Katyn Massacre Documents

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Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 29 Jul 2005 13:48

Nothing to see here. :)
Last edited by Andreas on 29 Jul 2005 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

Karman
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Post by Karman » 29 Jul 2005 14:09

Andreas wrote:
Karman wrote:
Molobo wrote:
the note was made on November 5, 1940 (His "note" with the proposal to execute Polish officers is dating back to March 5, 1940). So it is almost at the same time with two-three months difference
Thank you for confirming that the two events are not in the same time.
You probably could explain what so special did happen during those two-three months that made Stalin to change his views so radically?
The Germans invaded the Soviet Union and were busy beating the living daylights out of the Soviet armies?

All the best

Andreas
Small correction:
The note of Beria to Stalin with the request to execute Polish POWs was executed on March 5, 1940
The note of Beria to Stalin summoning the results of his work with Polish officers of high ranks and various political views (including devoted supporters of Sikorski gvt) was executed on November 2, 1940. In this note Beria explained that he selected 24 high Polish officers including 3 general, 1 colonnel etc who believed that the war between Germany and SU was inevitable and wanted to participate in the war against Germany. One of questionned general agreed to participate in forming Polish forces in USSR without consent of Sikorski's gvt but insisting prior determination of the political status of Polish state, 2 generals requested for the approval of Sikorski's gvt.

Both notes were signed the same 1940 year but sure both of them required some time for execution. So I presumed to reduce the time gap between their execution to 2-3 months.
Regards.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 29 Jul 2005 14:13

Brain seizure on my part. I read a '1' where there is a '0'.

My apologies.

All the best

Andreas

Molobo
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Post by Molobo » 29 Jul 2005 14:14

You probably could explain what so special did happen during those two-three months that made Stalin to change his views so radically?
I see no radical change.After eliminating officers he begun to create a puppet army with the few collaborators that applied as leaders-Berling in charge.
And three months is 90 days-a lot of time.
this note Beria explained that he selected 24 high Polish officers including 3 general, 1 colonnel etc who believed that the war between Germany and SU was inevitable
A little twisting of history by Karman of course.
http://www.wspolnota-polska.org.pl/inde ... =ak50322_1
Może plany takiego wykorzystania całej polskiej kadry oficerskiej - oczywiście, po jej skutecznej "reedukacji" w duchu komunistycznym - istniały już wcześniej (przemawia za tym fakt prowadzenia rozmów z różnymi, znajdującymi się w więzieniach generałami, podczas których proponowano stworzenie podległej Sowietom armii polskiej; ktoś musiał wszak stanowić jej kadrę)? Czy oficerowie zapłacili życiem, bo - wbrew nadziejom - okazali się, jak pisał później Beria "nie rokującymi poprawy [sic! - SK] wrogami władzy radzieckiej", a zatem stali się również "bezużyteczni"?
Perhaps plans for using the whole polish officers corps-of course after its succesfull "reeducation" in communist spirit-existed earlier(this is implied by fact that talks were held with different imprisoned generals, during which they were proposed to form a polish army obedient to the Soviets, somebody had to form officer corps)? Did the officers paid with their lives because-against wishes-they proved, like Beria wrote later"enemies of soviet rule with no hopes of improvement".

Karman
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Post by Karman » 29 Jul 2005 15:01

