Katyn Massacre Documents

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Karman
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Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Karman » 06 Jun 2005 12:13

Supreme Russian Military prosecutor Mr. Savenkov announced that the criminal case initiated by the Military Prosecutor’s Office with regard to the massacre of Polish POW in various Soviet prisons and POW camps in 1940 internationally known as the Katyn case was over in March this year. The Russian Military Prosecutor Savenkov announced that the examination proved that the total number of executed people made 1800 people (22 of them were identified) and that local NKVD authorities bear all the responsibility for the massacre.

I am mentioning this announcement of Mr. Savenkov because the Russian military prosecutor indirectly recognized and confirmed that the group of documents found in the Soviet archives and then published in Poland in 1992 and in Russia in 1993 were bogus.

I mean the documents discovered in the archive of the Russian President Eltzin in 1992:

1. Memorandum report of Beria to Cental committee of the Communist Party with the request for approval to execute the Polish officers and other POW dated on March 5, 1940. The report bears the approval resolutions of Stalin and other leaders of USSR.
2. Extract from the minutes of Politburo meeting that contains the recommendations of Politburo members to NKVD to initiate the massacre of Polish POWs dated on April 5, 1940.
3. Hand writing memorandum note of the KGB head Shelepine to Krushiov with the proposal to shred all the documents with regard to Katyn massacre dated on March 3, 1959.

The photocopies of the above documents and their texts can be found here: http://www.hro.org/editions/karta/nr2829/polen4.htm
(Please note that all references in this text are in Russian)

So the Beria’s memorandum note unconditionally confirms that the head office of NKVD initiated the massacre (but not the local authorities as modern Russian Military Prosecutor insists).

The extract from the minutes of the Politburo CP meeting proves that the whole leadership of the Soviet Union together with senior NKVD authorities are responsible for the massacre (not the local NKVD officers only as the Military Prosecutor insists).

The note of the KGB head Shelepin to Krushiov gives the exact figures of the executed Polish officers: 21857 people, of them 4,421 were murdered in Katyn forest, 3,820 people were executed in Starobelsk camp near Kharkov, 6,311 were massacred in Ostashkov camp near Kalinin (Tver) and 7,305 people were executed in various prisons in Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia (but not 1800 people as the examination of Mr. Savenkov’s office proved now).

So the report of the military Prosecutor office indirectly confirmed that the above documents were false.

The argument about the character of those documents started immediately after their publication in Russia. The main critics of the authenticity were initiated by a Russian journalist Yury Mukhin in his books “Katynsky Detective” and “Antirossiyskaya Podlost” (“Katyn Detective Story” and “Anti-Russian Dirty Tricks”).
http://toyota-rus.narod.ru/files/03-09- ... index.html

Mukhin is not a professional scholar, he has not seen the originals of the documents and actually did not use the proper literate language against his opponents. His books are very polemical and he did more journalist than scholar work. Actually the specialists did not participate in the argument and the counter-arguments to Mukhin’s blames were of the same character (the only reply to Mukhin criticism I found here: http://katyn.codis.ru/muhin.htm). And today Mukhin’s blames and suspects were sponsored by the official investigation.

Mukhin describes the story of the discovery of the documents as follows:

“The then head of the RF President administration Y. Petrov, advisor of the RF President D. Volkogonov, the senior archivist R. Pikhoya and the director of the RF Presidential Archive A. Korotkov reviewed the secret materials of the archive in July 1992. They discovered “special parcel No1”. The documents they found were so serious that they immediately reported to Boris Eltzyn. The Russian President ordered that Rudolf Pikhoya as the senior archivist of Russia moved to Warsaw and passed those shocking documents to president Walensa. Then the copies of the documents were given to the Constitutional Court, General Prosecutor office and published for public”.

The documents were first published in Poland in 1992 and then in Russia in 1993. Then it was said that the Polish side did not get the originals but the copies only. So afaik nobody has seen the originals of those docs yet.

Mukhin found probably hundreds of proves that the docs were bogus but most of them were very polemic and I would like to draw some remarks made by another person D. Kropotov with regard to one document: note of Shelepin to Krushiov dated on 1959.

