The End Of David Irving

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Panzermahn
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#31

Post by Panzermahn » 21 Mar 2005, 08:42

Kunikov wrote:Copying and pasting from the "Institute for Historian Review" proves exactly what?
Proves that Irving has been vilified like no other historian in this 20th and 21st century.

I would certainly dedicated our book to David Irving, because it is his single-handed courageous struggle against political correctness manipulation of historical facts that gave us and other young authors determination and spirit to fight against historical injustice and against political coagitation, propagandanization, Allied apologianism, deceit, obfuscation, inveiglelism by the victors of the Second World War.

"The more they repressed or concealed the truth, the more people are awaken to the Ideal and all of its Cause"

Panzermahn - 21-3-2005

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Kunikov
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#32

Post by Kunikov » 21 Mar 2005, 08:54

Panzermahn wrote:
Kunikov wrote:Copying and pasting from the "Institute for Historian Review" proves exactly what?
Proves that Irving has been vilified like no other historian in this 20th and 21st century.

I would certainly dedicated our book to David Irving, because it is his single-handed courageous struggle against political correctness manipulation of historical facts that gave us and other young authors determination and spirit to fight against historical injustice and against political coagitation, propagandanization, Allied apologianism, deceit, obfuscation, inveiglelism by the victors of the Second World War.

"The more they repressed or concealed the truth, the more people are awaken to the Ideal and all of its Cause"

Panzermahn - 21-3-2005
No, your twisted logic might make that seem like something worthwhile to spit out, but those who know better...well, they know better.


Fugazi
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#33

Post by Fugazi » 21 Mar 2005, 09:03

WalterS:
I'm not sure what the reasoning of the NZ government was in denying Irving entry, and I am certainly not in favor of denying entry to someone strictly because of their political views. However, since Irving has so closely allied himself with neo-nazi groups it is possible that the NZ government saw him as a threat to incite violence. Again, I don't know.
It's kind of ancient history on the thread now, but just for the record they banned him because his opinions caused offence to a section of the community - which is why it's such a bad precedent. If there'd been some prospect of neo-nazi violence they could point to it would have at least provided a fig leaf.

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#34

Post by Larry D. » 21 Mar 2005, 15:45

Herr Panzermahn -

Please don't take this as a personal attack, because I really don't give a hoot what your beliefs are. But I am concerned about your flagrant, in-your-face abuse of the German language because I and other find it very irritating and insulting. Why don't you get a German-English dictionary and correct that "Panzermahn" handle you use here. Everyone using the Forum who is functional in German is laughing at you behind your back, and I strongly doubt if you want them doing that. So why not change it to:

Panzermann: tanker, or
Panzermahner: tank admonisher, or
Panzermahnmal: tank memorial, or
Panzermahnruf: tank warning cry.

At least in doing so you might deflect some of the criticism that's being directed at you.

Just trying to be helpful,

--Larry

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Beppo Schmidt
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#35

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 21 Mar 2005, 15:59

I would certainly dedicated our book to David Irving, because it is his single-handed courageous struggle against political correctness manipulation of historical facts that gave us and other young authors determination and spirit to fight against historical injustice and against political coagitation, propagandanization, Allied apologianism, deceit, obfuscation, inveiglelism by the victors of the Second World War.
As I said before, defending a historical event which is supported by a massive amount of proof is being being politically correct, it is being factual and honest, which neither you nor Mr. Irving apparently care for. Nazis like you are the ones manipulating historical facts. And you of all people on this forum accusing anyone else of political agitation and propaganda is laughable.

Goldfish
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#36

Post by Goldfish » 21 Mar 2005, 16:46

I read "Trail of the Fox" when I was a kid and reading everything I could get on World War II. I thought it was refreshing that authors were showing the opposite side of the war and that not all the people on the other side were "bad guys". I also read "Iron Coffins", "Samurai", and "Rising Sun" at that time to get an idea of the "other side" of the war.

I think that it important to do this. This has been a theme lately with the anniversaries of Dresden and Tokyo (and will likely be again with the upcoming anniversaries of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Nuremburg, etc.). I think it is well and good for Germans and Japanese to admire the courage and skill of their fighting men and weep for their war dead and the damage wrought upon their countries.

However, at the same time, it is important that we, and especially people from Germany and Japan, understand that their military successes permitted their regimes to commit unspeakable horrors upon the people they conquered and that their military adventures (and the horrors they imposed) resulted in a terrible backlash that left their countries devestated and occupied. Many in both countries have learned this and have sought to promote peace and build positive relations with their former enemies.