Molobo wrote:
You probably could explain what so special did happen during those two-three months that made Stalin to change his views so radically?
I see no radical change.After eliminating officers he begun to create a puppet army with the few collaborators that applied as leaders-Berling in charge.
And three months is 90 days-a lot of time.
this note Beria explained that he selected 24 high Polish officers including 3 general, 1 colonnel etc who believed that the war between Germany and SU was inevitable
A little twisting of history by Karman of course.
http://www.wspolnota-polska.org.pl/inde ... =ak50322_1
Może plany takiego wykorzystania całej polskiej kadry oficerskiej - oczywiście, po jej skutecznej "reedukacji" w duchu komunistycznym - istniały już wcześniej (przemawia za tym fakt prowadzenia rozmów z różnymi, znajdującymi się w więzieniach generałami, podczas których proponowano stworzenie podległej Sowietom armii polskiej; ktoś musiał wszak stanowić jej kadrę)? Czy oficerowie zapłacili życiem, bo - wbrew nadziejom - okazali się, jak pisał później Beria "nie rokującymi poprawy [sic! - SK] wrogami władzy radzieckiej", a zatem stali się również "bezużyteczni"?
Perhaps plans for using the whole polish officers corps-of course after its succesfull "reeducation" in communist spirit-existed earlier(this is implied by fact that talks were held with different imprisoned generals, during which they were proposed to form a polish army obedient to the Soviets, somebody had to form officer corps)? Did the officers paid with their lives because-against wishes-they proved, like Beria wrote later"enemies of soviet rule with no hopes of improvement".
To summon up: speculations.

About my "twisting of history". Molobo: Beria questionned all officers and reported not only of the officers tolerant to Soviet Power - gvt (not Soviet rule) but of all officers. The officers who were not tolerant to Soveit gvt were not murdered. Beria recommended to use Berling's group as the only tolerant to Soviets but Stalin did not follow that recommendation. He did do nothing since he considered other possibilities and made up his mind about the formation of pro-Soviet Polish national troops only on June 4, 1941 (but his order was not implemented) . And finally he made a deal with Sikorski on the formation of all-Polish troops after July 30, 1941 (Sikorski-Mayski Pact).

The conditions when the decision was made are evident but anyway your claim that Stalin planned to form a puppet pro-Soviet Polish army are baseless to wit: review of attitude of all Polish officers of all political views to take part in the formation of Polish units - Ommitance to form only pro-Soviet Polish troops (Berling's group) - formation of Polish troops on the basis of agreement with Sikorski (Anders' army)

I wonder how can you support your claim of Stalin's plan "eliminating officers he begun to create a puppet army "?

Besides, you love to repeat of pro-Soviet Polish "puppet army". With all due respect to Polish soldiers fighting in WW2 on all sides I have to say that your leaders' politics caused that all Polish units had to be "puppet" - "puppet" Soviet and "puppet" British.

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Post by Molobo » 29 Jul 2005 15:46

He did do nothing
Except of course, sparing Berlings life.
your claim that Stalin planned to form a puppet pro-Soviet Polish army
Are confirmed by the fact that such Army under Berling was created by Stalin.
With all due respect to Polish soldiers fighting in WW2 on all sides I have to say that your leaders' politics caused that all Polish units had to be "puppet" - "puppet" Soviet and "puppet" British.
I am afraid a reason for this was Soviet and Nazi alliance aggresion upon Poland in september 1939.I don't think it were Polish leaders who signed Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm
The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:

Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.

Moscow, September 28,1939.

For the Government of the German Retch:

J. RIBBENTROP

By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

W. MOLOTOV

Molobo
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Post by Molobo » 29 Jul 2005 15:47

He did do nothing
Except of course, sparing Berlings life.
your claim that Stalin planned to form a puppet pro-Soviet Polish army
Are confirmed by the fact that such Army under Berling was created by Stalin.
With all due respect to Polish soldiers fighting in WW2 on all sides I have to say that your leaders' politics caused that all Polish units had to be "puppet" - "puppet" Soviet and "puppet" British.
I am afraid a reason for this was Soviet and Nazi alliance aggresion upon Poland in september 1939.I don't think it were Polish leaders who signed Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm
The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:

Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.

Moscow, September 28,1939.

For the Government of the German Retch:

J. RIBBENTROP

By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

W. MOLOTOV
Ware Molotov and Ribbentrop Poles.Please Karman explain this new conspiracy theory of yours claiming that both Soviet and Nazi leadership were made of Poles.

