Katyn Massacre Documents

[Qvist]

Sean;

Informed and factual discussion of the evidence pertaining to the Katyn massacre is one thing, inflammatory and glib opinionating is another. Your post adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, and similar efforts in the future will be deleted on sight.

[Karman]

Vladimir Vladimirovich will not announce there were not the Soviets. He admitted there were the Soviets, he just refused to bring up this matter again and apologize for this "during every meeting with a Polish delegation".
He said something like: "this matter was cleared up and the Soviet authorities and B. Yeltsin apologized for that. Do you expect us to apologize for that by each occasion?"

But Savenkov also has not announced that they were not Soviets. He just said that Soviets are responsible for 18 hundred something. So Putin in his appologizes based on these figures. Gorbi in his apologizes based on his good will (though I strongly doubt that he had any will either good or bad). Eltzyn appologizes were based on the documents which are under discussion in this tread.

[Molobo]

Untill Russia relases all the documents the full truth about Allied soldiers from Polish Army murdered by Soviets won't be known anyway.So the discussion is really lacking in resources due the fact that most material remains hidden.

Kein Problem, says Goebbels. We have just whipped the Polish army and we know where the bodies are buried lets dig 'em all up (or the 3000-4000 we can find). Stick 'em all in big pits, bung in a few old newspapers and call in the Red Cross.

Nyet Problem, say the Commissars, we done know what happened, but we hold the site, lets run with the massacre story but blame the Germans. So they dig up all the bodies, find the odd german bullet still lodged in some of the corpses and Joe's your uncle: it was the Germans.

There have been some suspicions in Polish press that the reasons for Russia's unwillingess to relase the documents may come from from the fact that Soviet authorities cooperated in murder actions with German Reich in accordance with treaty signed on 28th September 1939 :
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm

The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:

Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.

Moscow, September 28,1939.

For the Government of the German Retch:

J. RIBBENTROP

By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

W. MOLOTOV

For example of such theory of Soviet Nazi cooperation in murder actions present in Polish media :
http://www.bezuprzedzen.pl/listy/katyn.shtml

[Sven-Eric]

I was thinking of one thing. Does anyone know if the remains of the killed Poles are still buried in the Katyn forest or were they removed to Poland or anywhere else?
Regards,
Sven-Eric

[PolAntek]

I was thinking of one thing. Does anyone know if the remains of the killed Poles are still buried in the Katyn forest or were they removed to Poland or anywhere else?
Regards,
Sven-Eric

The remains are still in the Katyn Forest.

[Sean_Lamb]

Informed and factual discussion of the evidence pertaining to the Katyn massacre is one thing, inflammatory and glib opinionating is another. Your post adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, and similar efforts in the future will be deleted on sight.

Well, its your forum, so obviously you are free do absolutely as you see fit.

I dont think the post was inflammatory, although was intentionally a little glib.
Unless people took offence at what was (I hope) the clearly tongue in check reference to the Jews ruling Russia. If it isnt obviously tongue-in-cheek, let me know and I will edit it out.

The point I was trying to make is atrocity is political capital. Always has been and always will. There have been plenty of other cases with claims where bodies have been moved to create atrocity scenes.

I personally dont think the facts in the end would actually justify that happening at Katyn - presumably autopsy work by the German commission showed people being executed in the traditional (at least for Communists) manner of bullet at the base of the skull.

As I recall, newspapers were found on the bodies that dated them to being alive to the early 1940. So in order to make my scenario work I have to have the Germans planting newspapers on the corpses - and lets be honest does anybody think the Nazis wouldnt do that if they felt it was in their interests? Equallly does anyone think the Stalinists wouldnt manipulate the site in anyway to their advantage?

It is, I believe, a fact that german ammunition was found at the site. Did the NKVD use German ammmunition? Did the Soviets simply invent that claim? Or did they plant the ammo? With Stalinists any or all of those explanations could be true.

