American ace Robert Johnson and his 23rd victory

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redcoat
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American ace Robert Johnson and his 23rd victory

Post by redcoat » 10 Jan 2005 23:58

[Split from "Allied units Implicated in War Crimes"]


Centurion wrote:Thought that I would post a few incidents that I have read about that (I think) would be considered war crimes;

1. In his book "Thunderbolt", American ace Robert Johnson describes how he obtained his 23rd victory; by shooting a German pilot who was in the act of bailing out. The German fellow had one leg outside the cockpit when the rounds from Johnson's machine guns knocked him back inside. Now, this German was no more of a threat to Johnson than a man floating down on a parachute. Johnson went on to rationalize why he had shot him-because had he not, the German would have certainly gone on to down more allied bombers since the German pilot was "as good as I had ever met. Number 23!"

.

This is not in any shape or form a war crime,
The german pilot is merely escaping from his damaged aircraft, he has not surrended or even attempted to surrender.
Therefore under the international rules of war then in existance, the US pilot is fully entitled to shoot at him.
The fact he is of no threat to the US pilot at that time is of no importance.
If you think about it, this is no different than firing at an enemy soldier who is retreating from the battlefield.

You may consider it not nice, but when has war ever been 'nice'

CvD
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Re: Allied War Crimes

Post by CvD » 14 Mar 2005 18:15

redcoat wrote:
Centurion wrote:Thought that I would post a few incidents that I have read about that (I think) would be considered war crimes;

1. In his book "Thunderbolt", American ace Robert Johnson describes how he obtained his 23rd victory; by shooting a German pilot who was in the act of bailing out. The German fellow had one leg outside the cockpit when the rounds from Johnson's machine guns knocked him back inside. Now, this German was no more of a threat to Johnson than a man floating down on a parachute. Johnson went on to rationalize why he had shot him-because had he not, the German would have certainly gone on to down more allied bombers since the German pilot was "as good as I had ever met. Number 23!"

.

This is not in any shape or form a war crime,
The german pilot is merely escaping from his damaged aircraft, he has not surrended or even attempted to surrender.
Therefore under the international rules of war then in existance, the US pilot is fully entitled to shoot at him.
The fact he is of no threat to the US pilot at that time is of no importance.
If you think about it, this is no different than firing at an enemy soldier who is retreating from the battlefield.

You may consider it not nice, but when has war ever been 'nice'


Rubbish!!

Geneva convention:
Part III. Methods and Means of Warfare Combatant and Prisoners-Of-War
Section I. Methods and Means of Warfare

Art. 42 - Occupants of aircraft

1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.

3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.

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Post by David Thompson » 14 Mar 2005 19:04

CvD -- In response to the initial post in this thread, you said:
Rubbish!!

Geneva convention:
Part III. Methods and Means of Warfare Combatant and Prisoners-Of-War
Section I. Methods and Means of Warfare

Art. 42 - Occupants of aircraft

1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.

3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.

Your quote is from Protocol I, dated 8 Jun 1977, to the Geneva Convention of 1949, neither of which had even been drafted when Johnson shot down the aircraft during WWII. Please avoid misleading and anachronistic arguments here. You can avoid this problem by providing sources for your claims, which the section rules require. See viewtopic.php?t=53962

For our readers -- Protocol 1 to the Geneva Convention of 1949 can be seen online at:
http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/protocol1.html

CvD
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Location: Sweden

Post by CvD » 14 Mar 2005 19:35

David Thompson wrote:CvD -- In response to the initial post in this thread, you said:
Rubbish!!

Geneva convention:
Part III. Methods and Means of Warfare Combatant and Prisoners-Of-War
Section I. Methods and Means of Warfare

Art. 42 - Occupants of aircraft

1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.

3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.

Your quote is from Protocol I, dated 8 Jun 1977, to the Geneva Convention of 1949, neither of which had even been drafted when Johnson shot down the aircraft during WWII. Please avoid misleading and anachronistic arguments here. You can avoid this problem by providing sources for your claims, which the section rules require. See viewtopic.php?t=53962

For our readers -- Protocol 1 to the Geneva Convention of 1949 can be seen online at:
http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/protocol1.html


Sorry I missed the link, but in an other thread:
viewtopic.php?p=661135&highlight=#661135
You dont know were to find the original texts of the Hauge convention of 1907 and the Geneva Conventions of 1929 on the net?

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 14 Mar 2005 19:36

See the reference announcement at viewtopic.php?t=26829 for links to the laws of war. We refer to these agreements frequently in the H&WC section. In the future please note the dates of the treaties, annexes and protocols, which are usually prominently displayed at the top of their text.

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Post by Topspeed » 17 Apr 2005 09:38

Johnnie Johnson was doing what he was ordered to do; kill enemies whenever sighted.

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