Jasenovac.org

[behemoth]

Hello,

I have been reading some internet information on the topic of this camp system. Estimates of the numbers who perished vary as do the accounts of the activities of the camp personnel. A number of sources have already been posted for information on AHF. Of all of the documentation available, I would like some opinions on the best and most unbiased literature available before I make a book purchase. I realize that for some of you this is an emotionally charged topic and it should be. But I would again like to stress that I'm not looking for sensationalism but facts.

For examples - several sites on the net cite a story that children were getting caustic soda additives into their food to hasten their deaths. Also one or two sites are saying that prisoners were forced to drink water contaminated with children's corpses. These extreme examples are given but without any real solid documentary evidence or sourcing.

Literally, I am puzzled by the fact that the existence of these camp systems is not better known generally than it now is especially if the above are true and correct. I came upon this topic merely by accident myself.

Finally, if any of you know of good English language video on this, it would be appreciated.

[Jacob Peters]

Various estimates and assumptions are used about the number of victims at Jasenovac Concentration Camp. Exaggeration and inappropriate reduction of the number of victims as well as its use for the daily - political purposes were made possible by the fact that the real number of victims was never officially verified. The name lists of war victims from 1946, 1950 and 1964 were not released in full. According to the name list from 1964, with a warning ot those who prepared it that it is incomplete, 50,002 persons lost their lives in Jasenovac camp and 9,587 in Stara Gradiska. A total of 59,589 listed victims.

Demographic researches of Vladimir Žerjavić and Bogoljub Kočović showed similar results. According to Žerjavic 83,000 persons lost their lives in Jasenovac (some 45 – 52,000 Serbs, 12,000 Croats and Muslims, 13,000 Jews, and 10,000 Roma). Dr Kočović estimated that some 70,000 people lost their lives in Jasenovac. Rough estimates of these two expert researchers have not, so far, been challenged by any scientifically based arguments. Therefore they should be accepted conditionally until further individual research offers more precise results.

The opinion of someone like Žerjavić who was associated with the Croatian regime in the 1990s is not of serious reliability. Due to his implausible claim of 55 thousand killed in the so-called "Bleiburg Massacre" for which there is not any serious evidence, he clearly is pushing an agenda which seeks to demonize the Yugoslavs and Serbs while at the same time whitewashing the atrocities of the Ustaše regime. Žerjavić credibility is to be questioned as he has baselessly estimated that 160,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed in the 1990s when in fact research by the UN shows the figure was in fact at 70,000.

[Allen Milcic]

The opinion of someone like Žerjavić who was associated with the Croatian regime in the 1990s is not of serious reliability. Due to his implausible claim of 55 thousand killed in the so-called "Bleiburg Massacre" for which there is not any serious evidence, he clearly is pushing an agenda which seeks to demonize the Yugoslavs and Serbs while at the same time whitewashing the atrocities of the Ustaše regime. Žerjavić credibility is to be questioned as he has baselessly estimated that 160,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed in the 1990s when in fact research by the UN shows the figure was in fact at 70,000.

And your entirely unbsubstantiated posting is of serious reliability? Here is information on independent verification of Zerjavic's research:

Independent verification
Some international agencies and experts have accepted Croat Žerjavić's (and almost equal data achieved by Serbian statistician Bogoljub Kočović) calculations as the most reliable data on war losses in Yugoslavia during WW2:

"Details of the (Yugoslav) 1948 census were kept secret but, in negotiations with Germany, it became apparent that the real figure of the dead was about one million. An American study in 1954 calculated 1,067,000 [6]. Following Tito's death in 1980, the 1948 census results became available for comparison with those of 1931. Allowances had to be made for the birth rates of the different communities and for emigration. Research was pioneered by Professor Kočović, a Serb living in the West, whose findings were published in January 1985. He assessed the number of dead as 1,014,000. Later that year a Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts Conference heard that the figure was 1,100,000.[6] In 1989 Vladimir Zerjavic, a Croatian living in Zagreb published, with the aid of the Zagreb Jewish community, his calculation of 1,027,000. ... So a figure of about one million for all Yugoslavia is now generally accepted." [7]
Žerjavić's (and Bogoljub Kočović's) calculations of war losses in Yugoslavia during WW2 were accepted by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, together with other typically higher estimates:

"Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The estimated number of Serbs killed in Jasenovac ranges from 25,000 to 700,000. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac." [8]
Professor Vladeta Vučković, Serbian author of the official 1946 Yugoslav document agrees with Žerjavić and Kočović estimations. Vučković has stated that he had calculated demographic loss to 1,700,000, and later that number was interpreted as actual number of victims and presented by Yugoslav delegation on peace conference later that year in Paris. [9]

Controversy
There is an undocumented claim that his critics consider his work to have been politically motivated, with the aim of downplaying nationalist Ustashi atrocities during the war, such as at the concentration camp of Jasenovac and that some go so far to state he was a Holocaust denier. Allegedly they point out that Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia lived in rural areas and therefore had much higher growth rate then others. Zerjavic used growth rate for Serbs in Bosnia as 1.1% (as for all nations together), while actual growth rate was 2.4% (1921-1931) and 3.5% (1949-1953). They claim that he underestimated growth rate of Serbs in order to decrease Serbs death count, according to critics. No sources for these claims were given.

Proponents point out that Croatia proper had circa 650,000 Serb inhabitants in 1941 — virtually the same percentage of Croatia's population as in the first post-war census. In 1931, there were 3,430,270 people in Croatia, of which around 633,000 Serbs (~18.5%). In 1948, there were 3,779,858 inhabitants, of which the Serbs numbered 543,795 (14.38%).

