Surviving The Gas -- An Option? II

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

Well, frankly I find it rather hard to believe myself. Possibly once or twice -- but a common occurance as to require mercy killing regularly... Errr...

[Hans]

Yes, it seems that the Jewish Sonderkommando in Auschwiz found a child in the gas-chamber whose heart was still beating. It was killed by SS guards, and naturally the cruel sadist Otto Moll is mentioned in this connection.

But as you say, that was unusual and seemed to happen only once or twice in Auschwitz.

According Shlomo Dragon on 10 May 1945 in Poland:

Einmal fanden wir damals in der Gaskammer ein lebendes Kind vor. Es war ganz in eine Daunendecke eingehüllt, welche seinen Kopf vollständig bedeckte. Als man es aus der Decke zog, standen seine Augen offen, und es schien zu leben.

According to Filip Müller on 5 October 1964 in Frankfurt, as quoted in Langbein: Der Auschwitz-Prozess, page 88:

Als wir vom Sonderkommando die Toten aus den Gaskammern herausräumen mußten, war einmal ein Kind dabei, dessen Herz hat noch geschlagen, es war aber ohne Bewußtsein. Das Kind wurde erschossen.

[Xanthro]

I'm afraid your assignment is unprovable.

There is no way to determine if someone survived and had to be shot, or if the guards thought someone survived and had to be shot.

While it's possible a child or even an adult didn't receive enough gas to be killed immediately, the lungs would give out first, then the heart. Anyone with an actual heart beat, could likely move. You could have someone who was crushed by the mass of people, and this was a cause of death, and this person didn't receive enough HCN to be fatal, and this person could have a heart beat, and not be able to move, but this would be exceedingly rare.

What it could also be, is that the body is moving, and what appears to be a heartbeat is a death spasm. To a lay person, the body may appear alive, and a guard may even shot the person thinking he or she is alive, witness may report this, but the person was dead to begin with.

I doubt that doctors came an examined the bodies to determine if any were alive, thus it's left to the guards and inmates to evaulate if the person is dead.

The number of times this is reported to happen is so low that we cannot conclusively determine whether the person was dead or not.

Xanthro

[Dan]

Hi Birgitte, nice to see you again. Remember at Dachau there were no homicidal gassings.

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

You are quite right, Dan, and that too is one reason I suspect this story be made up. However, I think it's fair to assume between us that yes, it is possible that a few times, someone wasn't technically dead at the time the gas chambers of A-B were opened, and a few times a guard perhaps shot someone believing they weren't -- but on the overall, the killing machinery worked almost flawlessly.

[Dan]

With Zyklon, you're out before you hit the floor, but it takes some minutes before you actually die. You can even stand up and walk around if pulled out in time.

We actually did an experiment with Chloropicrin, a WW1 war gas used as a fungicide. How long could you stay in the room as the PPM went up. A chain smoker lasted the longest, and even though he started to vomit, he stayed till 3 times or so the concentration that the other people could stand, so I guess there is an LD50 with HCN as well!

The baby stories are always suspect, though. Some Canadian Jew made a bunch of money for himself by saying he survived 7 gassings as a child.

[Tarpon27]

[...]

EXPOSURE LIMITS

* OSHA PEL

The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for hydrogen cyanide is 10 ppm (11 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m(3))) as an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA) concentration. The OSHA PEL also bears a "Skin" notation, which indicates that the cutaneous route of exposure (including mucous membranes and eyes) contributes to overall exposure [29 CFR 1910.1000, Table Z-1].

* NIOSH REL

The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has established a recommended exposure limit (REL) for hydrogen cyanide of 4.7 ppm (5 mg/m(3)) as a STEL. NIOSH also assigns a "Skin" notation to hydrogen cyanide [NIOSH 1992].

* ACGIH TLV

The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has assigned hydrogen cyanide a ceiling limit value of 4.7 ppm (5 mg/m(3)), which should not be exceeded during any part of the working exposure. The ACGIH also assigns a "Skin" notation to hydrogen cyanide [ACGIH 1994, p. 23].

* Rationale for Limits

The NIOSH limit is based on the risk of thyroid, blood, and respiratory effects [NIOSH 1992].

The ACGIH limit is based on the risk of acute poisoning [ACGIH 1991, p. 776].


