Mal-treatment of German POWs

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Pingpongtweet
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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#136

Post by Pingpongtweet » 18 Jan 2010, 15:32

Rob - wssob2 wrote:
Bringing in "schoolchildren and tourists" here to the discussion is just noise.
However, the Germans used civilians to clear mines during Operation KOTTBUS - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Belarus
So what?
What is your point?
Is it to equate the Allies with the Nazis?
Perhaps we can mention that the Allies used German civilians to clear mines in Alsace? Page 261 in Alexander Perry Biddiscombe "Werwolf!: the history of the National Socialist guerrilla movement, 1944-1946".

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#137

Post by Pingpongtweet » 18 Jan 2010, 15:47

David Thompson wrote:Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
I would think more care would be taken to upholding the Geneva conventions, who knows, thanks to precedents such as these you may one day find yourself seeing U.S. prisoners marching across american minefields with nothing but their boots to protect them.
Your lurid analogy is inapt. The video clip you linked to shows that the POWs worked slowly and methodically with probes, using what appeared to be a map of the mined area. Furthermore, the video depicts the detonation of the mines by explosives, not boots.
Ok, so perhaps after a possible future Korean war or the like when we will see TV footage of bare-shirted American GI's forced to use metal rods to prod for anti-personnel mines it will not be considered a "violation of the Geneva conventions", or "war crime" or the like. After all, the mines are American, should Korean tourists blow them up instead? Right.


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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#138

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2010, 16:35

Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
Ok, so perhaps after a possible future Korean war or the like when we will see TV footage of bare-shirted American GI's forced to use metal rods to prod for anti-personnel mines it will not be considered a "violation of the Geneva conventions", or "war crime" or the like. After all, the mines are American, should Korean tourists blow them up instead? Right.
For someone who claims to dislike hyperbole, you seem very quick to use it. What if -- as in the Norwegian example you gave -- the newspaper article or narrated film footage makes a bare allegation of "war crimes" without further proof, when in fact POWs volunteered for the mine-clearing work because it paid well?

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#139

Post by Pingpongtweet » 18 Jan 2010, 17:03

David Thompson wrote:Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
Ok, so perhaps after a possible future Korean war or the like when we will see TV footage of bare-shirted American GI's forced to use metal rods to prod for anti-personnel mines it will not be considered a "violation of the Geneva conventions", or "war crime" or the like. After all, the mines are American, should Korean tourists blow them up instead? Right.
For someone who claims to dislike hyperbole, you seem very quick to use it. What if -- as in the Norwegian example you gave -- the newspaper article or narrated film footage makes a bare allegation of "war crimes" without further proof, when in fact POWs volunteered for the mine-clearing work because it paid well?
"Bare allegation", "war crimes". "in fact". For someone who has spent long enough time here to make "staff" level you are very careless with your "in fact"s.
Let me give you some facts.
Using POW's for hazardous work is in violation of the 1929 Geneva convention, that is a fact.
POW's should be released as soon as possible after the conclusion of peace that is a fact.
POWs volunteered for mine-clearance in 1946 that is a fact.
POWS were forced to clear mines in 1945, they protested and referred to the Geneva conventions, and hundreds of them died or were maimed in doing so that is a fact.
It is disingenuous of you to pretend that all who cleared mines were volunteers, that is a fact.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#140

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2010, 17:11

Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
For someone who has spent long enough time here to make "staff" level you are very careless with your "in fact"s.
Questions that begin with "What if" are not usually taken as factual claims, though you seem to have made that mistake. You didn't answer the question, either.

You also wrote:
Let me give you some facts.
Please source them, so the readers can distinguish the provable, factual matter from your personal opinions and notions. You can start with Norway, since that's the example you chose.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#141

Post by Pingpongtweet » 18 Jan 2010, 17:58

David Thompson wrote:Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
For someone who has spent long enough time here to make "staff" level you are very careless with your "in fact"s.
Questions that begin with "What if" are not usually taken as factual claims, though you seem to have made that mistake.

