Katyn Massacre Documents

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2559
Joined: 27 Jan 2004 01:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by henryk » 10 Jun 2010 20:11

I was referring to the official government list as noted:
from: http://www.katedrapolowa.pl/ofiary.php? ... =&miejsce=
Rada Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa (Council for the Preservation of Monuments of Struggle and Martyrdom) is the only institution providing information on the list of people whose names were included in the so-called Katyn List and Ukrainian Katyn List.
Rada Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa
00-926 Warszawa
ul. Wspólna 2
tel. 22 628 45 04
http://www.radaopwim.gov.pl
e-mail: [email protected]
The radaopwim list has more information than the katedrapolowa list.
http://www.radaopwim.gov.pl/static_arti ... uote]Listy Katyńskie
Księga Cmentarna Polskiego Cmentarza Wojennego:
Katyń
Charków
Miednoje Tom I
Miednoje Tom II
Bykownia

Pdf page 189 for Katyn Cemetery. There are two more Dobrzyński names
http://www.radaopwim.gov.pl/media/pliki ... _Katyn.pdf
Por. Eugeniusz DOBRZYŃ SKI s. Juliana i Julianny z Flisowskich, ur.
15 XI 1905 w Tajdze na Syberii. ............................
Ppor. rez. Bolesław DOCZYŃSKI s. Franciszka i Stanisławy z Kowalskich,
ur. 16 III 1912 w Skierniewicach. ..........................
[/quote]
Also on: http://www.katedrapolowa.pl/ofiary.php? ... =&miejsce=
if you click on "zobacz tabliczkę" you will see the two different plaques for the two Karols. I presume there was sufficient information available to establish there were two Karols.

dpast32
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: 20 Mar 2003 19:27
Location: USA

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents & Question ?

Post by dpast32 » 10 Jul 2023 13:37

Hello Gentlemen, I have a question which perhaps someone here who happens to be quite knowledgeable regarding both the Katyn Forest Massacre, & the particular weapon alleged to have been used by the NKVD to carry out their macabre tasks. I recently viewed a French made Documentary about the Katyn actions, & it made reference to the NKVD's preference for German Walther Pistols for this particular 'work'. However, I have read, although I'm afraid I can't recall exactly where, that the Katyn Murders were perpetrated by Vasily Mikhailovich Blokhin, a Soviet NKVD Major General who's chosen weapons were the Belgian FN Model 1906, 6.35mm Pistols, several of which were used in rotation to prevent any malfunctions from over use. Therewith is my question ? Can anyone here confirm my information as to the particular make, model, & caliber of weapon used to perform their horrific task ? As an 'Addendum' to the above, I have also read that the weapon[s] utilized were according to IIRC, a Walther, although not an PP or PPK Model, but rather a Walther Model 2, in 6.35mm ? I could have sworn it was an FN / Browning M-1906, 6.35mm, but I could of course be wrong on this point ? ANY related information, & or comments will be very much appreciated. THANK YOU !!

Best, Dom P.
Last edited by dpast32 on 10 Jul 2023 17:32, edited 1 time in total.

Globalization41
Member
Posts: 1447
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 02:52
Location: California

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Globalization41 » 10 Jul 2023 14:28

On page 334 of Stalin, The Court of the Red Tsar, by Simon Sebag Montefiore, one fellow named Blokhin shot 7,000 POWs (suspected of Polish nationalism) in 28 days on night shift. His quota was 250 per night. He wore a butcher's leather apron and cap. He worked in a padded, soundproofed hut fabricated by the NKVD and used a German Walther pistol. ... Blokhin himself was to have been executed sometime before Katyn (he had worked under Yezhov I think), but Stalin crossed his name off the list on the grounds that the U.S.S.R. needed more troops willing to do necessary dirty work.

Globalization41.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2606
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by gebhk » 10 Jul 2023 16:11

Hi dpast 22

Can't provide informed comment but according to most of the texts I have come across on this, Blokhin was in fact the originator of the idea to use Walther 2 .25 ACP pistols (thought to be more reliable when used intensively) and personally owned a suitcase-full of them. The .25 ACP (6.35x16mm) round was used for a large number of handguns, the first European one being the FN 1905/1906 (patent/manufacture) hence, perhaps, the confusion? The reason given for the better reliability of the Walther was that it was less prone to overheating. Another advantage, according to some, was that it had less recoil which did not cause the severe wrist pain that developed rapidly with prolonged use of Soviet-made weapons such as the 7.62×38mmR Nagant M1895- albeit these too were used to a limited extent in Kalinin (according to Tokarev). The plausible deniability argument oft cited, I suspect, is more of a hindsight justification.

To be precise, Blokhin was responsible for the murders carried out at No 2 Soviet Street in Kalinin (now Tver) whose victims were buried in Mednoye and was not involved AFAIK with the murders in Katyn Forest - albeit the whole NKVD operation is generally referred to as the Katyn Murders or the Katyn Crime after the first mass graves discovered by the Germans in 1943, which adds to the confusion.

