"Death Dealer of Kavnas(Kovno)"

[Dan]

Xanthro .
Do you think that the smiling person on the above photograph can be treated as a human being ?
"The attitude these killers take'' was not caused by the actions of the victims. It resulted from their nationalities (Jews) or their views (Commies).
The actions like these (mass killings of the innocents) exclude the perpetrators from the human race. This is my belief.

Odd that you reserve to yourself the right to determine who is and who isn't to be treated as a human, and yet you argue absolute on other threads.

Rarely do mass murders explain their actions based upon the victims nationality, but do so based on what it is claimed those nationalities have done or will do.

Our murderous subject above didn't view his victims as Communists, but as people who have abused and mistreated his people. Just as you are trying to view others.

It's a dangerous slope to try and stand on, when you think you can determine who is and who isn't a human.

Xanthro

Nice catch

[Roberto]

I personally have stopped beatings in Africa, often with the use of force, but in the case of paedophiles, I would stop you from stopping the beating.

For a pedophile I wouldn't move a finger myself.

How do you know that the pedophile is guilty? Mobs are not very good and determining such truths.

The hypothetical case, my dear Smith, involves certainty derived from a final verdict in a fair contradictory trial or my own observation.

But those beaten to death by the "Death Dealer" had never harmed anyone.

And how do you know that?

If that's supposed to be funny, Smith's sense of humor sucks.

The poor fellow may actually have meant it in earnest, however. The victims were Jews, after all.

[atkif]

Odd that you reserve to yourself the right to determine who is and who isn't to be treated as a human, and yet you argue absolute on other threads.

O.K.I am ready to learn from you. What is your suggestion -how such persons (those who are guilty of mass murder of innocents) should be treated ?
Psychological counselling perhaps ? Give me some idea please..

It's a dangerous slope to try and stand on, when you think you can determine who is and who isn't a human.

Yes it is my firm conviction -persons who don't have basic human quality -- humanity can not be really called humans.
This is not to say that I am in the position to decide what to do with this scum.I am not assuming a role of a prosecutor .So I don't represent any danger of "unfair trial" to these persons.

[Xanthro]

Xanthro wrote:

Odd that you reserve to yourself the right to determine who is and who isn't to be treated as a human, and yet you argue absolute on other threads.

O.K.I am ready to learn from you. What is your suggestion -how such persons (those who are guilty of mass murder of innocents) should be treated ?
Psychological counselling perhaps ? Give me some idea please..

They should be tried in a fair trial where they are allowed a defense and the ability to cross examine witnesses and the evidence presented against them. If found guilty they should be executed or imprisoned for their remaining life. Thus, they are treated like any other criminal.

What shouldn't happen is people decide the guilt of these people and apply a punishment, because that is what the criminal did.

Xanthro

[atkif]

What shouldn't happen is people decide the guilt of these people and apply a punishment, because that is what the criminal did

As I said I am not a prosecutor.Neither am I an investigator.I don't blame any concrete person.
What I am sayng is that such persons who really committed such crimes
are not entirely humans to me.This is my opinion which I believe I am entitled to have.

[Xanthro]

What shouldn't happen is people decide the guilt of these people and apply a punishment, because that is what the criminal did

As I said I am not a prosecutor.Neither am I an investigator.I don't blame any concrete person.
What I am sayng is that such persons who really committed such crimes
are not entirely humans to me.This is my opinion which I believe I am entitled to have.

I'm not trying to change your opinion, just pointing out that it's the same opinion as shared by those murderers in question. Just as you feel they aren't entirely human, they felt their victims weren't entirely human either.

Xanthro

[Scott Smith]

I personally have stopped beatings in Africa, often with the use of force, but in the case of paedophiles, I would stop you from stopping the beating.

For a pedophile I wouldn't move a finger myself.

How do you know that the pedophile is guilty? Mobs are not very good and determining such truths.

The hypothetical case, my dear Smith, involves certainty derived from a final verdict in a fair contradictory trial or my own observation.

Then why the mob violence, my dear Roberto? After all, the legitimacy of justice revolves around the ability of the State to satisfactorily provide a monopoly of force and law.

But those beaten to death by the "Death Dealer" had never harmed anyone.

And how do you know that?

If that's supposed to be funny, Smith's sense of humor sucks.

The poor fellow may actually have meant it in earnest, however. The victims were Jews, after all.

Not that this would excuse mob violence, of course, but assuming that the Victims (note the use of the capital letter) were in fact all Jews, how do you know that some of these Jews were not in fact Bolshevists or collaborators with the Soviets and their brutal Baltic occupation?

[Roberto]

The hypothetical case, my dear Smith, involves certainty derived from a final verdict in a fair contradictory trial or my own observation.