You also wrote:
Let me give you some facts.
Please source them, so the readers can distinguish the provable, factual matter from your personal opinions and notions. You can start with Norway, since that's the example you chose.
I see that you are holding me up to a higher standard than you are willing to comply with yourself. Well thank you. I've already referenced most of my claims, see the Norwegian article.
As for what the Geneva convention says, why don't you just read it?
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/INTRO/305?OpenDocument
- "It is forbidden to employ prisoners of war on unhealthy or dangerous work."
- "In any case, the repatriation of prisoners shall be effected as soon as possible after the conclusion of peace."
In the future I shall expect full referencing of whatever happens to be other than your personal opinions and notions.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#142

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2010, 18:27

Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
I see that you are holding me up to a higher standard than you are willing to comply with yourself. Well thank you.
I see you are a humorist. For my statement that the Germans employed wooden box mines (generally well-known), see US Army technical manual TM 5-223C "German Mine Warfare Equipment" (Mar 1952), pp. 134-140. There is an illustration of one of the more popular of these -- The Shu-mine -- on the wikipedia site at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schu-mine_42 . The block of cast TNT looks very much like what the German POWs were handling in the video you linked to.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#143

Post by Pingpongtweet » 18 Jan 2010, 18:35

David Thompson wrote: What if -- as in the Norwegian example you gave -- the newspaper article or narrated film footage makes a bare allegation of "war crimes" without further proof, when in fact POWs volunteered for the mine-clearing work because it paid well?
Bringing in the wooden mines sounds like a classic example of evasion techniques to me.

Again, see what you wrote above. "when in fact POWs volunteered for the mine-clearing work because it paid well?" Technically true but truly truly disingenuous when I've already provided the link to the article where it is pointed out that it was not until 1946 that many volunteered thanks to improved conditions (such as good pay). Again, as I pointed out, in 1945 the prisoners forced to clear mines (in violation of international law) were dying by the hundreds, as shown by the same article.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#144

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2010, 21:07

Pingpongtweet -- You wrote:
Bringing in the wooden mines sounds like a classic example of evasion techniques to me.
There's nothing evasive about it. It's a fair and direct response to your comment:
At least the French seem to have had the decency to provide their prisoners with metal detectors.
There's not much point in using a metal detector on wooden box mines. From the video link you gave, it looks like wooden box mines were what the POWs found, so your suggestion that the Norwegians were somehow less decent than the French was wide of the mark. Getting aggressive about your error only makes it more obvious.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#145

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2010, 22:40

For interested readers -- On the issue of whether or not using POWs to remove mines was a war crime prior to 1949, see:

POWs and mine removal
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=162109

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#146

Post by michael mills » 19 Jan 2010, 06:55

The link posted by David Thompson contains the following:
Because of its very great importance, the problem of mine-lifting had a determining influence on the development of Articles 51 and 52 during the 1949 Diplomatic Conference. The relevant facts are as follows. The question arose for the first time in North Africa in March 1943, when it was decided that German prisoners of war should remove mines laid by the German army. Such work was prohibited during hostilities by Article 31 of the 1929 Convention, and once hostilities were over it remained prohibited, under Article 32 of the same Convention. The representative of the International Committee of the Red Cross immediately made a protest and although he was not entirely successful he did obtain the concession that only men who had served as sappers should in future be assigned to mine-removal.

The problem arose in an acute form in France at the beginning of 1945. Public opinion considered that mines should be cleared by those who had laid them. In September 1945, the French War Ministry estimated the number of mines to be cleared in France at about one hundred million. The monthly rate of fatal accidents among German prisoners engaged on this work was two thousand [1]. Special safety precautions were subsequently taken, however, and the accident-rate decreased almost to nil [2].
That would seem to support the position taken by Pingpongtweet, namely that compelling German POWs to clear minefields, both during the war and after the German surrender, was in breach of the laws of war applicable at the time.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile investigating whether there were any cases of Germans forcing Allied POWs to clear minefileds, and if so, whether that act was considered by Allied legal authorities to have been a crime and whether the Germans who committed those acts were prosecuted.

The issuing of proper mine-lifting equipment to POWs compelled to carry out the work, and proper supervision, such that the danger to them was no more than in general mine-clearing work, would seem to be irrelevant if this particular use of POWs was prohibted, although of course measures to reduce the danger would mitigate the offence.

