the armed forces of Denmark were disbanded. (Mollo II, 50)

1-2 October 1943

In Denmark, German police began rounding up Jews for deportation. (Holo Ency 1777)

5 October 1943

SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, Reich Plenipotentiary-General for Denmark, responded to criticism that by his actions, he had allowed nearly all of the Danish Jews to escape arrest and deportation to the death camps in Nazi-occupied Poland. Dr. Best replied "The Sicherheitspolizei commander and I had foreseen that only very few Jews would be caught. Since the real object of action in Denmark was to free the country of Jews rather than have a good man-hunt, it must be recorded that the operation achieved its object." (Hoehne 453)
Last edited by David Thompson on 13 Feb 2005, 18:45, edited 3 times in total.

Dan
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#5

Post by Dan » 13 Feb 2005, 18:34

Thanks! What ever became of Best?

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#6

Post by Snafu » 13 Feb 2005, 18:41

Danish sea captains and fishermen smuggled 5,919 Jews, 1,301 part-Jews and 686 Christians married to Jews out of Nazi-occupied Denmark to neutral Sweden. The Germans, who had planned to seize all Danish Jews and transport them to Theresienstadt concentration camp on October 1, could only find 477 Jews in the whole of Denmark. (Holo Atlas 167)
Very good summing up. It should perhaps be noted that according to Höhne it was actually Dr Best who also got the few seized Jews deported to Theresienstadt instead of somewhere else, but perhaps one cannot be sure. Most of these are reported to have been elderly people and nearly all survived the war.

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#7

Post by David Thompson » 13 Feb 2005, 18:48

Thanks -- I cleaned up my previous post to try and make it more responsive. As for Dr. Best:

Best, Dr. jur. Karl Rudolf Werner (10.7.1903-23.6.1989) [SS-Obergruppenführer] – b. Darmstadt; father KIA in WWI 1914; imprisoned twice by French authorities for nationalist political activities in the Ruhr 1923-1924; NSDAP: 341338; SS: 23377; appointed Judge (Gerichtsassessor) in the Justice Department of Hessen 1929; resigned 1931 when "Boxheim documents" signed by Best and in his possession revealed a Nazi blueprint for a counter-revolution in the event of a communist revolution, including plans for the execution of political opponents -- a major embarrassment for Hitler; Leipzig High Court dropped proceedings against him Oct 1931 for "lack of evidence"; Police President of Hessia (Polizeipräsident von Hessen) 1933; replaced at the insistence of Hessen-Nassau Gauleiter Jakob Sprenger; commander of German Security Service (Sicherheitsdienst – SD) Regions "South" and "Southwest" (Führer SD-Oberabschnitt Süd & Südwest); Senior State Counsellor and Section Leader for Administration and Law in the German Secret State Police Department (Oberregierungsrat und Abteilungsleiter für Verwaltung und Recht im geheimen Staatspolizeiamt) at Berlin / Deputy to Heydrich 1 Jan 1935; service as Interior Ministry official, then as Ministerialdirigent in the German Security Police main office of the Reich Ministry of the Interior (Ministerialdirigent im Hauptamt Sicherheitspolizei, Reichsministerium des Innern) 1936-1940; member, Prussian testing commission for higher administrative officials (Mitglied der Preussische Prüfungskommission für höhere Verwaltungsbeamte) 23 Nov 1938; chief, Reich Security Main Office Department I Personnel/Administrative Law (Reichssicherheitshauptamt – RSHA Amt I) 27 Sept 1939-12 Jun 1940; deputy to the chief of military administration (Kriegsverwaltungschef) for the military commander of northern France and Belgium, in charge of the second of two administrative staff (Verwaltungsstab) sections responsible for civilian matters; agriculture, transportation, justice, police, etc. in Paris 1 Aug 1940-1942; Reich plenipotentiary in Denmark (Reichsbevollmächtigter in Dänemark) Nov 1942-8 May 1945 {author, "Die Deutsche Polizei" (1941); helped sabotage the Nazi plan to deport the 7,000 Jews of Denmark (only 477 were rounded up and sent to the camps (NYT 28 Sept 1993:3:1); arrested 21 Jun 1945 by British security forces and flown to Great Britain (NYT 22 Jun 1945:4:5); put on trial for war crimes at Copenhagen 16 Jun 1948 (LT 17 Jun 1948:3d); convicted and sentenced to death by a Danish court at Copenhagen 20 Sept 1948 (NYT 21 Sept 1948:14:4; LT 21 Sept 1948:3d; Who's Who pps. 16-18) or 1949 (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 84); reduced to life imprisonment (Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 84), or 12 years imprisonment on 17 Mar 1950 by the Danish Supreme Court (NYT 18 Mar 1950:4:6) or on 20 Jul 1949 (ABR-SS); or 5 years imprisonment (Who's Who pps. 16-18; Leaders and Personalities of the Third Reich vol. 2, p. 129); released from Danish custody 29 Aug 1951 (LT 30 Aug 1951:3b; ABR-SS); fined 70,000 marks by a Berlin denazification court for SS activities 1958 (ABR-SS; Leaders and Personalities of the Third Reich vol. 2, p. 129); sentenced to a term of prison in 1958 and released 1972 due to ill health (SS: Roll of Infamy pps. 15-16) or arrested Mar 1969; indicted by West German court Feb 1972 for Aktion AB murders in Poland; proceedings suspended Aug 1972 because of defendant's ill health; charges dismissed 1982; died 23 Jun 1989 in Mülheim/Ruhr (Axis Biographical Research, SS und Deutschen Polizei [SS and German Police], http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/SS-PO ... lizei.html ; Who's Who pps. 16-18; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 84; Leaders and Personalities of the Third Reich vol. 2, pp. 128-129; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}