Then why the mob violence, my dear Roberto?

When a convicted child molester is taken to jail after trial, the mob is sometimes waiting outside the courtroom to lynch him. It has happened here in Portugal.

After all, the legitimacy of justice revolves around the ability of the State to satisfactorily provide a monopoly of force and law.

That's why cops protect the fellow from the mob in such cases. Boy, I'd hate to be one of them.

Not that this would excuse mob violence, of course, but assuming that the victims (note the use of the capital letter) were in fact all Jews, how do you know that some of these Jews were not in fact Bolshevists or collaborators with the Soviets and their brutal Baltic occupation?

I'd say the question should be asked the other way round: How do you know they were?

The burden of proof for the victims' culpability (as an extenuating circumstance) is on you, counselor.

[Scott Smith]

Then why the mob violence, my dear Roberto?

When a convicted child molester is taken to jail after trial, the mob is sometimes waiting outside the courtroom to lynch him. It has happened here in Portugal.

Maybe the Portuguese need to get out a little more; life must be pretty dull without such medieval soap operas. Burn, Witch, Burn!

Not that this would excuse mob violence, of course, but assuming that the Victims (note the use of the capital letter) were in fact all Jews, how do you know that some of these Jews were not in fact Bolshevists or collaborators with the Soviets and their brutal Baltic occupation?

I'd say the question should be asked the other way round: How do you know they were?

I never said anything one way or another. And I really don't care.

The burden of proof for the victims' culpability (as an extenuating circumstance) is on you, counselor.

No, the implied premise in your argument was that this was nothing but Genocide or mindless Hate--with no extenuating circumstances, or any circumstances, beyond that the victims were Jews (which isn't even demonstrated). I have made no claims about it whatsoever, nor am I defending such massacres as this photo purports to be.

[Marcus]

Let's get back on topic.

/Marcus

[Roberto]

When a convicted child molester is taken to jail after trial, the mob is sometimes waiting outside the courtroom to lynch him. It has happened here in Portugal.

Maybe the Portuguese need to get out a little more; life must be pretty dull without such medieval soap operas. Burn, Witch, Burn!

I know (i.a. from your persistent efforts to portray them as "witches" hunted by "medieval inquisition") that you sympathize with mass murderers, Smith.

Do you now also sympathize with child molesters?

Or are you just trying to insult a country you don't know a damn thing about because I happen to live there?

Not that this would excuse mob violence, of course, but assuming that the Victims (note the use of the capital letter) were in fact all Jews, how do you know that some of these Jews were not in fact Bolshevists or collaborators with the Soviets and their brutal Baltic occupation?

I'd say the question should be asked the other way round: How do you know they were?

I never said anything one way or another. And I really don't care.

That's it, doggy. Withdraw with your tail between your legs when you've messed up.

The burden of proof for the victims' culpability (as an extenuating circumstance) is on you, counselor.

No, the implied premise in your argument was that this was nothing but Genocide or mindless Hate--with no extenuating circumstances, or any circumstances, beyond that the victims were Jews (which isn't even demonstrated).

Well, Smith, unless someone can prove that the victims were hideous Bolshevik monsters, what stands for the record is that the fellow hated Jews and butchered a number of them because your beloved Nazis gave him a chance to do so. Nothing else.

I have made no claims about it whatsoever,

Didn't you?

Then what was that "how do we know they were not Bolsheviks/Soviet collaborators" stuff supposed to mean?

nor am I defending such massacres as this photo purports to be.

Why "purports", my dear boy?

Because you know of evidence that the photo was staged or forged, or just because it shows an event that doesn't fit into your ideological bubble?

[Scott Smith]

That's it, doggy. Withdraw with your tail between your legs when you've messed up.

No, I can surely continue with Is-Too/Is-Not but I don't want to annoy the moderator with off-topic replies to your silly accusations.

[Roberto]

That's it, doggy. Withdraw with your tail between your legs when you've messed up.

No, I can surely continue with Is-Too/Is-Not but I don't want to annoy the moderator with off-topic replies to your silly accusations.

If I had been saved by the moderator's gong like Smith was, I wouldn't open my mouth so wide.

But never mind.

As I also don't want to annoy the moderator, I'll leave it to our audience to decide what "silly accusations" I made that were not warranted by Smith's statements.

Have a nice evening, old pal.

[michael mills]

There are two versions of the lynching that occurred at the Lietukis garage in Kaunas, as shown in the photograph.

One is the version put out by the Soviet Government, according to which the lynch mob consisted of common criminals who had escaped or been released from jail after the Soviet authorities fled. The victims of the mob were supposedly innocent Jews.