1. The Shelepin’s note was hand-written on a blank sheet of paper without letterhead and that is unique for an official KGB document. The defenders of the authenticity of the document say that the document was very secret and Shelepin could not entrust its execution to a secretary. But if we buy it then the secrecy code of the document is wrong: it has a lower secrecy code: “совершенно секретно” but the top secrecy code in the Soviet Union starting from 20th till the 90th of the last century was: “особая папка”.
2. The text of the note says that the KGB files keep the official records of imprisoned and interned Polish officers, gendarmes, police officers and colonists, landlords etc. But according to a document published together with other Katyn documents all records for prisoners of Starobelsky camp were shredded. So Shelepin could not say that they are kept in KGB.
3. Shelepin’s note stated that the execution of prisoners and internees was performed on the basis of the Decision of Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. It is supposed that when Shelepin was writing his note he had some documents in front of him he used to compile this note. That is strange that he used anachronism in the name of the Communist Party. In 1940 it was not called CPSU but VKP(b) – All-Soviet Communist Party (Bolsheviks).
4. The note says that all prisoners and internees were sentenced to death on the basis of «учетных дел» (filing records) initiated on them in camps in 1940. But that confronts the information contained in the extract from the Minutes of Politburo meeting which says that the Polish officers were executed on the basis of notes (справка) issued by the heads of camps and criminal cases «уголовное дело» (but not filing records). In accordance with the Beria’s memorandum Beria proposed to execute those officers who participated in counter-revolutionary organizations. And those were definitely kept in prisons and camps on the basis of criminal cases but not common filing records for POW and internees. And those criminal cases were reviewed by “troika” that sentenced them to death.
5. Shelepin used the wrong name of the Authorized Special Committee for Investigation of the massacre in Katyn and used wrong name of the state authorities initiated the work of that Committee.
6. Signing the document “Shelepin” writes: Chairman of the Committee of the State Security of the Council of Ministers of USSR. («Председатель Комитета Государственной Безопасности при Совете Министров СССР»). According to the rules of the Russian literate language only the first word in the name of an organization is written with a capital letter. There are known none of the documents where all words of the name KGB were written with capital letters. Shelepin never did it in the rest of his letters. And only in modern language following the rules of English many people write all letters of a name of an organization with capital letters.
7. Shelepin himself always denied that he ever wrote this note. He always said that the first time he learnt from newspapers about the Katyn case.
8. Nobody has ever seen the originals of those documents.

These are just some of the remarks from the argument about the authenticity of the “documents” recognizing the role of NKVD and Soviet leadership in the Katyn massacre.

Mr. Savenkov when being questioned by a Polish journalist about the Katyn massacre investigation said: do not press on us or we will put out claws. I think he meant the official recognition of the false character of those documents and the role of some Russian and Polish officials in it.

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Jun 2005 13:45

Facsimiles of some of the contested documents may be seen at:

http://katyn.codis.ru/fberia.htm
http://katyn.codis.ru/fpolburo.htm
http://katyn.codis.ru/fprotpb.htm
http://katyn.codis.ru/fshelep.htm

The issue of forgery and Mukhin's arguments are extensively discussed at:

Soviet Responsibility at Katyn: pro and con
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56940

Readers interested in more information on the Katyn killings may also find these threads helpful:

Katyn - 1944 Soviet special commission report
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57175
Katyn -- the 1943 O'Malley report
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57147
Katyn – 1952 US Congressional findings
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57050
Katyn -- Maps
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57045
The Katyn testimony of Eugen Oberhauser
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56995
The Katyn testimony of Boris Bazilevskiy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56997
The Katyn testimony of Victor Il’ich Prosorovski
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57002
The Katyn testimony of Marko Antonov Markov
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57000
The Katyn testimony of Reinhard von Eichborn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56993
The Katyn testimony of Friedrich Ahrens
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56992
Document related to the Polish POWs in USSR 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=28090
Katyn, Injustice and the IMT
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=44639
Katyn -- the IMT spat
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57145
Katyn mass murder question
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45481
The Soviet war crimes against Poland: Katyn 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18124
US report about Katyn delivered to Poland?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=19866
KATYN - an un-punished war crime !
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15072
Perpetrators of the massacre in Katyn forest
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66696

Karman
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Post by Karman » 06 Jun 2005 16:51

David Thompson wrote:Facsimiles of some of the contested documents may be seen at:

http://katyn.codis.ru/fberia.htm
http://katyn.codis.ru/fpolburo.htm
http://katyn.codis.ru/fprotpb.htm
http://katyn.codis.ru/fshelep.htm

The issue of forgery and Mukhin's arguments are extensively discussed at:

Soviet Responsibility at Katyn: pro and con
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56940
Thank you. Not to restart the referring thread I have to say that I cannot agree with Serhey Romanov's words:
"It's up to the deniers to prove that there was a conspiracy to forge the documents. Until proven false, the documents should be considered authentic, just as _any other_ documents with a known provenance". The formula of presumption of innocence does not work here. This is not advocacy. A document cannot be introuced as a historical document if its authenticity has not been proved and it is in doubt.