Footnotes
At the conference of the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, held on June 6, 1985, Dr Dusan Breznik stated that about 1,100.000 people were killed in the war.
References
^ Nilsen, Av Kjell Arild; "Death toll in Bosnian war was 102,000"; Free Republic - Norwegian News Agency, [1]
^ http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/bul2.html
^ http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 206358.pdf
^ http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal. ... 03448.html
^ http://www.hic.hr/books/manipulations/p07.htm
^ Mayers, Paul and Campbell, Arthur; The Population of Yugoslavia; U.S. Bureau of the Census, Washington D.C., 1954; p.23
^ Barton, Dennis; "Croatia 1941 - 1946"; The ChurchinHistory Information Centre [2]
^ United States Holocaust Memorial Museum [3]
^ Nikolić, Goran; "ŽRTVE RATA IZMEDJU NAUKE I PROPAGANDE"; Nova srpska politička misao (in Serbian) [4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zerjavic

[Jacob Peters]

And your entirely unbsubstantiated posting is of serious reliability? Here is information on independent verification of Zerjavic's research:

I don't claim to be a scholar or specialist in Yugoslav history. Claims put forth by Croatian activists whose works have been cited by Tuđman are often to be looked at with skepitcism for the simple reason of the ethnic sectarian conflict in 1990s Yugoslavia. After all, Croatian revisionists try to dismiss reports by Yugoslavia about Jasenovac because of alleged bias.

[Allen Milcic]

Zerjavic is not a Croatian activist, he is a scholar. Being Croatian and being citied by Tudjman does not automatically discount ones research, especially when this research is verified by various third parties. As you are admittedly neither a scholar nor a specialist in "Yugoslav" history, you would be well-advised to reserve your judgment and, especially, your pontification on persons who have dedicated their lives to this very field.

Allen/

[Jacob Peters]

"Yugoslav" history,

As opposed to "Croatian" history? You insinuate that Yugoslavia is something bogus when there really is little linguistic and anthropological difference between Croats, Serbs, and Muslims.

[Allen Milcic]

As opposed to "Croatian" history? You insinuate that Yugoslavia is something bogus when there really is little linguistic and anthropological difference between Croats, Serbs, and Muslims.

I take it that you are a specialist and/or a scholar on linguistics and anthropology in general, and specifically the languages and anthropology of Croats, Serbs and Muslims? Kindly edify me.

As for any insinuations, my opinion on Yugoslavia has nothing whatsoever to do with linguistics and/or anthropology, so kindly desist from putting words in my mouth. It also has zero relevance to the topic at hand.

Allen/

[ante radnić-cro]

da nije tuzno,bilo bi smjesno.
i found some my relatives(ustashe,even two german soldiers)on jasenovac victims list

[Locke]

Ante, it was clearly written on the first page of the thread that this is the compiled list of war victims from whole Yugoslavia and not a list of victims who died in Jasenovac. I have found some of my relatives in the list and they were not killed anywhere near Jasenovac.

Bok,
P.

[David Thompson]

A series of national and personal insult posts by Hercegpurger were deleted by this moderator - DT.

Adios, Hercegpurger. We don't permit flagrant insult posts here.

[yerbamatt]

Things have got changed a little bit since the last week:

http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/Europ ... index.html

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-art ... v_id=41538

I just wonder if the opposite side has an equally strong case...

[kiseli]

Dear Allen,

1. I attempted to differentiate Jasenovac from a 'death camp' only in as much as there were no extermination facilites such as gas chambers, crematoria etc therein

you are probably wrong. crematorium was build behind "ciglana" (brick-factory).ing.dominico piccili build it in 1942.

I have visited jasenovac before 1991, also, like you.nobody showed me any knife.we watched movie about jasenovac.

yugoslav army destroyed jasenovac after war in 1946, (from 1945-1946 it was POW camp (germans)).

you don't have live victims today about jasenovac, but problem is transport lists of croatian railways. they show you how many compositions and cars actually stopped there. jasenovac was blind track. so you can make some little arithmetic about numbers.

best regards

[Ryan81]

Dear Allen,

1. I attempted to differentiate Jasenovac from a 'death camp' only in as much as there were no extermination facilites such as gas chambers, crematoria etc therein

you are probably wrong. crematorium was build behind "ciglana" (brick-factory).ing.dominico piccili build it in 1942.

I have visited jasenovac before 1991, also, like you.nobody showed me any knife.we watched movie about jasenovac.

yugoslav army destroyed jasenovac after war in 1946, (from 1945-1946 it was POW camp (germans)).

you don't have live victims today about jasenovac, but problem is transport lists of croatian railways. they show you how many compositions and cars actually stopped there. jasenovac was blind track. so you can make some little arithmetic about numbers.

best regards

You're quite right, kiseli. The Ustasha who was in charge of the crematoria (survivors speak of the fact that women and children were thrown alive into the fire) was Hinko "Dominik" Picili.

[gorran_w]

This database on jasenovac.org is by no means list of Jasenovac victims only. Nor is it stated anywhere on the site. It is only implied so by putting it on the site.
Actually, it is the list of war victims for all of the Yugoslavia. The basis is the list formed in official state investigation in 1964. (595.323 names). In the late eighties some Belgrade historical institute led by notorious Milan Bulajić undertook the revision of the list, which resulted with the total of 647.122. I have the list on the CD.

This is not the complete list of losses - the "other side" losses are intentionally and explicitly omitted. And there is, of course, a large number of people omitted accidentally (estimated at 100-150 thousand).

And maybe it is some kind of dishonesty to put the complete list on jasenovac.org.
But I can not understand how on earth could anyone could mistake this list for the list of Jasenovac victims only.
On this list you get 5.943 names for SKOPJE in Macedonia, which is totally unrelated to NDH and Jasenovac.