Katyn Massacre Documents

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 12:10

Servicemen, policemen etc.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by jola » 30 Apr 2010 19:08

Sergey Romanov wrote:Servicemen, policemen etc.
By etcetera you mean a good portion of a nation's elite and a sizable portion of the officer corps. At about the same time the Einsatzgruppen also targeted "servicemen" on their side.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 20:45

jola wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:Servicemen, policemen etc.
By etcetera you mean a good portion of a nation's elite and a sizable portion of the officer corps. At about the same time the Einsatzgruppen also targeted "servicemen" on their side.
Not sure what you're trying to say. And given your mention of the officer corps apparently you didn't understand the point I was making re:the number of officers among the victims.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by David Thompson » 09 May 2010 21:06

Russia gives Poland long-sought Katyn files
By JIM HEINTZ (AP) – 1 day ago

MOSCOW — Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Saturday turned over scores of volumes from an investigation into the Katyn massacre to his Polish counterpart, a move underlining Moscow's new willingness to repair long-troubled relations with Warsaw.

The World War II massacre of some 20,000 Polish officers and other prominent citizens by Soviet secret police has been an issue that soured relations between the countries for decades.

After decades of blaming the 1940 massacre on invading Nazi troops, the Soviet Union in 1990 acknowledged responsibility, part of Mikhail Gorbachev's glasnost initiatives. But officials refused to refer to it as a genocide attempt — a designation that Poland had sought because international law generally considers that genocide has no statue of limitations.

The Soviet Union began a criminal investigation the same year, but it was closed in 2004. The chief military prosecutor later said the case was closed because the killings were not found to be genocide.

The 67 volumes that Medvedev turned over to acting Polish President Bronislaw Komorowski are files from that investigation, Russian news agencies said. Polish historians have agitated for access to the case files, and Medvedev indicated there was information to come.

"Work on the criminal case, including the declassifying of material, will be continued by my order," Medvedev was quoted as saying by the state news agency RIA Novosti.

Komorowski expressed gratitude.

"The Katyn crime, the Katyn lie, is a stumbling block between our countries. The truth about Katyn is an ordeal experienced jointly by both Poland and Russia. It may serve as a good basis for the further development of relations between our countries," he said according to the ITAR-Tass news agency.

Medvedev presented the Katyn volumes on the day before Victory Day, when Russia will have massive, solemn commemorations of the 65th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany. The move could bolster respect for Russia fitful attempts to come to grips with its bloody Soviet legacy even as it passionately proclaims the valor and sacrifice of its troops and people in World War II.

Katyn inadvertently drew world attention a month ago when Polish President Lech Kaczynski, his wife and 94 other Poles died in a plane crash in Russia while coming to attend a Katyn commemoration.

The plane crashed April 10 as it was coming in for a landing in Smolensk in heavy fog. Preliminary investigation details appear to point at pilot error, but it remains unclear why the plane attempted to land in such poor conditions.

Medvedev told Komorowski on Saturday that final investigation results will be made public.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... AD9FIMEHG0

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by bf109 emil » 10 May 2010 09:00

MOSCOW — Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Saturday turned over scores of volumes from an investigation into the Katyn massacre to his Polish counterpart, a move underlining Moscow's new willingness to repair long-troubled relations with Warsaw.
David... although it maybe to quick a question to ask, but has there been any say as to when historians can debate these volumes and seek as to the validity or accuracy of these volumes, as to investigations which IMHO had to be done under the Stalin control of the USSR?

Thanks

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 May 2010 00:04

bf109 emil wrote:
MOSCOW — Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Saturday turned over scores of volumes from an investigation into the Katyn massacre to his Polish counterpart, a move underlining Moscow's new willingness to repair long-troubled relations with Warsaw.
David... although it maybe to quick a question to ask, but has there been any say as to when historians can debate these volumes and seek as to the validity or accuracy of these volumes, as to investigations which IMHO had to be done under the Stalin control of the USSR?

Thanks
I'm not sure what you mean by "debating" these volumes. Judging by what Natalya Lebedeva told me, they contain Burdenko commission's materials (which are openly available in GARF), materials about the exhumations in 1990s, interrogations done by the Russian prosecutors in 1990s and some such stuff. I don't see what is there to "debate", some of these materials have been studied (the Burdenko stuff; see Lebedeva's article in one of the last Zeszyty Katynskie), some would be interesting to look at (the 1990s investigations). But "debate"? What exactly? The reliability of the Commision's Katyn materials? Who accepts it except for Stalinist/nationalist nuts?

