Belgrade 6 Apr 1941: Tactics or war crime?

[David Thompson]

tonyh wrote (in the "Stalingrad 23 Aug 1942: Tactics or Spoliation?" thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 372#661372 ):

Curioso

On the contrary, bombing Belgrade is spoliation, for the reasons explained above.

Well...Eric Mombeek would disagree with you. In his Jagdwaffe series he talks about the Luftwaffe's bombing of Belgrade.

"By the end of the first day, the main targets in Belgrade had been destroyed. In his post-war memoirs, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill described the German raids as terror attacks and claimed a greatly inflated figure of 17.000 civilians had been killed by the Luftwaffe bombs, but when Generaloberst Alexander Lohr, the former commanding officer of Luftflotte IV, came before a Titoist court in 1946, the prosecution mentioned a figure of 1,500 Yugoslavs killed. It is believed, however, that the main targets in Blegrade were purely military and as the stukas carried out pinpoint attacks and the twin engined bombers carried a relatively insignificant load, it is certain that the figure of 1,500 was an exaggeration. However the Communist government wanted to conduct its own version of the Nuremburg trials and, convisted of atrocities, Alexander Lohr was hanged on the 26th Feburary 1947"

It seems Churchill had a penchant for inflating numbers killed during Luftwaffe bombing attacks. But on can't deny the great capital to be made out of claiming that 35.000 people died in Rotterdam and 17.000 people died in Belgrade. Perhaps too Churchill was seeking to minimise the post war shock of the revalation of the numbers of dead German's due to the RAF's bombing policy, by claiming that the "German's did it too".

Tony

[tonyh]

I do wish you would stop doing that David. IMO this post belongs firmly in the Stalingrad discussion that it was originally posted in. The constant splitting of posts from threads is misleading, especially when given the title you have chosen.

By the way, I don't mean this post to be offensive to you. Its a remark.

Tony

[tonyh]

As an aside, I must point out that I don't necessarilly agree with Eric Mombeek's whole point of view. That the figure of 17.000 dead is propaganda is for sure, but the assertion that the figure of 1.500 civilian dead is an "exaggeration" is one I can't really agree with either.

In the Luftwaffe attacks on Belgrade in April, over 1,500 civilians could easilly have been killed.

I originally posted the quote to illustrate a difference of opinion to that expressed by Curioso.

Tony

[David Thompson]

tonyh -- You said, of my creating this thread:

I do wish you would stop doing that David. IMO this post belongs firmly in the Stalingrad discussion that it was originally posted in. The constant splitting of posts from threads is misleading, especially when given the title you have chosen.

By the way, I don't mean this post to be offensive to you. Its a remark.

(1) Your original post is still in the Bombing of Stalingrad thread. You can see it at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 372#661372

(2) Since I originated this thread, I felt free to pick the title.

(3) The constant changing of subjects by posters makes it all but impossible for researchers, interested readers and my own good self to find information in the H&WC section of the forum. After the sprawling "Churchill's war crimes" thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25091 I decided to do us all a favor by imposing a one-thread, one subject policy. It had gotten to the point where there were discussions of the Nazi A-bomb project in rape threads, and the cross-debates on different subjects destroyed the focus of the thread and made the discussion very difficult to follow.

Where a post treats of multiple subjects, I usually quote from it, as I did here, and leave the full original post in place in the original thread. This way, there's a chance that the information can be found using the forum search engine, without the reader having to browse through the whole of a multi-page thread to find a single fact.

(4) I didn't take your remarks personally, thanks.

[redcoat]

What was the reason given for the bombing attack on this city?
After all it had been declared an 'open city' ie undefended, so what was it that needed* to be attacked ?



* or at least the excuse given.

Thank you

[Larry D.]

The Bombing of Belgrade, 6 April 1941

Hitler personally planned and ordered "a massive strike" on Belgrade as the second most important objective of Directive No. 25: "punishment of the Belgrade government," or "Serbian treachery" as he also put it. The Yugoslav government was fully aware of the impended air attack on the city a good 4 hours before the first bombs fell through their listening posts along the frontier, which picked up and identified the assembly of Luftwaffe formations, the direction of the inbound air armada and the identity of the target. The Royal Yugoslav Air Force had 6 squadrons of Bf 109 and IK-Z interceptors airborne and over the city area as the first wave of Luftwaffe aircraft closed on the capital shortly after dawn. By the end of the day,

"Seven hundred and fourteen buildings were totally destroyed, 1888 heavily damaged and 6615 damaged to a less extent - 47% of the total building stock in the city. Only a small proportion of these were military targets of any sort. Some air raid shelters had also been hit, including one in the Church of Alexander Nevsky, where 70 people had died, and another where up to 200 were believed to have lost their lives."