Some, however, have refused these lessons. For various reasons, ranging from wounded national pride to an actual support of Nazi and Imperialist Japanese ideology, people continue to deny that atrocities commited by these regimes from the Rape of Nanking and Unit 731 to the Holocaust ever happened. This is worst in Japan, where continued denial of Japanese atrocities in Asia continues to alienate the Japanese people (many of whom are kept in the dark and have no idea why Chinese and Koreans are so angry at them) from the rest of Asia. Germany has done the best at facing up to what their leaders did during the war and have emerged as one of the leading states of Europe and the world.

I don't know why David Irving wound up taking the path he did. I don't think (based on his earlier stuff) that he started out as a Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier. Perhaps he just couldn't accept that the people he met with and worked with in his research could have done such things or perhaps he believed their stories of Jewish conspiracies. Regardless, he took his efforts to prove the Nazis right beyond the acceptable into falsifying documents and manipulating evidence. It might be like the case of an author that becomes too close to his subject. Another very good example being Edgar Snow, a Mao apologist who could never accept that the model farms, etc. he was being shown disguised policies that had left millions dead and China in chaos. Except for his first journalistic account of Mao's guerillas ("Red Star over China"), Snow's work has also long been discredited (except in China, of course) and most of his books are long out of print. I seem to remember Snow being banned from a few countries in his time as well.

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WalterS
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#37

Post by WalterS » 21 Mar 2005, 17:15

Panzermahn wrote:

Proves that Irving has been vilified like no other historian in this 20th and 21st century.

I would certainly dedicated our book to David Irving, because it is his single-handed courageous struggle against political correctness manipulation of historical facts that gave us and other young authors determination and spirit to fight against historical injustice and against political coagitation, propagandanization, Allied apologianism, deceit, obfuscation, inveiglelism by the victors of the Second World War.

"The more they repressed or concealed the truth, the more people are awaken to the Ideal and all of its Cause"

Panzermahn - 21-3-2005
Since when did it become "political correctness" to expect that an "historian" would deal with facts and evidence honestly and without resorting to falsification? Irving's not the victim here. Truth and historical integrity were the victims of Irving's callous disregard for both.

I do think it is appropriate that you intend to dedicate your book to Irving, since it is quite apparent that you share the same lack of respect for historical truth and integrity.

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WalterS
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#38

Post by WalterS » 21 Mar 2005, 17:18

Fugazi wrote:
It's kind of ancient history on the thread now, but just for the record they banned him because his opinions caused offence to a section of the community - which is why it's such a bad precedent.
If that's the case, and I have no reason to doubt you here, then I am in complete agreement with you that it is a bad precedent.

Panzermahn
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#39

Post by Panzermahn » 21 Mar 2005, 18:16

Larry D. wrote:Herr Panzermahn -

Please don't take this as a personal attack, because I really don't give a hoot what your beliefs are. But I am concerned about your flagrant, in-your-face abuse of the German language because I and other find it very irritating and insulting. Why don't you get a German-English dictionary and correct that "Panzermahn" handle you use here. Everyone using the Forum who is functional in German is laughing at you behind your back, and I strongly doubt if you want them doing that. So why not change it to:

Panzermann: tanker, or
Panzermahner: tank admonisher, or
Panzermahnmal: tank memorial, or
Panzermahnruf: tank warning cry.

At least in doing so you might deflect some of the criticism that's being directed at you.

Just trying to be helpful,

--Larry
Larry D,

Just shut up with your nonsensity here, okay? Panzermahn is my nickname for more almost 3 years in the Axis History Forum, and before that, the same nickname was used in the Third Reich Forum and even earlier, the Military History Forum. And nobody had ever accused me of abusing German language until you did

Every mod here knew that i do not abuse German language with my nickname here. Panzer and then Mahn which is my chinese last name and not surname just like Kurt "Panzermeyer" Meyer.

So again, if you know nothing about old-timers here, i do advised you to shut up if you don't know anything about the origins of my nickname :x :x :x :x

Sorry for the rant but i think you were too much when accusing me of flagrantly abusing German language.

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#40

Post by David Thompson » 21 Mar 2005, 19:11

Everyone -- Drop the personal remarks.

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#41

Post by tonyh » 21 Mar 2005, 19:32

Well, I guess I'm just not fair minded, but I bought Irving's Dresden book when it first came out and, although recognizing that it was a popularization, assumed that the lurid details - number of casualties, incidents of strafing of civilians, etc., which IMHO are far from "trivial" - were based on rigorous research (as Irving himself boasted) and were historically accurate.
IIRC, The only cause for concern that the defence had against Irving's 'Dresden' was that HE inflated the figure. In fact Irving gave a range of figures from a very low 19.000 to the high of 250.000 from Gobbel's propaganda. He settled on Voights "possible" 135.000 figure because he believed voight's knowldge to be sound as he was in the right place at the right time to know.