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Post by Karman » 29 Jul 2005 16:11

Molobo wrote:
He did do nothing
Except of course, sparing Berlings life.
What is the connection? Berling plus five Polish officers were moved to a NKVD dacha (country house) in Malakhovka where they got acquainted to Russian statutes but they did not form the army. Stalin did not give such an order.
your claim that Stalin planned to form a puppet pro-Soviet Polish army
Are confirmed by the fact that such Army under Berling was created by Stalin.
Wrong. When did Stalin creat such an army? I will remind you. In 1943! First he started to creat Anders' army in 1941. Can you prove that that was not Stalin who initiated the formation of Anders' army?

With all due respect to Polish soldiers fighting in WW2 on all sides I have to say that your leaders' politics caused that all Polish units had to be "puppet" - "puppet" Soviet and "puppet" British.
I am afraid a reason for this was Soviet and Nazi alliance aggresion upon Poland in september 1939.I don't think it were Polish leaders who signed Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.
Polish leaders pissed off their country before that Pact was signed. They ignored all the attempts to create anti-Hitler coalition after Hitler came to power. Besides your quote from the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has no correlation neither with the Katyn massacre nor with the formation of Polish units on the territory of SU.

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Ogorek
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Post by Ogorek » 29 Jul 2005 17:36

Polish leaders pissed off their country before that Pact was signed. They ignored all the attempts to create anti-Hitler coalition after Hitler came to power.
And neither did they attempt to "create" an anti-Stalin coalition.....

Karman
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Post by Karman » 29 Jul 2005 22:09

Molobo wrote: Perhaps plans for using the whole polish officers corps-of course after its succesfull "reeducation" in communist spirit-existed earlier(this is implied by fact that talks were held with different imprisoned generals, during which they were proposed to form a polish army obedient to the Soviets, somebody had to form officer corps)? Did the officers paid with their lives because-against wishes-they proved, like Beria wrote later"enemies of soviet rule with no hopes of improvement".
According to Kowalski W. T. Walka dyplomatyczna o piejpse Polski w Europie (1939 – 1945) the idea of formation of the Polish army loyal to the government of Sikorski on the territory of SU was initiated by Soviet side in May 1940 through a Soviet journalist who talked about that with Sikorski. Early in June 1940 Sikorski placed to the British Foreign Office the memorandum in which he agreed to cooperate with the Soviet side in formation of Polish Army on the territory of SU, agreed to let the Soviet troops to pass through Polish territory in the war against Germany and also agreed to discuss some territorial concessions from Poland in favor of the SU. Under the pressure of some of his people Sikorski recalled the memo.
Reference is taken from: В. Парсаданова. К истории Катынского дела в сборнике: Архивы раскрывают тайны. Политиздат 1991

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Post by Serus » 29 Jul 2005 22:37

Karman wrote:
Andreas wrote: Molobo's post is very clearly in line with the current knowledge outlined by reputable sources such as e.g. the UK FCO, as a quick Google search using the term 'Katyn Massacre' will show. You are challenging the historical consensus. The burden is on you to provide the evidence if you want to rewrite history.
I beg your pardon. Molobo's post is in line with the English speaking audience raised on the Western works. In Russia it is very different. Please understand that from our perspective we are not rewriting the history but you are. And thus you have to provide the evidence. So far nobody has. If the Western audience accepted the conclusions of the German investigation Russians based their judgements on the conclusions of the investigation performed by Burdenko. I think we can presume that both committees were bias. To find the truth the joint Soviet-Polish committee was formed under Gotrbi. I think that if such a committee were formed under Brezhnev everybody of our opponents would have siad that it were bias. For no reason (and I think that this is Rarog's and mine point) it is taken per granted that the committee under Gorbi (from Russian side headed by notorious Yakovlev) was neutral. Well yet that committee has discovered nothing. They still are sure that Russians killed those people (at least more than 10 thousand) but do not know who, how and after whose order. What makes you to believe that Russians did it after all? Their letters to families, newspapers found in their pockets and others constitute collateral evidence and can be easily contested(as Sean-Lamb showed it). Those people could have been expatriated to the German occupation zone and thus their correspondence to home stopped and newspapers and letters from year 1940 could have been put into their pockets and so on and so forth. On the other hand both German made bullets and cords they were tied are just excluded form the case. The "coogle-society" say that could not NKVD people use those bullets and cords? There was a chance! So Russians did it. Anyway, Smolensk NKVD archive is in US let them produce the ultimate evidence that Russians did it. There is none.