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Re:

#8

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 12 Oct 2020, 20:20

David Thompson wrote:
13 Feb 2005, 18:26
Early September 1943

SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Werner Best, the Reich Plenipotentiary-General in Denmark, learned that the SS planned to deport that country's 6,500 Jews for "resettlement" in the east. Dr. Best immediately sent a telegram to the German Foreign Office protesting against the measure, saying: "The [Danish] King and Parliament would cease to take part in the government of the country. In addition we cannot discount the possibility of a general strike." (Hoehne 451)
Please, David, could you give the reference for Hoehne ?

Thanks.

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Re: Danish question

#9

Post by David Thompson » 12 Oct 2020, 21:49

DavidFrankenberg -- The citation on that fifteen year-old post is to Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Penguin Books, 1971), p. 451.

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Re: Danish question

#10

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 14 Oct 2020, 01:23

Thank you.

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Re: Danish question

#11

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Nov 2020, 01:05

David Thompson wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 21:49
DavidFrankenberg -- The citation on that fifteen year-old post is to Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Penguin Books, 1971), p. 451.
The author is citing a lot "Werner Best, Die deutsche Politik in Dänemark". I am looking for this book, but i cant find this book anywhere... Any idea about that ? Nothing in wiki about that, I searched the libraries and nothing at all too... I wonder what is this book written by Werner Best ? when where was it published etc ?

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Re: Danish question

#12

Post by David Thompson » 27 Nov 2020, 06:17

DavidFrankenberg -- The language in your post makes it difficult to understand you when you write (my bold italics):
I am looking for this book, but i cant find this book anywhere...
which book is your point or object of reference -- my citation to Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Penguin Books, 1971), p. 451 or your mention of Werner Best, Die deutsche Politik in Dänemark? Also, to what does "that" refer when you write (my bold italics again):
Any idea about that ? Nothing in wiki about that, I searched the libraries and nothing at all too...
As for the book by Werner Best, I have not seen and therefore have not read it; if you'd like to find out more about the reference, I suggest an internet search, or an inquiry at your nearest public library. You may be able to get a copy to read on loan from the librarians (assuming you have interlibrary loans where you live).

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Re: Danish question

#13

Post by Andy H » 27 Nov 2020, 23:07

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 01:05
David Thompson wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 21:49
DavidFrankenberg -- The citation on that fifteen year-old post is to Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Penguin Books, 1971), p. 451.
The author is citing a lot "Werner Best, Die deutsche Politik in Dänemark". I am looking for this book, but i cant find this book anywhere... Any idea about that ? Nothing in wiki about that, I searched the libraries and nothing at all too... I wonder what is this book written by Werner Best ? when where was it published etc ?
Hi

Not the exact title but maybe a good book to pursue
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Book ... ortby%3D17

Regards

Andy H

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Re: Danish question

#14

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Nov 2020, 02:27

David Thompson wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 06:17
DavidFrankenberg -- The language in your post makes it difficult to understand you when you write (my bold italics):
I am looking for this book, but i cant find this book anywhere...
which book is your point or object of reference -- my citation to Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Penguin Books, 1971), p. 451 or your mention of Werner Best, Die deutsche Politik in Dänemark? Also, to what does "that" refer when you write (my bold italics again):
Any idea about that ? Nothing in wiki about that, I searched the libraries and nothing at all too...
As for the book by Werner Best, I have not seen and therefore have not read it; if you'd like to find out more about the reference, I suggest an internet search, or an inquiry at your nearest public library. You may be able to get a copy to read on loan from the librarians (assuming you have interlibrary loans where you live).
Yes you are right about this/that. I was talking about Best's book. Everywhere I looked, I didn't find. On the contrary, Hohne's book is quite easy to find.

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Re: Danish question

#15

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Nov 2020, 02:28

Andy H wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 23:07
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 01:05
David Thompson wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 21:49
DavidFrankenberg -- The citation on that fifteen year-old post is to Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Penguin Books, 1971), p. 451.
The author is citing a lot "Werner Best, Die deutsche Politik in Dänemark". I am looking for this book, but i cant find this book anywhere... Any idea about that ? Nothing in wiki about that, I searched the libraries and nothing at all too... I wonder what is this book written by Werner Best ? when where was it published etc ?
Hi

Not the exact title but maybe a good book to pursue
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Book ... ortby%3D17

Regards

Andy H
Hello Andy,
Indeed I already have that book, unfortunately it does not seem to be the same.

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