The other version is that put out by Lithuanian nationalists. According to it, a number of members of anti-Soviet nationalist organisations had been imprisoned by the Soviet authorities. Upon receiving news of the German invasion, relatives of the imprisoned men went to the jails and released them. A number of Soviet political policemen and agents were captured and brought to the Lietukis garage. When the nationalists released from prison and their liberators found the Soviet agents being held at the garage, they took the law into their own hands and lynched them. It is quite possible that there were Jews among those killed, since there were many Jews among those who collaborated with the Soviet occupiers, but according to this version they were not innocent Jews rounded up on the streets.

The lynchings at the Lietukis garage are probably to be compared with the public lynchings of Hungarian AVO men during the uprising in October 1956. Irving, in his book "Uprising", has used the word "pogrom" to describe those lynchings, and he may well have been justified in doing so. But the salient fact is that the lynchings of the Hungarian AVO men, while considered shocking, have not generally been described in Western historiography as a crime.

[Roberto]

There are two versions of the lynching that occurred at the Lietukis garage in Kaunas, as shown in the photograph.

One is the version put out by the Soviet Government, according to which the lynch mob consisted of common criminals who had escaped or been released from jail after the Soviet authorities fled. The victims of the mob were supposedly innocent Jews.

The other version is that put out by Lithuanian nationalists. According to it, a number of members of anti-Soviet nationalist organisations had been imprisoned by the Soviet authorities. Upon receiving news of the German invasion, relatives of the imprisoned men went to the jails and released them. A number of Soviet political policemen and agents were captured and brought to the Lietukis garage. When the nationalists released from prison and their liberators found the Soviet agents being held at the garage, they took the law into their own hands and lynched them. It is quite possible that there were Jews among those killed, since there were many Jews among those who collaborated with the Soviet occupiers, but according to this version they were not innocent Jews rounded up on the streets.

The lynchings at the Lietukis garage are probably to be compared with the public lynchings of Hungarian AVO men during the uprising in October 1956. Irving, in his book "Uprising", has used the word "pogrom" to describe those lynchings, and he may well have been justified in doing so. But the salient fact is that the lynchings of the Hungarian AVO men, while considered shocking, have not generally been described in Western historiography as a crime.

Consider Michael Mills’ assessment in the light of the reference to the events at Kaunas/Kovno in the letter of the Navy Liaison Officer at Army Group North to his superior of 22.9.1941 (Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv, RM 7/1014, Bl. 39-41):

[…]Vermutlich soll die Stadt durch Artillerie, Bomben, Feuer, Hunger und Kälte vernichtet werden, ohne dass ein deutscher Soldat ihren Boden betritt.
Ich persönlich möchte bezweifeln, dass das bei der unglaublichen Zähigkeit des russischen Menschen gelingt. M.E. lassen sich nicht 4 - 5 Millionen Menschen so einfach umbringen.
Ich habe das aus eigener Anschauung in Kowno gesehen, wo die Letten
6 000 Juden erschossen haben, darunter Frauen und Kinder. Selbst ein so rohes Volk wie die Letten konnten dieses Morden schliesslich nicht mehr mit ansehen. Die ganze Aktion verlief dann im Sande. Wieviel schwieriger wird das mit einer Millionenstadt sein.[…]

My translation:

[…]The city is presumably to be destroyed by artillery, bombs, fire, hunger and cold, without a single German soldier stepping into it.
I personally doubt that this will be possible, given the incredible toughness of the Russian. In my opinion 4 to 5 million people cannot be killed off that easily.
I saw this with my own eyes in Kovno, where the Latvians shot 6 000 Jews, among them women and children. Even a people as rude as the Latvians could no longer bear the sight of this murder in the end. The whole action then ran out of steam. How much more difficult will this be with a city of millions.[…]

Emphasis is mine.

The complete original text and translation of this letter can be found in my post of Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:52 pm on the thread

The Siege of Leningrad in German Documents
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 1f5e0694cd

Note that the navy liaison officer doesn't seem to have known much about the Baltic countries: he confounded Lithuanians with Latvians.

Also consider how the Kaunas/Kovno pogrom is referred to in Operational Situation Report USSR No. 8 of 30 June 1941 by Einsatzkommando 1 b:

On June 28 Vorkommando (1) has moved into Kaunas. It has started its activity, occupying the former trade union building, the NKVD Building, as well as two other houses. During the night, exchange of heavy fire between Lithuanian insurgents, Jews, and irregulars. Very difficult to secure the prisons, which are totally overcrowded. During the last 3 days Lithuanian partisan groups have already killed several thousand Jews.

Source of quote:

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/osr08.html

Looks like the “version put out by the Soviet government” was the one closer to the facts.