Molobo
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Post by Molobo » 06 Jun 2005 18:27

There is no doubt among historians that Katyn was the work of Soviet Union.It's denial falls into the same category of "credibility" as Holocaust denial in my view.
Besides the leaders of Soviet Union admited the responsibilty of their state.
Russian prosecutors however denied the polish IPN access to several documents, which could have led to persecution of people taking part in the crime and still alive.
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art6.html
Then came Mikhail Gorbachev and glasnost. In 1987, the Soviet president signed an agreement with the head of Poland's military government, Gen. Wojciech Jaruzelski, for a joint historical commission to investigate "blank spots," that is, censored subjects, in the two countries' troubled history. Polish historians tried unsuccessfully to include Katyn on the agenda. The commission did provide a forum, however, for Polish historians to press their Soviet counterparts for access to official records, even if to confirm the Burdenko Commission's conclusions. (There were, after all, "court historians" on both sides.) Gorbachev had a chance to address Katyn during a July 1988 state visit to Warsaw, but dodged the issue.

Pressure was building on the Soviets, however. Prominent Polish intellectuals signed an open letter asking for access to official records and sent it to Soviet colleagues. A month after Gorbachev's visit, demonstrators paraded in the streets of Warsaw demanding an official inquiry. The Kremlin had to do something; it chose to deceive. In November, the Soviet Government announced plans for a new memorial at Katyn commemorating Polish officers "[who] together with 500 Soviet prisoners . . . were shot by the fascists in 1943 as our army approached Smolensk." This was not true, and the change of dates was a further obfuscation, but more important was the subliminal message directed to the Poles: Russia and Poland were both victims of German aggression, something neither country should forget. 14

In early 1989, three top Soviet officials sent Gorbachev a memorandum warning him that the issue was becoming "more acute" and that "time is not our ally." 15 Some form of official admission, even a partial one, would have to be made. At a Kremlin ceremony on 13 October 1990, Gorbachev handed Jaruzelski a folder of documents that left no doubt about Soviet guilt. He did not, however, make a full and complete disclosure. Missing from the folder was the March 1940 NKVD execution order. Gorbachev laid all blame on Stalin's secret police chief, Lavrenty Beria, and his deputy. (This was a safe move, because Beria and his deputy had been branded criminals and summarily shot by Stalin's successors.) Gorbachev also failed to mention that the actual number of victims was 21,857--more than the usually cited figure of 15,000. By shaving the truth, Gorbachev had shielded the Soviet Government and the Communist Party, making Katyn look like a rogue secret police action rather than an official act of mass murder.
New Evidence From an Old Source

The next major discovery turned up in an unexpected place--the National Archives in College Park, Maryland. While conducting research on Katyn at the Archives in spring 1990, a Polish-American art and antiques expert named Waclaw Godziemba-Maliszewski was given a copy of an article entitled "The Katyn Enigma: New Evidence in a 40-Year Riddle" that had appeared in the Spring 1981 issue of Studies in Intelligence. It was written by CIA officer and NPIC analyst Robert G. Poirier, who used imagery from Luftwaffe aerial photoreconnaissance during World War II to uncover evidence of the original crime and a Soviet coverup during 1943-1944. 16 The imagery, selected from 17 sorties flown between 1941 and 1944 and spanning a period before, during, and after the German occupation of the Smolensk area, was important evidence. Among other things, it showed that the area where the mass graves were located had not been altered during the German occupation and that the same area displayed physical changes that predated the Germans' arrival. It also captured the NKVD on film bulldozing some of the Polish graves and removing bodies. Poirier speculated that the corpses had been removed and reburied at another site.

Largest of seven mass graves. Five layers of 500 murdered Polish officers buried here by the Soviets.

At the National Archives, Godziemba-Maliszewski located the same imagery that Poirier had used. He also found additional shots of Katyn and the other two execution sites at Mednoye and near Kharkov. He discovered much additional imagery, new collateral evidence, and eyewitness testimony, resulting in important new conclusions about what actually happened at Katyn.