Likewise, his account of mustangs strafing civilians came from eyewitness accounts. Like, I have to say, much of our holocaust history.

Irving made an attempt to clarify the death toll, but trusted the wrong number. Authors today still insist on being deliberately vague about the death toll. Max Hastings says it could be 60.000. Taylor's recent account says that it could be an absolute low of 25.000 to 40.000.

We know now that Irving may have been wrong to accept such accounts and perhaps should have been more cynical. But in this instance, I don't believe that defence had much of a case. I don't think Judge Grey put much credence on it either. Irving simply believed the eyewitnesses he was interviewing. I will NOT assume that Irving 'lied'. Martin Gilbert, in his book "Auschwitz and the Allies" states that the death toll at Auschwitz was 4 million, even though we are constantly assured that nobody in the holocaust circles took that number seriously. Are we to therefore assume that Martin Gilbert was......"lying"?

Its interesting to note that the defence didn't come up with anything else derogatory about Irving's 'Dresden' or much else in his many other works.

I must say that the fuss over Irving is quite comic. Given the fact that the defence could only come up with a very small number of "lies" in his entire body of work, are we to assume that the rest of Irving's works are...ahem...kosher?

I have read several of Irvings books and will continue to do so, despite the nonsense of his misguided libel accusation against Lipstadt. In fact his book on Rommel is required reading IMO.

Tony

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WalterS
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#42

Post by WalterS » 21 Mar 2005, 21:53

:lol: :lol: :lol: I got a good laugh from your post, Tony. I was imagining Irving's reaction to his work being classified as "Kosher." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Marcus
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#43

Post by Marcus » 21 Mar 2005, 21:54

Panzermahn,

Drop the insulting tone.

/Marcus

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#44

Post by michael mills » 22 Mar 2005, 04:55

I would like to address myself to Mr Kaschner, with whom I think it possible to have a real debate.

First, on the issue of Dresden, I have never concerned myself about it to any great extent, since I considered it just another example, albeit a particularly violent one, of the bombing of population centres that was a common feature of the war. For that reason, I did not follow with any rigour the large part of the Irving-Lipstadt court action that dealt with that issue.

However, I note that Irving was by means the only person who believed that the civilian death toll at Dresden was well above the 35,000 or so bodies actually recovered and counted.

Here is a link to an article on the issue by the late Richard Crossman, a Labour member of the british Parliament, and a well-known philosemite and pro-Zionist, who can hardly be accused of being pro-Nazi.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/war/dresden1.html

You will note that Crossman considered that the death toll could well be as high as 120,000, although he dismissed the figure of 260,000 publicised by Goebbels as propaganda.

I would now like to address the issue of the translation by Trevor-Roper of Hitler's sentence "Es ist gut, wenn uns der Schrecken vorangeht, daß wir das Judentum ausrotten", a translation that Irving borrowed and for which he was accused of "falsification".

Mr Kaschner, I do not think the essential issue is whether "Schrecken" is translated as "fear", or "terror" or "horror" (my dictionary gives "fright; shock; terror; alarm; panic; consternation; dismay; fear; horror", so there are a few possibilities to choose from).

Rather the issue is the message that Hitler was trying to convey with those words, and whether the translation that appeared in Trevor-Roper's "Hitler's Table Talk" (and was used by Irving) dishonestly distorted that message, making it mean something that it did not mean.

Mr kaschner, I ask you what you think was the message that Hitler was trying to convey, and why you think what you think.

I ask you why you think Hitler specifically said that it was "good" that the advancing German troops were "preceded" by the fear/terror/horror that they were exterminating or going to exterminate Jewry, ie that before the German forces even arrived at a locality, the inhabitants of that locality were already filled with fear/terror/horror (or panic, or consternation, or alarm) by the stories that had reached them about massacres of Jews.

I also ask whether you think Hitler's message was dishonestly distorted by the Trevor-Roper translation, and if so why.

I would then like to discuss the issue with you.

I would also like to discuss any of the "distortions" found by Evans and his team in Irving's works, if you are inclined to do so. We have previously discussed the issue if Irving's presentation of the Hitler-Horthy talks at Klessheim in April 1943, which to my mind was the only serious criticism that could be made of Irving's historiography (and even it did not to my mind have the cosmic significance ascribed to it).

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#45

Post by David Thompson » 22 Mar 2005, 05:00

Interested readers can find the discussion on David Irving's sub-cosmic distortions of the Klessheim Conference at:

David Irving and the Klessheim Conference
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17408

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