Peter
Financial supporter
Posts: 4778
Joined: 24 Nov 2002 11:13
Location: Europe

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Peter » 10 Jul 2023 16:32

Globalization41 wrote:
10 Jul 2023 14:28
On page 334 of Stalin, The Court of the Red Tsar, by Simon Sebag Montefiore, one fellow named Blokhin shot 7,000 POWs (suspected of Polish nationalism) in 28 days on night shift. His quota was 250 per night. He wore a butcher's leather apron and cap. He worked in a padded, soundproofed hut fabricated by the NKVD and used a German Walther pistol. ... Blokhin himself was to have been executed sometime before Katyn (he had worked under Yezhov I think), but Stalin crossed his name off the list on the grounds that the U.S.S.R. needed more troops willing to do necessary dirty work.

Globalization41.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

Not my favourite source but you will find him here.

dpast32
Member
Posts: 150
Joined: 20 Mar 2003 19:27
Location: USA

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by dpast32 » 10 Jul 2023 17:32

THANK YOU Guys, As always I appreciate everyone's input. I truly wish I could remember exactly where I obtained the information as to the FN 6.35's use, but based upon my recollections, 'I believe' it had to have been around 1995 +/-, within what was at the time a newly released publication titled, IIRC, 'Katyn', possibly along with perhaps a subtitle included. ( I seem to recall it had an all black from cover, or at least the edition I had. ) Sadly, I decided to return the Book after only having it for a few days, as the Book Store had received a few new Books which I needed much more than the Katyn Book. ( Please keep in mind, that at that time, we tended to perform most of our research sans Internet, as it was just starting to become available, & surely wasn't the WWW we're all used to now !! ) Well, apparently, based upon a consensus of opinion, at least we can 'theoretically' assume the 'work' was performed by a Handgun of German manufacture, & of 6.35mm caliber. [ .25 ACP ] And in closing, in regards to the KDVD's Chief Executioner, Vasily Mikhailovich Blokhin, he is 'alleged' to have died in 1955, due either to Suicide, or Heart Attack, depending upon which particular source you tend to believe. It still amazes me today that the overwhelming amount of callous executions perpetrated by Stalin's minions is, without doubt amongst the most horrific & senseless criminal acts ever performed by man. Between the Nazis & W NKVD, it's a wonder that there's anyone left in Europe !!

Best, Dom P.

Globalization41
Member
Posts: 1447
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 02:52
Location: California

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by Globalization41 » 10 Jul 2023 23:14

Thanks Peter for the Wikipedia link on Blokhin. Very chilling. He worked ten-hour shifts and was a workaholic. His kill count averaged one per three minutes. It might not be the best source, as you say Peter, but it's the first detailed account of Blokhin I've seen. ... I often follow WWII events from contemporary news reports. The unreported Katyn Massacres occurred in April 1940. The Finns had just won their freedom by fighting the Red Army to a stalemate and peace agreement. Stalin did get some strategic bases. It's possible Finland's military officers might have suffered the same fate as the Polish officers did had the Soviet invasion of Finland been successful. The Finns made it too expensive for Stalin to conquer. ... Stalin had other worries. Hitler's invasion of Norway blocked possible British deployments to Scandinavia. This was ok for Stalin, who, for logical reasons, considered the British more dangerous than Hitler. ... The invasion of Finland had turned out to be a propaganda blunder for Stalin. At the time, Stalin also hoped to establish a land bridge to the Turkish Straits. ... It seemed possible worldwide in April 1940 that Stalin would join the Axis. ... The war along the French front was still on winter-weather hold. Stalin assumed the upcoming European war would sap both sides as happened in WWI. Meanwhile, he could consolidate his foothold in Eastern Europe.

Also:

Katyn -- the 1943 O'Malley report

Globalization41.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2606
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: Katyn Massacre Documents

Post by gebhk » 11 Jul 2023 08:38

died in 1955, due either to Suicide, or Heart Attack, depending upon which particular source you tend to believe.
As I understand it, the heart attack version is in his medical records. The suicide version is from Tokariev's evidence, given in 1991. Following Stalin's death, Blokhin retired in 1953, was stripped of his general's rank in 1954 and was dead in 1955. Given it was the Soviet Union, many consider his demise not a little coincidental and convenient.

What is ironic (if that is the right word), is that his remains rest in the 'avenue of the meritorious' of the Donskoye Cemetary in Moscow under a large and well-kept gravestone depicting, inter alia, him in his NKVD uniform, the grave apparently still decorated regularly with fresh flowers by his 'fans'.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/WJ4FYN/grave- ... WJ4FYN.jpg

Ironic because in the very same cemetary many thousands of his and his colleague's victims, murdered in the nearby Lubianka Prison, were cremated (in a crematorium noted to be of Blokhin's own design) and dumped in a pit now marked with a symbolic memorial
https://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpre ... er-one.jpg

Both are tourist attractions.

One can only imagine the outrage if, say, Rudolf Hoss was buried in similar splendour, with his image in SS uniform prominently displayed, near the site of the crematoria in the grounds of Auschwitz.....

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”