The French case described above does suggest criminal negligence on the part of the French authorities who compelled the German POWs to do mine-clearance work. The fact that the accident rate was reduced to almost nil after the special safety precautions were introduced suggests that the 2000 fatal accidents per month occurring prior to that introduction were avoidable, which means that the French authorities must be considered criminally liable for allowing those fatal accidents to occur by not immeduately introducing the safety precautions.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#147

Post by David Thompson » 19 Jan 2010, 09:57

Michael -- You wrote:
That would seem to support the position taken by Pingpongtweet, namely that compelling German POWs to clear minefields, both during the war and after the German surrender, was in breach of the laws of war applicable at the time.
This was certainly the position of the International Committee of the Red Cross, as set forth in its commentary. However, a number of other nations which had ratified the 1929 Geneva POW Convention disagreed with the ICRC, as the commentary describes. The ICRC is generally well-respected, but the 1929 Geneva POW treaty did not give the organization either definitional or enforcement powers.

Unfortunately, the ICRC commentary does not list the nations which authorized or supported the practice of POW mine-clearing prior to 1949. Judging from the results of the secret voting, the disagreement was widespread. Of 46 possible votes at the 1949 Geneva III Convention, 23 supported the express ban provision, 19 opposed it, and 4 nations abstained (Final Record of the Diplomatic Conference of Geneva of 1949, vol. II-b, p. 298).

You also wrote:
Perhaps it would be worthwhile investigating whether there were any cases of Germans forcing Allied POWs to clear minefileds, and if so, whether that act was considered by Allied legal authorities to have been a crime and whether the Germans who committed those acts were prosecuted.

I agree. It would be interesting to see whether any such cases were prosecuted by the allies (I don't recall having seen any examples).

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#148

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Jan 2010, 15:28

ARTICLE 31.
Labor furnished by prisoners of war shall have no direct relation with war operations. It is especially prohibited to use prisoners for manufacturing and transporting arms or munitions of any kind or for transporting material intended for combatant units.
In case of violation of the provisions of the preceding paragraph, prisoners, after executing or beginning to execute the order, shall be free to have their protests presented through the mediation of the agents whose functions are set forth in Articles 43 and 44, or, in the absence of an agent, through the mediation of representatives of the protecting Power.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile investigating whether there were any cases of Germans forcing Allied POWs to clear minefileds, and if so, whether that act was considered by Allied legal authorities to have been a crime and whether the Germans who committed those acts were prosecuted.
I agree. It would be interesting to see whether any such cases were prosecuted by the allies (I don't recall having seen any examples).
Not minefields per se - but the FJ at Maleme in May 1941 forced Commonwealth POWS to unload munitions and stores and manhandle Ju52son the flightline under fire from the defenders on Hill 107.

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#149

Post by stril » 19 Jan 2010, 17:29

Hello
Clearing minefields in Norway was as mentioned done by german prisoners. They had good maps, made and provided by own forces, making it rather "easy" clearing those minefields.
If looking at the provided documents you can see the details of such maps, also number of mines they had to clear, and the final document. " proved to be clear of mines to our complete satisfaction by prodding shoulder to shoulder".
Prodding shoulder to shoulder was quite common, very often mentioned in the reports.
A crime ? Perhaps, but im quite sure it would have been done the same way today.
Just wonder what would have caused most damage, norwegian with little skills doing it, or germans with knowledge of own maps and equipment.
340,000 germans was in Norway pr may 45, 170+ died during work with minefields.
You have to be good if those numbers qualify to call it a crime.
regards
stril

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Re: Mal-treatment of German POWs

#150

Post by JTG » 19 Jan 2010, 20:03

Clearing of minefields and almost all other munitions in the Channel Islands was performed by German POWs. Some 114,000 mines were lifted by the end of 1945, and 26,500 tons of ammunition disposed of.

Some photographs of the proceedings are in "The War in the Channel Islands - Then and Now".

I am unaware of any casualties, but I would need to check further to be certain.

John Germain

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