The exact number of people who perished in Belgrad on 6 April as a direct result of this fully expected air attack is less than 4,000 but more than 3,500, according to postwar Yugoslav historians. The most common figure is around 3,700.

Shores, Christopher and Brian Cull with Nicola Malizia. Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, 1940-41. Carrollton (TX): Squadron Signal Publications, 1987. ISBN: 0-89747-208-X. Hb. Dj. 445p. Illus. Maps. Numerous appendices. Bibliography. Index. pp.195-208.

Comment: Christopher Shores is universally accepted as the best and most objective English language historian of the air war over Europe. His credentials are impeccable. He is a devoted and thorough researcher and has no agenda. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for some others who have written of the bombing of Belgrade, including several mentioned earlier in this thread.

The massive bombing of Belgrade was an act of vengence; nothing more, nothing less.

--Larry

[David Thompson]

Thanks, Larry D., for that informative post.

[Curioso]

As an aside, I must point out that I don't necessarilly agree with Eric Mombeek's whole point of view. That the figure of 17.000 dead is propaganda is for sure, but the assertion that the figure of 1.500 civilian dead is an "exaggeration" is one I can't really agree with either.

In the Luftwaffe attacks on Belgrade in April, over 1,500 civilians could easilly have been killed.

I originally posted the quote to illustrate a difference of opinion to that expressed by Curioso.

Tony

I'm a newbie, but it seems this is your usual line:

a) victims of German raids have been exaggerated, and
b) only "tactical" objectives were targeted.

While this is not totally relevant to the thread about Stalingrad, it is totally irrelevant here.

Belgrade was a war crime,

a) not because the number of victims, and
b) not because of the kind of targets, but

c) because it had been declared an open city, the Germans knew that, and bombed it anyway. What was the operation name, do you remember it? Right.

So it was a war crime. If the Germans had targeted a barracks and killed nobody, it would still be a war crime.

[tonyh]

tonyh -- You said, of my creating this thread:

I do wish you would stop doing that David. IMO this post belongs firmly in the Stalingrad discussion that it was originally posted in. The constant splitting of posts from threads is misleading, especially when given the title you have chosen.

By the way, I don't mean this post to be offensive to you. Its a remark.

(1) Your original post is still in the Bombing of Stalingrad thread. You can see it at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 372#661372

(2) Since I originated this thread, I felt free to pick the title.

(3) The constant changing of subjects by posters makes it all but impossible for researchers, interested readers and my own good self to find information in the H&WC section of the forum. After the sprawling "Churchill's war crimes" thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25091 I decided to do us all a favor by imposing a one-thread, one subject policy. It had gotten to the point where there were discussions of the Nazi A-bomb project in rape threads, and the cross-debates on different subjects destroyed the focus of the thread and made the discussion very difficult to follow.

Where a post treats of multiple subjects, I usually quote from it, as I did here, and leave the full original post in place in the original thread. This way, there's a chance that the information can be found using the forum search engine, without the reader having to browse through the whole of a multi-page thread to find a single fact.

(4) I didn't take your remarks personally, thanks.

I understand the reasons David, but the constant splitting of threads also causes a split of attention IMHO. In the past I have lost track of threads with important subjects. I know its a difficult thing to call.

Tony

[tonyh]

The Bombing of Belgrade, 6 April 1941

Hitler personally planned and ordered "a massive strike" on Belgrade as the second most important objective of Directive No. 25: "punishment of the Belgrade government," or "Serbian treachery" as he also put it. The Yugoslav government was fully aware of the impended air attack on the city a good 4 hours before the first bombs fell through their listening posts along the frontier, which picked up and identified the assembly of Luftwaffe formations, the direction of the inbound air armada and the identity of the target. The Royal Yugoslav Air Force had 6 squadrons of Bf 109 and IK-Z interceptors airborne and over the city area as the first wave of Luftwaffe aircraft closed on the capital shortly after dawn. By the end of the day,

"Seven hundred and fourteen buildings were totally destroyed, 1888 heavily damaged and 6615 damaged to a less extent - 47% of the total building stock in the city. Only a small proportion of these were military targets of any sort. Some air raid shelters had also been hit, including one in the Church of Alexander Nevsky, where 70 people had died, and another where up to 200 were believed to have lost their lives."