After completing further research, in January 1991 Godziemba-Maliszewski turned over copies of the imagery and Poirier's article to scientists at the Jagiellonian University in Cracow. They in turn passed the information to the Polish Ministry of Justice. The Ministry had to be convinced that the article and photographic evidence were bona fide and that Godziemba-Maliszewski was not, as some suspected, a CIA agent! Stefan Sniezko, Poland's deputy general prosecutor, then gave an interview to the German newspaper Tagesspiegel [Daily Mirror], published on 12 May 1991. This was the first public disclosure of the Luftwaffe imagery and its utility for identifying burial sites in the USSR.

The disclosure had an immediate impact in Germany, where media interest in Katyn had been running high since the 1980s, and in the USSR as well. Armed with this "smoking gun," a Polish prosecutor assigned to investigate Soviet crimes flew to Kharkov (now Kharkiv), where the Ukrainian KGB, under watchful Russian eyes, assisted in identifying a series of sites, including Piatikhatki, where prisoners from the Starobelsk camp had been executed. Ironically, for a second time the German military had provided evidence, albeit unwittingly, of Soviet complicity in the massacre.

The new evidence put additional pressure on the Soviet Union and later the Russian Federation to reveal the full truth. In 1992, Moscow suddenly "discovered" the original 1940 execution ordered signed by Stalin and five other Politburo members-- in Gorbachev's private archive. 17 Gorbachev almost certainly had read it in 1989, if not earlier. 18 In October 1992, Russian President Boris Yeltsin presented a copy of the order along with 41 other documents to the new Polish president, former Solidarity leader Lech Walesa. In doing so, he made a point of chiding his arch enemy Gorbachev, with whom he was locked in a bitter domestic political battle. During a 1993 visit to Warsaw's military cemetery, Yeltsin knelt before a Polish priest and kissed the ribbon of a wreath he had placed at the foot of the Katyn cross. 19 In a joint statement with Walesa, he pledged to punish those still alive who had taken part in the massacre and make reparations--a promise that has not been kept. Meanwhile, Soviet and Polish teams were permitted to excavate at Katyn and the other two sites, on a selective basis, where Polish prisoners had been executed. In 1994, a Soviet historian published a book that for the first time called Katyn a "crime against humanity." 20
It should also be noted that due to current political climate in Russia, we shouldn't expect in clearing the matter from Russian presecutors, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Russian authorites decide to hide the truth or make it more diffecult to gain it.

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Post by Karman » 07 Jun 2005 07:55

Molobo wrote:There is no doubt among historians that Katyn was the work of Soviet Union.It's denial falls into the same category of "credibility" as Holocaust denial in my view.
Besides the leaders of Soviet Union admited the responsibilty of their state.
Russian prosecutors however denied the polish IPN access to several documents, which could have led to persecution of people taking part in the crime and still alive.

It should also be noted that due to current political climate in Russia, we shouldn't expect in clearing the matter from Russian presecutors, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Russian authorites decide to hide the truth or make it more diffecult to gain it.
Very good point for the development of the discussion. Let us review the Polish position towards the statement of the Russian Military Prosecutor. Almost two months have passed since the Savenkov's announcement. But the Polish reaction looks very strange. Polish officials said that they were not satisfied with the results; they said that the figures are minimized; they did not like that only a third part of the examination materials were passed to them and threatened to initiate their own investigation. That is all afaik. There was no mention of the contested documents. That was evident to say that the results of the Russian investigation means nothing because it confronts the authentic original documents from the Russian archives soundly recognizing the number of executed people and the names of people responsible for the massacre. But nothing happenned. And IMHO it proves that the Polish side indirectly recognized that those documents are forgery.

So please leave the crap about "the current situation in Russia" and Russian "hiding the truth" for another case.

Molobo
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Post by Molobo » 07 Jun 2005 12:34

And IMHO it proves that the Polish side indirectly recognized that those documents are forgery.
Actually the reason for Polish reaction was denial of access to essential documentation that could lead to persecution of people responsible and still alive.
One other reason could be the cooperation of Gestapo and NKWD in years 1939-1941 in accordance to treaties signed by German Reich and Soviet Union.
http://www.warsawuprising.com/jankowski1.htm
In 1940, there was a meeting in the Polish town Zakopane between the Gestapo and the NKWD to coordinate the killing and the deportation policy of the then allied Germany and Soviet Russia
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm
The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:

Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.

Moscow, September 28,1939.

For the Government of the German Retch:

J. RIBBENTROP

By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

W. MOLOTOV
There was no mention of the contested documents.
Likely because they are contested only in "specific" so to speak circles and as such are of interest to historians.