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bf109 emil
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by bf109 emil » 11 May 2010 20:21

I'm not sure what you mean by "debating" these volumes. Judging by what Natalya Lebedeva told me, they contain Burdenko commission's materials (which are openly available in GARF), materials about the exhumations in 1990s, interrogations done by the Russian prosecutors in 1990s and some such stuff. I don't see what is there to "debate", some of these materials have been studied (the Burdenko stuff; see Lebedeva's article in one of the last Zeszyty Katynskie), some would be interesting to look at (the 1990s investigations). But "debate"? What exactly?
yes debate...as to validity of the findings of the 67 volumes accuracy...as
The 67 volumes that Medvedev turned over to acting Polish President Bronislaw Komorowski are files from that investigation, Russian news agencies said. Polish historians have agitated for access to the case files, and Medvedev indicated there was information to come.
what further information is to come and are these files the HOLY GRAIL as the actions and definite conclusions 100% accuracy assured of the Katyn massacre and the end all conclusions...Debate, yes as IMHO this and the findings will be debated for accuracy, authentic and absolute truth? Debated the same way no more or no less as per say another powerful nation released documents and findings of an atrocity they might have committed to another nation and assume the recipents of said documents would not debate or question the guilty nations conclusions or findings...

But hey, if Poland's Historian and her public finds these volumes, works and explanation to be 100% accurate and without a reason of doubt or questions raised, then sure a debate isn't necessary or would curtail...but will they?

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 12 May 2010 12:44

I'm not sure what you mean by "validity of the findings of the 67 volumes accuracy". If you mean conclusions based on these and other volumes, then you still cannot debate these, since they're stupidly classified (judging by the info from the "Memorial" society's A. Guryanov, the (classified) conclusion by the prosecutor's office actually names only 4 people as responsible - Beria, Kobulov, Merkulov and Bashtakov, so (if this is true) it is a priori slanted and incorrect).

If you mean the accuracy of the data, then again, what is there to debate? The Burdenko commission's data is unreliable, as was established long ago. The accuracy of the Russian investigators' data showing the falseness of the Extraordinary commission's conclusions is not generally in doubt. The accuracy of the early 1990s exhumations is not in doubt too, especially as the Polish side actually took part in these. So again, what is there to debate? What specific issues?

Also, what does that have to do with "definite conclusions 100% accuracy assured of the Katyn massacre"? The definite conclusions about the Katyn massacre were reached largely without these volumes and thus do not really depend on them. So I still don't understand what the issue is.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by jola » 12 May 2010 16:24

although it maybe to quick a question to ask, but has there been any say as to when historians can debate these volumes and seek as to the validity or accuracy of these volumes, as to investigations which IMHO had to be done under the Stalin control of the USSR?
There is some confusion here. The 67 volumes handed to the Polish side are part of the 1990-2004 Russian investigation. There are 183 volumes altogether of this investigation. 116 volumes were handed over under Yeltsin, and now 67 last week. These 67 volumes are known to Polish historians as they were given accesss to them in 2005 but they could not make copies. The rest are clasified. The Polish side was expecting to see something new but that did not happen because of the State secrets stamp. They will have to be declasified which was metioned last week by Russia's president. These remaining 49 volumes are what the Polish side has been waiting on and still is. They may contain what is termed the 'Byelorussian List," the fate of about 3700 officers not revealed in the declasified docs. So, far I have not heard of any issues of document validity.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 12 May 2010 16:35

jola wrote:
although it maybe to quick a question to ask, but has there been any say as to when historians can debate these volumes and seek as to the validity or accuracy of these volumes, as to investigations which IMHO had to be done under the Stalin control of the USSR?
There is some confusion here. The 67 volumes handed to the Polish side are part of the 1990-2004 Russian investigation. There are 183 volumes altogether of this investigation. 116 volumes were handed over under Yeltsin, and now 67 last week. These 67 volumes are known to Polish historians as they were given accesss to them in 2005 but they could not make copies. The rest are clasified. The Polish side was expecting to see something new but that did not happen because of the State secrets stamp. They will have to be declasified which was metioned last week by Russia's president. These remaining 49 volumes are what the Polish side has been waiting on and still is. They may contain what is termed the 'Byelorussian List," the fate of about 3700 officers not revealed in the declasified docs. So, far I have not heard of any issues of document validity.
You're confused. 116+67=183. The 116 volumes are the volumes still classified, not "49 volumes". No volumes were officially sent under Yeltsin (though unofficially much material was shared).

Whether the Belorussian list still exists is debatable. If it does, the copies could be in Belarusian KGB archives and/or in TsA FSB. Then again, it is possible that it was destroyed. It is certainly not to be found in the 116 volumes since the materials from FSB were transferred to GVP under Yablokov and Tretetsky, and they both obviously don't know anything about this list (cf. Yablokov et al.'s book "Katynskij sindrom").

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 12 May 2010 16:41

Also, the Belorussian list would not contain "the fate of about 3700 officers". First of all, it would say nothing about their fate (we actually know what their fate was, so it's not such an pressing issue in the first place). Why do I say this? Well, because we actually have the Ukrainian list. All it has are the names (incl. patronymics), dates of birth and numbers in the transport lists. Not even the place of execution.