HEALTH HAZARD INFORMATION

* Routes of Exposure

Exposure to hydrogen cyanide can occur through inhalation, ingestion, eye or skin contact, and absorption through the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes [Sittig 1991; Rom 1992].

* Summary of toxicology

1. Effects on Animals: Cyanide is a potent and rapidly acting chemical asphyxiant; it prevents tissue utilization of oxygen by inhibiting the tissue enzyme cytochrome oxidase. The organs especially sensitive to cyanide damage are those whose function depends on an adequate supply of oxygen; i.e., the brain and heart [Gosselin 1984]. The 1-minute inhalation LC(50) in dogs is 616 mg/m(3); in rats and mice, the 5-minute inhalation LC(50) values are 484 ppm and 323 ppm, respectively [Sax and Lewis 1989]. The oral LD(50) in the mouse is 3.7 mg/kg [Sax and Lewis 1989]. Animals lethally or sublethally poisoned by cyanides have exhibited optic nerve and retinal damage. Repeated administration of cyanide caused central nervous system lesions involving degeneration of the myelin sheath in rats and monkeys [Grant 1986]. Animals acutely poisoned demonstrate cherry-red blood, agonal hemorrhages on the heart, and congestion and petechial hemorrhage of the lungs and gastrointestinal tract [NLM 1995]. Instilled into the conjunctival sac of the eyes of rabbits, hydrogen cyanide caused death within 3 to 12 minutes after instillation [NLM 1995].

2. Effects on Humans: Hydrogen cyanide can cause rapid death due to metabolic asphyxiation. Death can occur within seconds or minutes of the inhalation of high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide gas. A recent study reports an estimated LC(50) in humans of 3,404 ppm for a 1-minute exposure; other sources report that 270 ppm is fatal after 6 to 8 minutes, 181 ppm after 10 minutes and 135 ppm after 30 minutes [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Cyanide directly stimulates the chemoreceptors of the carotid and aortic bodies, causing hyperpnea. Cardiac irregularities are often noted [Amdur 1991]. Liquid hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen cyanide in aqueous solution [hydrocyanic acid], and the concentrated vapor are all absorbed rapidly through the intact skin and may cause systemic poisoning with little or no irritant effect on the skin itself. The liquid in contact with the eye may cause only local irritation; however, the attendant absorption may be hazardous [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Industrial exposure to hydrogen cyanide solutions has caused dermatitis, itching, scarlet rash, papules, and nose irritation and bleeding. Perforation of the nasal septum has also occurred [NLM 1995]. Workers exposed to hydrogen cyanide at concentrations ranging from 4 to 12 ppm for 7 years showed an increase in symptoms such as headaches, weakness, changes in taste and smell, irritation of the throat, vomiting, effort dyspnea, lacrimation, abdominal colic, precordial pain, and nervous instability [ACGIH 1991]. Workers exposed to low concentrations (not further specified) of hydrogen cyanide have developed enlarged thyroid glands [NLM 1995].

* Signs and symptoms of exposure

1. Acute exposure: Acute exposure to cyanide can result in symptoms including weakness, headache, confusion, vertigo, fatigue, anxiety, dyspnea, and occasionally nausea and vomiting. Respiratory rate and depth are usually increased initially and at later stages become slow and gasping. Coma and convulsions occur in some cases. If cyanosis is present, it usually indicates that respiration has either ceased or has been inadequate for a few minutes. If large amounts of cyanide have been absorbed, collapse is usually instantaneous; unconsciousness; often with convulsions, is followed almost immediately by death [Hathaway et al. 1991].

2. Chronic exposure: Chronic exposure to cyanide can result in symptoms similar to those reported after acute exposure, e.g., weakness, nausea, headache, and vertigo [Hathaway et al. 1991]. Dermatitis, itching, scarlet rash, papules, and severe nose irritation have also been reported [Parmeggiani 1983]. In addition, long-term exposures have produced thyroid changes, including frank goiter [Gosselin 1984]. Only occasionally has reference been made to eye irritation, conjunctivitis, or superficial keratitis developing after chronic exposure to hydrogen cyanide gas [Grant 1986].

[...]

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/healthguid ... ition.html

[Hans]

The baby stories are always suspect, though. Some Canadian Jew made a bunch of money for himself by saying he survived 7 gassings as a child.