That said the work of Soviet-Polish joint committee finished up in the conclusion of Savenkov's investigation. Savenkov said that Soviets are responsible for 18 hundred (I am saying of that to answer Molobo's continuous claims). But Savenkov added that according to the investigation that responsibility was not equal to the responsibility for genocide and even a war crime.
This is pointless - all this was answered one or more time in in the thread.

I ask the moderators to consider closing this discussion, we can read the same arguments and counter-arguments over and over - nothing new is shoving from some time... (off topic discussions not included) just repeating the same ones ad nauseam.

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Post by Rarog » 08 Aug 2005 12:16

Update:

According to the Polish source posted below it turns out that those 1803 Polish officers Savenkov mentioned were not murdered, but were trialed by "troika" special tribunals, found guilty and [presumably] executed.
W toku śledztwa ustalono z całą pewnością, że w wyniku decyzji "trójki" zginęło 1803 obywateli polskich, z czego udało się zidentyfikować 22.

http://www.nowe-panstwo.pl/005_2005_mie ... storia.htm
However, I'm reading Savenkov statements again and again and I don't see any affirmation that the death of those 1803 Polish officers was caused by NKVD bullets.

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Post by Qvist » 08 Aug 2005 12:23

Rarog;

It would be helpful if you could offer that (as well as future) quotes in some sort of English translation, as only a small minority of the members master Polish (which I presume this is?).

cheers

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Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005 12:39

According to the Polish source posted below it turns out that those 1803 Polish officers Savenkov mentioned were not murdered, but were trialed by "troika" special tribunals, found guilty and [presumably] executed.
Ekhem.
It doesn't say that.
W toku śledztwa ustalono z całą pewnością, że w wyniku decyzji "trójki" zginęło 1803 obywateli polskich, z czego udało się zidentyfikować 22.
During the trial it was confirmed with all certainity, that due to decisions of "three" 1803 polish citizens perished from which 22 were identified.

You also missed the fragment:
Na początku marca 1940 roku zgodnie z wynikami śledztwa sprawy karne zostały przekazane do rozpatrzenia organowi pozasądowemu - "trójce", która rozpatrzyła sprawy karne dotyczące 14 542 obywateli polskich (10 710 osób na terytorium RSFRS, 3832 - na terytorium USRS), uznała ich za winnych przestępstwa przeciwko państwu i podjęła decyzję o ich rozstrzelaniu.
In the begining of March 1940, according to the results of invistigation penal issues were transfered to decide to organ outside court system-"three" which decided penal issues of 14 542 polish citizens(10 710 on territory of RSRS. 3832 on territory of USRS), declered them guilty of crimes against the state and made decision to execute them by shooting.
Last edited by Molobo on 08 Aug 2005 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Serus » 08 Aug 2005 12:41

Yes it is in Polish.
The problem with all this discussion is the character of Savenkow statemenet. It was made for Russian press - no official written documents were presented to the public AFAIK.
What's worse no one here has presented the full text of the statement - only fragments probably taken out of context - i was unable to find the full text in English or Polish - only press articles with commentaries ABOUT the statetment, maybe it can be found in Russian - i would like to see a translation of it (or at least a link to Russian version of full statement).
Anyway all this was said on a press conference - hardly a good material to discuss the results of investigation. I would gladly see a written document - but i didnt see any made public.
Last edited by Serus on 08 Aug 2005 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

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