"Death Dealer of Kavnas(Kovno)"

[michael mills]

It must be borne in mind that there are different interpretations of the events at the Lietukis garage.

What the photographs show is a public lynching of a group of men who had been held captive at the Lietukis garage by Lithuanian nationalists, who had had emerged from hiding when the Soviet administration began to withdraw from Lithuania on 21 June 1941, the day before the German invasion.

Surviving members of the Lithuanian nationalist organisation who witnessed the events state that the men held captive and subsequently lynched were members of the Soviet security forces and other collaborators with the Soviet regime who had gone to the Lietukis garage seeking transport to escape from Kaunas and had been captured there by Lithuanian nationalists.

Those same Lithuanian nationalist sources claim that a crowd had gathered at the garage when news spread that captured collaborators were being held there. It is claimed that the crowd consisted of persons whose relatives had been imprisoned or deported by the Soviet authorities in the weeks preceding the German invasion, and who had gone to the prisons or other administrative buildings seeking to free their family members, or otherwise just find out what had happened to them.

The Lithuanian nationalist sources claim that the crowd, infuriated by the fate of their relatives, egged on the men guarding the prisoners to lynch them. The photographs taken by German soldiers who were passing by show the subsequent events.

The above version of the events, as related by Lithuanian nationalist sources, differs markedly from that propagated by Jewish activist sources, which claim that the persons lynched were innocent Jewish men who had been rounded up at random by Lithuanian nationalists acting on German orders.

It may well be that Jews were among the victims of the lynchings, since many persons of Jewish origin had joined the Soviet security forces in Lithuania or had collaborated in other ways. Some of the German soldiers who witnessed the events later stated that the victims were Jews; presumably the only way they would have known that was that some of the people in the crowd of bystanders identified the victims as such. Such identification might have reflected reality, or it might simply have reflected a common perception among the Lithuanian populace that the collaborators with the Soviet regime were overwhelmingly Jewish, and hence if the persons being lynched were captured collaborators, they must ipso facto be Jews.

If the version of events propagated by Lithuanian nationalist sources is correct, then the lynchings at the Lietukis garage in June 1941 might be compared to the public lynchings of captured political policemen in the streets of Budapest in October 1956 by anti-Soviet Hungarian insurgents. Both sets of events were ugly examples of mob violence, but both are understandable in the context of the respective times in which they occurred.

Just as Hungarians are not pilloried for the lynchings in the streets of Budapest in October 1956, despite the fact that those events were deplorable, so in my opinion should Lithuanians not be pilloried for the lynchings in the streets of Kaunas in June 1941. Both sets of lynchings were ultimately a reaction to the experience of Soviet occupation and oppression, of Lithuania and Hungary respectively.

The important thing is not to blindly accept just one version of events propagated by a biassed source, but to balance it against alternative versions by alternative sources. Those alternative sources might of course be equally biassed, albeit in the opposite direction, but a balancing of the competing versions of events is most likely to lead to the truth.

[Ranke]

Michael,

Can you provide the sources of the Jewish "activists" and the Lithuanian "nationalists"? (Why do you use these terms?)

It is odd that you think Lithuanians should not be pilloried for lynching people, or is it only the lynching of communists that you approve of? Did the Lithuanians or others lynch Nazi collaborators?

Public lynchings in front of cheering crowds strikes me as a particularly vile and barbarous from of justice (or revenge), even in the most extreme contexts.

[michael mills]

Public lynchings in front of cheering crowds strikes me as a particularly vile and barbarous from of justice (or revenge), even in the most extreme contexts.

Yes, they are vile and barbarous. But if the cheering crowd consists of people who have suffered a lot at the hands of the victims of the lynching, then the act is perhaps less vile than a similar act committed against entirely innocent persons by perpetrators who are not themselves victims and are committing the act purely out of blood-lust.

I do not approve of the lynching of Communists, but I can understand the motivation of the lynch-mob. There were lynchings of collaborators with the German occupiers in many countries in the immediate aftermath of the German retreat, and also lynchings of fleeing ethnic Germans some of whom may have been entirely innocent of any wrongdoing; I do not approve of them either, but I can understand the motivation of the lynch-mobs.