One thing for sure, as someone pointed out, there are a lot of bodies buried there

[PolAntek]

As I recall, newspapers were found on the bodies that dated them to being alive to the early 1940. So in order to make my scenario work I have to have the Germans planting newspapers on the corpses - and lets be honest does anybody think the Nazis wouldnt do that if they felt it was in their interests?

First off, the tongue-in-cheek nature of your initial post did not escape me. I've always had an appreciation for Aussie wit.

Re. your subsequent post and the reference to the planting of documents. Of course the clever and opportunistic Nazi's would willingly have manipulated the crime scene to their advantage. However, that was definitely not the case in the Katyn Forest victims. That scenario was conclusively ruled out during the exhumation of the victims.

The corpses on which the dated newspapers, letters, diaries were found were compacted together so tightly and literally glued together by the decomposing body fluids that separating them required a great deal of effort. In many instances they had to be pried apart using picks and other implements. It was obvious that the mass graves had remained untouched since the murders in the spring of 1940.

Cheers,
AJZ

[Rarog]

Maybe you're right and Vladimir Vladimirovich won't... but how's about Ivan Ivanovich or Petr Petrovich? What if a new president will refuse to admit the Soviet guilt? What will you say?

I would say "Vanya and Pyetia, I will not cry because of that. It's your problem and such a statement does not increase the number of Poles who like Russians, but I would like see what you think about this matter looking at the official national survey"

And I thought you'd say "Oh... access, documents, the state in question! That MUST BE true!"

[Rarog]

What was their purpose when they withdrawed the army from Elba to Volga and destroyed one of two super-powers

Soviet Union was no longer super power at the time.It was innefficient, bankrut, and every nation under its control wanted to be free.

Hell, it looks like you're talking about the US.

What if a new president will refuse to admit the Soviet guilt?

We shall look at evidence, documents and statements from objective officials.

And who will decide who is objective and who is not?

[Rarog]

With all due respect, to seriously question Soviet culpability for the murders committed in the Katyn Forest is like arguing that the moon is made of cheese. Frankly, I am astonished that anyone still believes that the Soviets are innocent of this crime.

As though it needs to be said again: The killings were authorized by Stalin, and carried out by the NKVD in the spring of 1940. Research the history with an open mind – and then accept it!

Are you familiar with one of the very basic principles of law: Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

And may I remind you that there was no trial (yet)...

[Molobo]

And may I remind you that there was no trial (yet)

You forgot to add that the reason for this is that russian authorities refused to hand over documents about the case.

[PolAntek]

Are you familiar with one of the very basic principles of law: Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

And may I remind you that there was no trial (yet)...

But of course sir.

I am also familiar with one’s ability to arrive at an opinion and the freedom to voice that opinion. It also happens that this opinion is based on years of study of this particular event.

Trial or no trail, the evidence has been in the public domain for all to evaluate for a very long time. I have objectively done just that. You see, I am not swayed to defend either of the two possible perpetrators of this crime. In fact, in the case of my personal family history, it was the Germans that caused the most suffering and loss to my parents and their families during the war years. So, if anything, I should be more inclined to a pro-Soviet bias.

Is it possible that you may have an underlying bias? Yes, it is a tough question, but one that needs to be answered honestly.

Lastly, my position on this matter is in agreement with virtually all of the printed research issued over the past 60 years – and there is a substantial amount. I recommend that you check it out.

Kindest regards,

A.J. Zawadzki

[Rarog]

And may I remind you that there was no trial (yet)

You forgot to add that the reason for this is that russian authorities refused to hand over documents about the case.

Go to an international court, sue Russia and submit evidence you have. You don't have enough evidence? Your problem. But until court's decision the case stays open.

[Molobo]

But until court's decision the case stays open.

Only legaly. As you pointed out Russia protects those responsible for Katyn Massacre from justice.Historically of course it is known that it was work of the Soviet state.
Btw IPN started its own invistigation to determine exact details of Soviet state's responsibility.

[Molobo]

But until court's decision the case stays open.

Only legaly. As you pointed out Russia protects those responsible for Katyn Massacre from justice.Historically of course it is known that it was work of the Soviet state.
Btw IPN started its own invistigation to determine exact details of Soviet state's responsibility.