So please leave the crap about "the current situation in Russia"
Current Russian administration is most uncooperative in pursuing the research about communist war crimes and crimes against humanity, it also justifies Soviet aggression and occupation of Central Europe.In view of that It is reasnoble to be specific about its intentions when it comes to such invistigations.

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Jun 2005 14:40

the Russian military prosecutor indirectly recognized and confirmed that the group of documents found in the Soviet archives and then published in Poland in 1992 and in Russia in 1993 were bogus.
Can we get a copy of this announcement in English posted or linked to here? I'm not seeing anything in the Savenkov quotes suggesting forgery.

Katyn Massacre Was Not Genocide — Russian Military Prosecutor
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/11/katynfiles.shtml
Poland Demands Names of Katyn Culprits
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/23/ ... land.shtml
Poland urges trial of Katyn war criminals
http://eng.9may.ru/eng_news/m12668
Last edited by David Thompson on 07 Jun 2005 14:55, edited 1 time in total.

Karman
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Post by Karman » 07 Jun 2005 14:49

Molobo wrote:
And IMHO it proves that the Polish side indirectly recognized that those documents are forgery.
Actually the reason for Polish reaction was denial of access to essential documentation that could lead to persecution of people responsible and still alive.
.
Give me a break. The joint Soviet-Polish investigation group worked in the Russian archives early in 90 under Gorbi. They were granted all the access to the archives except the most close ones. The Polish side was not satisfied with the results of the committee since they did not find the confirmation that the Soviet gvt was responsible for the massacre. They reasonably assumed that the clues are hidden in the top secret archives in which the access was not granted. In a while a group of Russian archivists discovered in that part of closed archives a group of documents that unconditionally proved that: 1. the execution was initiated by Beria; 2. Politburo members authorized the execution and appointed "troika" to prepare the deal (all the names were provided); 3. The exact numbers of the executed people were given.

What else "secret data" you want to know about the case? Do you seriously mean that the top secret part of Russian archives keeps as top secret information the names of common NKVD understrappers who did the dirty job and are "people responsible and still alive"? What other names from the year 1940 do you want to know?

But nevertheless Poles forget all those shocking documents and start to say that some documents are still hidden for them instead of soundly speaking that they have authentic documents. That said that they recognized that those docs were forgery.

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Jun 2005 14:59

According to Savenkov, the case consists of 183 volumes, 116 of which contain state secrets. The remaining 67 volumes are open for study and the Polish side has already been informed that Russia is ready to hand them over.
Katyn Massacre Was Not Genocide — Russian Military Prosecutor
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/11/katynfiles.shtml
But nevertheless Poles forget all those shocking documents and start to say that some documents are still hidden for them instead of soundly speaking that they have authentic documents. That said that they recognized that those docs were forgery.
Sources, please. The section rules require them. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

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Post by Karman » 07 Jun 2005 15:36

David Thompson wrote:
the Russian military prosecutor indirectly recognized and confirmed that the group of documents found in the Soviet archives and then published in Poland in 1992 and in Russia in 1993 were bogus.
Can we get a copy of this announcement in English posted or linked to here? I'm not seeing anything in the Savenkov quotes suggesting forgery.
I said that Savenkov announcement confronts the data contained in the published documents at all: the number of held people, the number of executed people, the secrecy with regard of guilty people. Since he does not refer to those documents he does not rely on them and thus he indirectly interferes in the old argument concerning those docs recognizing them forgery.


http://www.news.izvestia.ru/community/news93760
Следствием установлено точное количество лиц, которые содержались в лагерях, "и в отношении которых принимались решения" - чуть более 14.54 тыс. человек. Из них чуть более 10.7 тыс. человек содержались в лагерях на территории РСФСР, а 3 тысячи 800 человек - на Украине."Установлена гибель одной тысячи 803 человек (из числа содержавшихся в лагерях), личности 22 человек идентифицированы", - сказал Савенков.

“The examination determined the exact number of people held in the camps and “regarding whom the decisions were made” that makes slightly more than 14,54 thousand people. 10,7 thousand people were held in camps on the territory of the USSR and 3,800 people were held in Ukraine. The death of 1803 people was ascertained (among those held in camps), personalities of 22 people were determined” as Savenkov said.

"В рамках расследования были установлены и допрошены более 900 свидетелей, проведены более 18 экспертиз, в рамках которых исследованы более тысячи объектов. Эксгумировано более 200 тел",

In the framework of the investigation more than 900 witnesses were determined and questioned, 18 expertise were made, more than thousand objects were examined. 200 dead bodies were exhumed.