The exact number of people who perished in Belgrad on 6 April as a direct result of this fully expected air attack is less than 4,000 but more than 3,500, according to postwar Yugoslav historians. The most common figure is around 3,700.

Shores, Christopher and Brian Cull with Nicola Malizia. Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, 1940-41. Carrollton (TX): Squadron Signal Publications, 1987. ISBN: 0-89747-208-X. Hb. Dj. 445p. Illus. Maps. Numerous appendices. Bibliography. Index. pp.195-208.

Comment: Christopher Shores is universally accepted as the best and most objective English language historian of the air war over Europe. His credentials are impeccable. He is a devoted and thorough researcher and has no agenda. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for some others who have written of the bombing of Belgrade, including several mentioned earlier in this thread.

The massive bombing of Belgrade was an act of vengence; nothing more, nothing less.

--Larry

An informative post Larry. But I take issue with the

"The massive bombing of Belgrade was an act of vengence; nothing more, nothing less."

While Operation Strafgericht may have been swift and a punishing lesson to the British backed coup in Belgrade, it also served a very important purpose. It eleminated the black spot and the threat that resulted from the toppling of the legitimate Yugoslav government & the imposition of the Russian endorsed and SOE backed coup. Hitler could ill afford to have that on his doorstep, while the Wehrmacht were in Russia during the Summer. It had to be dealt with, otherwise a potential attack from British forces coming from the Balkans would have been serious.

He couldn't afford just to let that go. Especially when Hewel told Hitler on April 5th of the news that Stalin approved of the coup and was contemplating some sort of pact with the new anti-German regime. The Führer had to act fast, if Barbarossa (his reason for war in the first place) was to go ahead before the Summer was out.

Originally, Hitler would have perfered the original path witch was a pact with the Yugoslav government and not to have to bother with it in the first place. Prime Minister Tsvetkovitch was on the verge of signing this agreement when the coup took over power and he was arrested.

300 bombers attacked on the first raid. A quarter of which were Ju87's of StG 77 and StG2 (IIRC), which John Weal suggests "...were assigned specific objectives."

That the attack was savage is a given, that it was mere "spoilation" or just "revenge" is not borne out by the situation.

It could certainly be called a "war crime", however, as Belgrade was declared "open" on the 3rd April. But in saying that all the major combatants circumvented the "rules of war" when they wished.


Curioso

I'm a newbie, but it seems this is your usual line:

a) victims of German raids have been exaggerated, and
b) only "tactical" objectives were targeted.

While this is not totally relevant to the thread about Stalingrad, it is totally irrelevant here.

a) Yes, you're a newbie and you're not qualified to make such a statement regarding my "usual line".
b) You haven't read my posts carefully.

Tony

[michael mills]

The nub of the issue is that the International Military Tribunal did not define the killing of civilians during aerial bombardment of population centres as a war-crime.

The judgement did not include the bombing of civilian targets, even though that would have been an obvious charge to lay against Goering as head of the Luftwaffe.

If we are to accept the judgement of the IMT as close to divinely inspired, then neither the German bombing of Belgrade nor any other bombings of civilian targets by either side is to be considered a war-crime.

In the book "The Rape of Serbia", by Michael Lees, it is stated that the three-day bombing of Belgrade during Easter 1944 by the Balkan Air Force, an outfit consisting of British and American aircraft and crews but under the strategic direction of Tito, was worse tha the German bombing of that city in April 1941.

Lees also quotes the description given in the book "Eastern Approaches" by Fitzroy Maclean, of the bombing of the Serbian city of Leskovac by the Balkan Air Force, which Maclean himself observed. It is stated that the whole town seemed to lift into the air under the impact of the bombardment.

Lees claims that the bombings carried out by the Balkan Air Force did not serve any major military purpose, since they did not target any significant Axis forces, but were planned by Tito for the purpose of terrorising the Serbian population into withdrawing support for his political rivals, the Serb nationalists.

Given that background, the post-war Titoist trial of German Luftwaffe commanders for the bombing of Belgrade in April 1941 appears as the height of cynicism, and scarcely the sort of episode that any honest person would want to put forward as a model.

