Katyn Massacre Documents

[Rarog]

Supreme Russian Military prosecutor Mr. Savenkov announced that the criminal case initiated by the Military Prosecutor’s Office with regard to the massacre of Polish POW in various Soviet prisons and POW camps in 1940 internationally known as the Katyn case was over in March this year. The Russian Military Prosecutor Savenkov announced that the examination proved that the total number of executed people made 1800 people (22 of them were identified) and that local NKVD authorities bear all the responsibility for the massacre.

I am mentioning this announcement of Mr. Savenkov because the Russian military prosecutor indirectly recognized and confirmed that the group of documents found in the Soviet archives and then published in Poland in 1992 and in Russia in 1993 were bogus.

Well done, Karman!

Even thou in the light of Mukhin's writings the affair looked very dubious to me, the documents in question was the decisive point and I tended to agree with the official version. Now as the documents lose any credibility the debate shall be re-opened, and Mukhin's arguments shall be dealt with and not simply neglected with referral to the "Politburo documents" and Gorby confession.

[Rarog]

There is no doubt among historians that Katyn was the work of Soviet Union.

Soviet historians always denied it was the work of the SU, and there is an ongoing discussion about the Katyn controversy in Russian literature.

So your statement is false.

Besides the leaders of Soviet Union admited the responsibilty of their state.

Are they the authority on the subject?

[Rarog]

Thanks, David.

BTW, needless to say, no such massacre is mentioned in EG reports for that period. And EG B was stationed in Smolensk!

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=50368

And who is so stupid to believe that the Nazi officials would leave the task of liquidating thousands of Poles to the construction battalion, or signal regiment, when EG could do it?

Do you mean that EG B was taking vacation by that time? Maybe they were busy slaughtering somebody else?

After all, I gather that most of slaughtering was conducted by regular Wehrmach regiments.

[Molobo]

Are they the authority on the subject?

Since they had both access to documents, and represented the state in question, yes they are.

[Musashi]

Besides the leaders of Soviet Union admited the responsibilty of their state.

Are they the authority on the subject?

So could you tell me why they admitted it? What was their purpose?

[Rarog]

Are they the authority on the subject?

Since they had both access to documents, and represented the state in question, yes they are.

Speaking about access I can hardly imagine Gorby digging up some dodgy documents in an obscure archive dungeon... he-he.

Okey, so when Putin will announce that it were not the Soviets will you keep insisting he's the authority? Access, state in question... No, you won't? Why I'm not surprised?

[Rarog]

So could you tell me why they admitted it? What was their purpose?

What was their purpose when they withdrew the army from Elba to Volga and destroyed one of two super-powers?

Humanitarian purpose, I gather

[Musashi]

Are they the authority on the subject?

Since they had both access to documents, and represented the state in question, yes they are.

Speaking about access I can hardly imagine Gorby digging up some dodgy documents in an obscure archive dungeon... he-he.

Okey, so when Putin will announce that it were not the Soviets will you keep insisting he's the authority?[...]

Vladimir Vladimirovich will not announce there were not the Soviets. He admitted there were the Soviets, he just refused to bring up this matter again and apologize for this "during every meeting with a Polish delegation".
He said something like: "this matter was cleared up and the Soviet authorities and B. Yeltsin apologized for that. Do you expect us to apologize for that by each occasion?"

[Rarog]

Maybe you're right and Vladimir Vladimirovich won't... but how's about Ivan Ivanovich or Petr Petrovich? What if a new president will refuse to admit the Soviet guilt? What will you say?

[Musashi]

Maybe you're right and Vladimir Vladimirovich won't... but how's about Ivan Ivanovich or Petr Petrovich? What if a new president will refuse to admit the Soviet guilt? What will you say?

I would say "Vanya and Pyetia, I will not cry because of that. It's your problem and such a statement does not increase the number of Poles who like Russians, but I would like see what you think about this matter looking at the official national survey"
I would advice them to go to bed earlier and post something tomorrow. It's very late in Russian Federation

[Jan-Hendrik]

Or : Atrocities Deniy'ers will never die out ...