As for an example of a highly biassed source by a Jewish activist, I draw your attention to the articles by the organisation of Lithuanian Jews in Israel linked by Grellber on 26-27 December last year, a few messages back in this thread. You will note there very extreme language, and a collective pillorying of Lithuanians.

There is also a link to a post by me giving the version of events from Lithuanian nationalist sources, linked by the moderator in his post of 27 December last year.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

There is a very well presented, two-hour, Lithuanian investigative documentary programme with English subtitles on DVD that conducts a forensic examination of the evdence in great detail.

I will give full details when I get home.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dan Oville]

I would rather believe the account presented by The Lithuanian Jews of Israel because they are the most likely to hear of the incident from first hand sources. And I would seriously doubt the interpretation put forth by Michael Mills, who in the first place have presented himself as an anti-Semite. The article by The Lithuanian Jews of Israel is duly supported by eyewitness accounts of non-Jews. I myself have a copy of the book "The Good Old Days", which is a collection of eyewtness accounts of the horrors of the Holocaust. I must confess I can't read further than page 92 because I started getting sleepless nights. I will give this book to anybody who wants it...he can keep it.

I read in another book, a story about Heinrich Himmler supervising a massacre of Jews in the Eastern Front. It was said that he turned away pale and shaking after what he expected to be a "spectacle". It was said that this is one of the reasons why he ordered the use of poison gas and the crematorium for their "final solution". For this lowest of all animals to shudder at the sight of a mass murder of unarmend innocents, how low did the Lituanians get when they egged and applaud the murderers; even carrying their young kids on their shoulders for a better view?

With my little knowledge of the Bible, I know there's a hell of a price to pay for anti-Semitism. God said to Abraham (the patriarch of the Jews), "I will bless them that bless you and to them who curse you, I will curse". Lithuania may be free from the Soviets now, but it's slavery is far from over.

[michael mills]

With my little knowledge of the Bible, I know there's a hell of a price to pay for anti-Semitism. God said to Abraham (the patriarch of the Jews), "I will bless them that bless you and to them who curse you, I will curse". Lithuania may be free from the Soviets now, but it's slavery is far from over.

Uh? This does not sound very rational.

[Simon K]

There is nothing "rational" about the holocaust and the mind set of the (mostly) anti semitic inhabitants of those miserable lands (in those times of course )
There is nothing "rational" in calling Murderers "nationalists" is there?

[Simon K]

I discuss with you concepts of rationality on the Julius Streicher thread also, which readers may wish to examine.

[Tony Meadows]

if you read the book to the TV programme 'Nazis:a warning form history' there is another photo of the death dealer at work and an eye witness testimony from a lady who didn't hang around to watch.
its interesting that people say they would have stepped in to help,the book also highlights that the mentality of people was that they had no interest in helping a people that they deemed as inferior to themselves and the lack of remorse shown is truly amazing,its very unnerving to think this was only 60-65 years ago.

[Hauptmann Kloss]

...its very unnerving to think this was only 60-65 years ago.

I`m quite uphold by the tone of this thread. 60 years ago? How dare you friend, in light of Srebrenica, Rwanda or just this year Kenya. Are those lives any cheaper?
It happens, can happen everywhere in right circumstances.

[Hauptmann Kloss]

There is nothing "rational" about the holocaust and the mind set of the (mostly) anti semitic inhabitants of those miserable lands (in those times of course )
There is nothing "rational" in calling Murderers "nationalists" is there?

English friend, is violence organized and administrated by the state any better than senseless barbarism of a mob? Just remember ugly casualties of Mau-Mau rebellion less than 10 years after holocaust.

[Simon K]

No defence please.

[Hauptmann Kloss]

No defence please.

Its not a DEFENCE, it is not denial is putting mob violence as terrible as it was into prospective.

I see you guys giving yourself group hug on expense of Lithuanians. Unfortunately your own hands are dirty by orchestration of government sanctioned genocide. Prospective my friend, prospective.

[Simon K]

No one is getting a group hug, least not from me
I condemn all tribal insanity.
Everywhere.

[Simon K]

Kloss, lets not get excited. I know of no "genocide" that I am involved in.No genocide that I am aware of from UK.
I would not live in a country which sanctioned something like genocide, or I would be doing something about it,if I did.