Всего в деле 183 тома, из которых 116 содержат сведения, составляющие государственную тайну. "67 томов открыты, и мы готовы их в любой момент предоставить польской стороне", - сказал Савенков. Он отметил, что постановление о прекращении уголовного дела в отношении виновных лиц также носит секретный характер, и в связи с этим не назвал имена виновных.

The criminal case has 183 volumes of documents. 116 of them contain the data constituting the state secret. 67 volumes are open and we are ready to provide it to the Polish side at any time.

The decree on the termination of the criminal case in respect of guilty people is closed and their names cannot be announced.

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Post by Karman » 07 Jun 2005 15:45

David Thompson wrote:
the Russian military prosecutor indirectly recognized and confirmed that the group of documents found in the Soviet archives and then published in Poland in 1992 and in Russia in 1993 were bogus.
Can we get a copy of this announcement in English posted or linked to here? I'm not seeing anything in the Savenkov quotes suggesting forgery.

Katyn Massacre Was Not Genocide — Russian Military Prosecutor
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/11/katynfiles.shtml
Poland Demands Names of Katyn Culprits
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/23/ ... land.shtml
Poland urges trial of Katyn war criminals
http://eng.9may.ru/eng_news/m12668
Only this reference http://eng.9may.ru/eng_news/m12668 of those provided contains the tre translation of the words said by Savenkov. The first two did not provide the number of executed people announced by Savenkov and referred to those documents Savenkov ignores giving his words from a wrong point.

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Post by Karman » 07 Jun 2005 16:15

David Thompson wrote:
According to Savenkov, the case consists of 183 volumes, 116 of which contain state secrets. The remaining 67 volumes are open for study and the Polish side has already been informed that Russia is ready to hand them over.
Katyn Massacre Was Not Genocide — Russian Military Prosecutor
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/03/11/katynfiles.shtml
But nevertheless Poles forget all those shocking documents and start to say that some documents are still hidden for them instead of soundly speaking that they have authentic documents. That said that they recognized that those docs were forgery.
Sources, please. The section rules require them. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962
I did not provide references since they are in open sources and were published as knews from the countries concerned. As for the position of the Polish side I read about it in the Russian sources only and fully understand that they can be not full and not updated. So I would prefer to learn more about the position of the Polish side from our Polish colleagues than to provide it on my own. Insofar afaik they do not refer to those documents and try to find something knew what also proves that the believe that those docs cannot be used as a source for the examination.

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Post by David Thompson » 07 Jun 2005 17:02

Karman -- Thank you for the text of the Savenkov announcement.

You said:
I said that Savenkov announcement confronts the data contained in the published documents at all: the number of held people, the number of executed people, the secrecy with regard of guilty people. Since he does not refer to those documents he does not rely on them and thus he indirectly interferes in the old argument concerning those docs recognizing them forgery.
In the absence of any statement whatsoever by Savenkov on the issue of forgery, I don't see that his announcement has any bearing on the claim.

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Post by Karman » 08 Jun 2005 18:56

David Thompson wrote:Karman -- Thank you for the text of the Savenkov announcement.

You said:
I said that Savenkov announcement confronts the data contained in the published documents at all: the number of held people, the number of executed people, the secrecy with regard of guilty people. Since he does not refer to those documents he does not rely on them and thus he indirectly interferes in the old argument concerning those docs recognizing them forgery.
In the absence of any statement whatsoever by Savenkov on the issue of forgery, I don't see that his announcement has any bearing on the claim.
David Thompson:
The absense of any referrence from the part of Savenkov with regard to those documents supports those who insist that they are forgery. The fact that Polish opponents in their argument against Savenkov do not refer to those documents as well supports those who insist that they are forgery.

Moreover Savenkov announcement practically means that modern Russia returns to the Soviet position and denys the Soviet guilt in Katyn murder. Germans claimed that they discovered 4,5 dead bodies. Some more deads were found later but Russians said that they are responsible for deaths of 1,803 people only. Who killed the others then? But both sides silently ignore those documents and even do not insist on their expertise.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 08 Jun 2005 19:23

I think the readers can draw their own conclusions from the wording of Savenkov's announcement, the withholding from public view of about 2/3 of the 60-year old evidence on the grounds that it contains "state secrets" of a previous regime, and the conclusion of the investigation without prosecution.

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