[David Thompson]

Michael -- You said:

Given that background, the post-war Titoist trial of German Luftwaffe commanders for the bombing of Belgrade in April 1941 appears as the height of cynicism, and scarcely the sort of episode that any honest person would want to put forward as a model.

You seem to be missing the point about bombing an open city. It's a war crime. Your efforts to "poison the well," by referring to the subsequent Yugoslav trial of Loehr and Feibig being "scarcely the sort of episode that any honest person would want to put forward as a model," are telling. They bespeak an almost total misconception of the meaning of the word "honest," as that term is ordinarily used by English-speaking people.

From the Annex to the Hague Convention (IV) of 1907:

Art. 25.
The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm

Belgrade was publicly proclaimed an open city several days before the German aerial bombardment on 8 Apr 1941. That means that the Yugoslav armed forces had withdrawn their troops, and renounced any intention to defend the city. If you have any evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

[Curioso]

Curioso

I'm a newbie, but it seems this is your usual line:

a) victims of German raids have been exaggerated, and
b) only "tactical" objectives were targeted.

While this is not totally relevant to the thread about Stalingrad, it is totally irrelevant here.

a) Yes, you're a newbie and you're not qualified to make such a statement regarding my "usual line".
b) You haven't read my posts carefully.

Tony

Fine, I'll qualify that it seems to have been your usual line in the several threads dealing with this kind of issues as of the last few weeks.

I'll add that I've read your post(s) carefully. What I notice, apart from the above, is that you don't acknowledge that bombing an open city is a war crime, regardless of losses and targets. I remind you this is not my "opinion". It's a fact of the laws of war then in force.

[Peter H]

'Open City' and the Hague Convention:

http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/unde ... towns.html

[Larry D.]

Michael Mills said:
Lees claims that the bombings carried out by the Balkan Air Force did not serve any major military purpose, since they did not target any significant Axis forces, but were planned by Tito for the purpose of terrorising the Serbian population into withdrawing support for his political rivals, the Serb nationalists.

That's absolutely preposterous, Mr. Mills. I know you are just quoting what author Lees said in his book, but I certainly hope you and others who read your post don't believe that clap-trap.

1) Allied signals intelligence (ULTRA) was near-perfect for the Balkans by fall 1943 because nearly all Wehrmacht Enigma and Geheimeschreiber messages had to be transmitted by radio due to the absence of landlines. The Partisans continually destroyed all telephone lines throughout the country. Hence, the MAAF target planners in Italy knew full well which towns, junctions and installations to bomb without any help from Mr. Tito, thank you very much.

2) Do you via Mr. Lees' unfortunate and misleading claims really think for one minute that AFHQ, especially the U.S. and British POLADs to AFHQ, and MAAF in Italy would let some hardcore communist guerrilla leader like Tito dictate the Serbian towns to be bombed for some unsubstantiated political purpose that would most likely result in the death of thousands of innocent Serbs? Especially towns or other targets with absolutely no military justification? Do you know the amount of public support enjoyed by Milan Nedic, the so-called leader of puppet Serbia and by Draza Mihailovic, the Vojvoda of the Serbian nationalist Chetniks, by February-March 1944? Together, less than 10%, and this fact was fully known to the Allies.

Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF) targeting policies, its TOP SECRET incoming and outgoing teletype correspondence (so-called Redline messages), it war journal, its operational record, it record of meetings including those held to discuss sensitive political plans and decisions, and much more can all be found at the U.S. Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB in Montgomery, Alabama, in Record Class 600, Decimal 622 (Mediterranean Allied Air Force). The collection is enormous, but it's computer indexed and a competent researcher (which Mr. Lees obviously is not) could extract everything needed on this subject in probably three research days (c. 24 hours). It took me several weeks because I did it before the index was computerized. Now it's a snap.

Oh, BTW, the Balkan Air Force (BAF), which was subordinate to MAAF, by February-March 1944 was a light tactical close support command that did strafing, rocketing and light, low altitude bombing of pinpoint targets such as trains, aquaducts, bridges, etc. It had no 4-engine bombers and only a few 2-engine bombers. It was mainly equipped with Spitfires and Beaufighters. All of the strategic bombing was carried out by MAAF using U.S. 15th AAF (15 bomb groups and 4 fighter groups) and RAF 205 Group (8 to 10 bomber squadrons). Mr. Lees strikes again.

Mr. Lees needs to purge his political agenda and then go back to the archives, roll up his sleeves and do some research.

--Larry