Katyn Massacre Documents

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 00:30

Kajtmaz -- Don't worry about it. It took me about 45 minutes of looking to figure it out, too, and it wasn't very easy. Hopefully I got it right -- I sent fellow-moderator Art a PM asking him to check my post on the Russian State Archives for accuracy, so I can make any necessary corrections.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 11:52

But now (not only the text) but exact copies (with handwritten remarks) are exposed on a site of state Archive.
All the handwritten remarks have been available at b/w copies. But it's a good thing the documents are now at an official state site.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Art » 29 Apr 2010 12:33

The link on rusarchives doesn't want to open, but as far as I understand the copies of the same documents were available online on other web sources previously. See:
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=6
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=26
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=43
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I didn't fully understand the state archives controversy. The RGASPI (where the originals of the documents discussed ares kept) is managed by the Russian State Archival Agency (Rosarkhiv), information on this archive (including, for example, the lists of declassified documents can be found on www.rusarchives.ru . In fact very few reference information on this archive is available on its official site www.rgaspi.ru, they didn't even have up-to-date e-mail address and contact phones. The very words "Russian state archive" can be understood in two ways, first as a proper noun, so it's the State Archive of the Russian Federation (GARF), second as a generic noun for all state owned archives including those managed by Rosarkhiv.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 12:36

> The link on rusarchives doesn't want to open

It opens but slowly and rarely ;)

> but as far as I understand the copies of the same documents were available online on other web sources previously

Of course. Just be warned that this is a Katyn denial site.

Also, there is no the "archives controversy". Rosarkhiv is indeed not an archive, it's an agency that supervises federal archives. Apparently some Western journalists didn't get the difference.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 29 Apr 2010 12:48

So there's nothing new here.

What do Katyn deniers in Russia say about all these ? Are there many ?

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 12:53

Well, read any Holocaust denial book and you will have a correct impression of Katyn deniers, with the only exception that they don't deny the massacre at Smolensk as such, they simply blame it on the Germans (they differ on whether anything happened at Kalinin and Kharkov).

In regard to these very well-known published-long-ago documents their position is simple - they're fakes. You can look at the first pages of this thread and you'll see some of their pseudo-arguments.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Art » 29 Apr 2010 13:05

Chinaski1917 wrote: What do Katyn deniers in Russia say about all these ?
They say that the Politburo decree of 5 March is a fake because it's printed on the form from 1930s, that the fourth page of Beria's memorandum is published on another typewriter than the other three and is therefore a fake. A lot of digging in minor details

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 13:26

Yep. And they always get these details wrong, and make claims out of thin air.

> They say that the Politburo decree of 5 March is a fake because it's published on the form from 1930s

Actually the paper form for the _excerpt_ from this decision (not the decision itself) is from 1930s. This is not an argument since such forms were used even as late as 1941, see http://ru-katyn.livejournal.com/tag/lin ... -poletov-1

> that the fourth page of Beria's memorandum is published on another typewriter than the other three and is therefore a fake

Of course one wonders how the fact that it was typed on another typewriter proves anything. But this is the sort of argumentation that you can expect from any denier. Holocaust deniers' arguments in regard to the German documents are a mirror image.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 13:50

Art -- Thanks very much for the clarification!

Sergey Romanov -- Welcome back!

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 29 Apr 2010 14:17

Sergey Romanov has a done a great job answering to Katyn deniers.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 29 Apr 2010 23:14

Do we have any other evidence that Gustav Genschow & Co exported 7,65 bullets in Baltic states and eastern europe and Soviet Union except the presidents testimony in the US committe in 1952 ?

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 30 Apr 2010 02:10

Chinaski1917 -- I'm sure there's more information out there, but I don't plan to look for it.

For interested readers -- See the related discussion at:

German ammo at Katyn forest
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41962

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 30 Apr 2010 10:59


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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 11:24

Russia Today should know better than writing this pile of crap:
Russia's archive agency has published on its website copies of previously top-secret documents that show the massacre of Poles in Katyn was approved at the highest level in the Soviet Union.
They're also clueless about "officers":
In total, over 20,000 Polish officers perished during the purges.
Actually about 8000 officers were murdered then. Kudryashov's comment is a ray of sanity in an otherwise ignorant piece.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 30 Apr 2010 12:00

"Actually about 8000 officers were murdered then. "

the rest ? what where they ?

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