The End Of David Irving

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Exxley
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#91

Post by Exxley » 07 Jul 2005, 00:31

I found this excerpt from the trial which casts some doubt on the conclusive nature of the decision:
Seems to me the conclusion was Judge Gray decision was doubtful according to those "incomplete" excerpts.

2shelbys
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#92

Post by 2shelbys » 07 Jul 2005, 04:52

Exxley,
You have to admit it is a little strange to find both high praise and absolute scorn in the same decision by one judge. He essentially said in one section that Mr. Irving's work was excellent while his decision said exactly the opposite. That is what I found a little perplexing. I doubt you could find something like that in any other court ruling. His decision on the matter is very clear in the end but why place such a positive analysis of Mr. Irving's work into a decision criticizing his work. It just didn't seem to make sense to me. Does it make sense to you? What could his reasoning, to put completely contradictory language into the record, possibly be?


gewehrdork
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#93

Post by gewehrdork » 07 Jul 2005, 05:10

I have to say I find it refreshing when subhumans like Mr Irving are exposed for what they are. Sure he may be a great writer ( ha ), but historian of an serious consequence...not bloody likely. Flawed in character and in work shows through the thin veil of his willful incompetence and deceit.
With the absolute clarity of Mr Irvings looney assertions so factually brought forth , why is there any argument still ?. I know some fellows I consdiered likeable , until they opened their yap in private with pro nazi bunk of disgusting proportions. Much like some brain dead fools I blew off whom were banner waving communists in private.

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WalterS
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#94

Post by WalterS » 07 Jul 2005, 05:30

2shelbys wrote:Exxley,
You have to admit it is a little strange to find both high praise and absolute scorn in the same decision by one judge. He essentially said in one section that Mr. Irving's work was excellent while his decision said exactly the opposite. That is what I found a little perplexing. I doubt you could find something like that in any other court ruling. His decision on the matter is very clear in the end but why place such a positive analysis of Mr. Irving's work into a decision criticizing his work. It just didn't seem to make sense to me. Does it make sense to you? What could his reasoning, to put completely contradictory language into the record, possibly be?
Obviously you haven't read, or fail to understand, Judge Gray's decision. As I previously quoted, Judge Gray was quite clear in saying that while Irving had a great reputation as a military historian, that reputation was not relevant because that wasn't what the trial was about. You must remember that the trial was about a lawsuit brought by Irving against Prof Lipstadt and Penguin Books UK. In that lawsuit, Irving objected to a number of things Lipstadt said about him in her book, including that he was a holocaust denier, consorted with neo-Nazi groups, and altered and doctored facts in his books to prove his ideology. That's what the trial was about. Lipstadt did not comment on Irving as a military historian, so that wasn't part of the trial. So, the fact that Judge Gray tossed Irving a compliment does not mean that the Judge thought Irving's work to be "excellent." Just the opposite is true.
Walter,
I do not know why you take this issue so personally but it is very unprofessional and down right rude to acuse someone of this when you know nothing of them. I stated right off the bat that I did not follow the trial because I did not particularly care about it. The section of trial transcript I posted was as I found it on the internet, I did not omit anything.
Well, the quote you posted sure omitted a lot, like all the salient points. One wonders where you got it.

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lisset
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#95

Post by lisset » 07 Jul 2005, 07:38

[quote]You have to admit it is a little strange to find both high praise and absolute scorn in the same decision by one judge. He essentially said in one section that Mr. Irving's work was excellent while his decision said exactly the opposite.

Judge Gray was being fair to Irving as has been pointed out the trail was not about his undoubted ability as a researcher although it did touch on him as a military historian .
It hinged on his misuse of historical evidence - which was willfully manipulated this was proved to have been something Mr. Irving was no stranger to.
Ego and "discovery" were his undoing , he never expected that the publisher would take him to the finish line.

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