Second, they were not "officers" (though maybe some of them were).

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by jola » 12 May 2010 17:11

Thanks for straightening that out with the volumes. Anyway, despite all the recent talk of good will between Poland and Russia, nothing new has been revealed.

Importamt issues remain:

From an Appeal by the Memorial Society to President Dmitry Medvedev of the Russian Federation regarding the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre:


“The closing of the investigation into Katyn, the classifying of the case materials as secret, the grossly inadequate legal assessment made by the Main Military Prosecutor’s office, and the refusal to acknowledge those shot dead as victims of political repression, are perceived by public opinion, both at home and abroad, as a refusal to advance towards the truth – a rejection of a process that began in the 1990s. There have been attempts to revive the Stalinist, falsified version of events, not only in the tabloid press, but also from the rostrum of parliament. As a result, the shadow of the crimes and lies perpetrated by the Stalinist regime falls on the Russia of today…” - from Memorial's appeal to President Dmitry Medvedev.
Respected Mr. President, in this connection we urge you to use your authority to support the following urgent measures:

1. The rescinding of the decision of the Interdepartmental Commission for the Protection of State Secrets dated 22nd December 2004 regarding the classification of materials of the ‘Katyn’ criminal investigation №159.

2. The resumption of the criminal investigation into the Katyn case, with the aim of identification in accordance with legal procedure of all individuals who were victims of execution, both prisoners of war and detainees; establishing (in conjunction with the prosecutorial authorities of Ukraine and Belarus) the places of burial of those executed who were prisoners held in jails in western Ukraine and western Belarus; identification in accordance with legal procedure of all those guilty, including those who took the decision to shoot Polish prisoners of war and other convicts, as well as those who organized and carried out this criminal operation at all levels of authority, by means of an accurate and complete legal qualification of the crimes committed, in accordance with the norms of both Russian and international law.

3. Individual rehabilitation, in accordance with Russian law on the rehabilitation of victims of political repression, of all those who were shot by decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of 5th March 1940.
Making the materials of the Katyn case secret clearly violates the current Russian law on state secrets, which does not permit evidence about violations of human and civic rights and freedoms to be made secret, as well as breaches of the law by public authorities and their officials.

Despite this, the Main Military Prosecutor’s Office and the Inter-Departmental Commission for the Protection of State Secrets refuse, to this day, to revoke their decision regarding the classification of these materials.

To this day, the Main Military Prosecutor’s Office refuses to enforce the current Russian law on rehabilitation of victims of political repression, arguing, in the face of the evidence, that the political motive, and even the very fact of the shooting, in relation to each individual prisoner of war, cannot be ascertained.

Using confidentiality as a pretext, the Main Military Prosecutor’s Office has refused to name those whom it found guilty, stating later merely that they were “individual persons from among the leadership of the Soviet NKVD,” whose actions, in accordance with Article 193-17 (paragraph ‘b’) of the 1926 Penal Code of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, are qualified as “exceeding their authority with serious consequences in the presence of particularly aggravating circumstances.”
http://www.rightsinrussia.info/home/hro ... l-on-katyn

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Sergey Romanov » 12 May 2010 17:24

jola wrote:Thanks for straightening that out with the volumes. Anyway, despite all the recent talk of good will between Poland and Russia, nothing new has been revealed.
That much is true. Hopefully, the Russian side will be more forthcoming in the future, with all the talks about reconciliation. The Russian state needs to officially rehabilitate the Polish victims and to declassify the rest of the criminal case volumes - and to re-open the case to reach the conclusion that actually follows the facts and not political whims of Putin's regime.

And I'm actually sure that FSB/APRF archives still have quite a lot of material to share. E.g. recently the Ukrainian SBU declassified the documents about graves in Kharkov - turns out the local children found these graves in 1960s, local KGB learned about this, performed an internal investigation (confirming the Soviet guilt along the way - as the perpetrators actually told about the Polish POWs shot in 1940) and proposed to destroy the graves (they failed and the graves were exhumed in 1990s by Andrzej Kola's team). These reports are the carbon copies of the reports that went to Moscow - to Andropov et al. So the original reports should still be in Moscow, yet they were never revealed.

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Kajtmaz » 04 Jun 2010 11:30

? forged "documents" ?
http://www.katyn.ru/index.php?go=News&in=view&id=196

"Viktor Iliukhin, Sergei Strygin and Vladislav Shved examine documents and special devices for preparing forged documents":

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"Blank forms, seals, and facsimiles used in the preparation of forged documents":

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"Images of imprints of seals, stamps and facsimiles, used in the preparation of forged documents":

Image

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Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Chinaski1917 » 04 Jun 2010 11:41

What exactly are you claiming ?

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