Nationality obojentny !

[Molobo]

What was their purpose when they withdrawed the army from Elba to Volga and destroyed one of two super-powers

Soviet Union was no longer super power at the time.It was innefficient, bankrut, and every nation under its control wanted to be free.I would guess that they wanted to avoid bloodshed, total destruction of economy and many lives.

What if a new president will refuse to admit the Soviet guilt?

We shall look at evidence, documents and statements from objective officials.

[Joseph Salemi]

Anyone who says that the Soviets did not murder thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn forest in 1940 is either living in a dream world, or utterly enslaved to national pride. They are like the Turks who deny the Armenian massacres of 1915, or those Germans who pretend that the Holocaust did not occur.

[PolAntek]

Anyone who says that the Soviets did not murder thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn forest in 1940 is either living in a dream world, or utterly enslaved to national pride. They are like the Turks who deny the Armenian massacres of 1915, or those Germans who pretend that the Holocaust did not occur.

Thank you Joseph - the voice of reason.

I have read this thread with great interest, and in particular the exchange between Sergey Romanov and Karman. Both argue their positions well.

However, the whole argument regarding the Soviet admission of guilt under Gorbachev remains an inconsequential sidebar. They way I see it, arguments from the fringe that cling to the hope that Stalin and his henchmen are innocent of the Katyn crime provide nothing more than an amusing diversion from reality. A temporary smoke screen to obscure the overwhelming weight of evidence contained in the historic record. There are many excellent books and documents penned by respected historians that have all arrived at the same conclusion. (My personal recommendation: "The Crime of Katyn: Facts and Documents")

Are these resources not available in the former Soviet states?

With all due respect, to seriously question Soviet culpability for the murders committed in the Katyn Forest is like arguing that the moon is made of cheese. Frankly, I am astonished that anyone still believes that the Soviets are innocent of this crime.

As though it needs to be said again: The killings were authorized by Stalin, and carried out by the NKVD in the spring of 1940. Research the history with an open mind – and then accept it!

[Sean_Lamb]

Tish - pish.

I could deny Katyn 3 times before breakfast with one hand tied behind my back while reading the newspaper.

Lets see: what I know of Katyn is this
- Bodies unearthed by Germans in Russian zone of Poland after invasion of USSR in 1941. About 4000, although Germans claim 21 000.
- Invite Internation Commission in. Determine that corpses killed in 1940 were Polish officers.
- Soviets win war, hold another Commission, prove bodies killed by german bullets
- Ah ha! Cry Germans, but all those international experts testified how decayed the corpses were. Even the photos prove it.
- Fall of Communism - Documents reveal NKVD order to liquedate Polish elite. Case closed.

OK. Obviously Germany invades Russia, needs to portray itself as saviour of humanity, ergo it needs mass graves (how different, how very different the home life of our own dear hegemonic power, the USA.) But no mass graves - Problemo.

Kein Problem, says Goebbels. We have just whipped the Polish army and we know where the bodies are buried lets dig 'em all up (or the 3000-4000 we can find). Stick 'em all in big pits, bung in a few old newspapers and call in the Red Cross.

Nyet Problem, say the Commissars, we done know what happened, but we hold the site, lets run with the massacre story but blame the Germans. So they dig up all the bodies, find the odd german bullet still lodged in some of the corpses and Joe's your uncle: it was the Germans.

So there you have it, old corpses of Polish soldiers with german ammunition in the Russian occupied zone.

Fall of Communism and the Jews take over (well, naturally the Communists were all Jewish too, but as everything is always a Jewish plot so obviously they must be responsible for this). And they say, mmmm, well we certainly dont want people thinking along the lines of moving bodies around to create upsetting photos - especially with the Balkans wars in full swing (think Racak), lets whip up a few documents, blame it all on Stalin and the NKVD, hurray for the Open Society and the New Russia.

And there you have it.

Easy Peasy.

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