Dan,

frankly, I doubt that a piece about an at-least-seven-times-gassing surviver in a Canadian Newspaper from 1993 makes the authentic and credible deposition of Shlomo Dragon and the authentic and credible testimony of Filip Müller in Frankfurt under the eyes of critical judges and 20 SS defendants and their lawyers in general, and the child incident in particular, somehow suspect.

Isn't one incident much more likely than the other? What do you think?

Further, I confess, I doubt you can show that this Canadian Jews made a bunch of money BY SAYING he survived 7 gassings. Can you destroy my scepticism?

Cheers!

[Roberto]

Dan,

frankly, I doubt that a piece about an at-least-seven-times-gassing surviver in a Canadian Newspaper from 1993 makes the authentic and credible deposition of Shlomo Dragon and the authentic and credible testimony of Filip Müller in Frankfurt under the eyes of critical judges and 20 SS defendants and their horde of aggressive lawyers in general, and the child incident in particular, somehow suspect.

I agree with the above, but please take it easy on the attorneys. They were doing their duty - defending their clients to the best of their abilities. So I wouldn't call them a "horde".

Cheers,

Roberto

[Hans]

I agree with the above, but please take it easy on the attorneys. They were doing their duty - defending their clients to the best of their abilities. So I wouldn't call them a "horde".

Hi Roberto!

Yes, you're right. I didn't mean to insult the legal profession. They were just doing their job, and that was to destroy the credibility of witnesses who incriminated their defendants, though some (Dr. Hans Laternser) with very questionable means.

[Roberto]

I agree with the above, but please take it easy on the attorneys. They were doing their duty - defending their clients to the best of their abilities. So I wouldn't call them a "horde".

Hi Roberto!

Yes, you're right. I didn't mean to insult the legal profession. They were just doing their job, and that was to destroy the credibility of witnesses who incriminated their defendants, though some (Dr. Hans Laternser) with very questionable means.

I'm glad the attorneys did their job so well, because if the depositions of the witnesses stood up to their hostile cross-examination another staple "Revisionist" herring (the "you don't cross-examine a survivor" - stuff) plainly comes out as the nonsense that it is.

Tell us more about this Dr. Laternser. What questionable means did he use ?

[Dan]

The baby stories are always suspect, though. Some Canadian Jew made a bunch of money for himself by saying he survived 7 gassings as a child.

Dan,

frankly, I doubt that a piece about an at-least-seven-times-gassing surviver in a Canadian Newspaper from 1993 makes the authentic and credible deposition of Shlomo Dragon and the authentic and credible testimony of Filip Müller in Frankfurt under the eyes of critical judges and 20 SS defendants and their lawyers in general, and the child incident in particular, somehow suspect.

Isn't one incident much more likely than the other? What do you think?

Further, I confess, I doubt you can show that this Canadian Jews made a bunch of money BY SAYING he survived 7 gassings. Can you destroy my scepticism?

Cheers!

Code: Select all

"As an eleven year old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during WW II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas chamber at least six times. Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he managed to survive. 'Maybe children resist better, I don't know', he said in an interview last week. (...) Peer and his sisters, WHO ALL SURVIVED, were cared for by two camp women. After the war, Peer was reunited with his father and his wife." (The Gazette, Montreal, 5 August 1993).

His bood is called "Unforgettable Belsen". I supose we could find out how many copies were sold, and what his royalties were.

I have no doubt that untold thousands of babies were murdered during this particular time frame, with Christian babies being in the vast majority.

[Charles Bunch]

The baby stories are always suspect, though. Some Canadian Jew made a bunch of money for himself by saying he survived 7 gassings as a child.

Dan,

frankly, I doubt that a piece about an at-least-seven-times-gassing surviver in a Canadian Newspaper from 1993 makes the authentic and credible deposition of Shlomo Dragon and the authentic and credible testimony of Filip Müller in Frankfurt under the eyes of critical judges and 20 SS defendants and their lawyers in general, and the child incident in particular, somehow suspect.

Isn't one incident much more likely than the other? What do you think?

Further, I confess, I doubt you can show that this Canadian Jews made a bunch of money BY SAYING he survived 7 gassings. Can you destroy my scepticism?

Cheers!

Code: Select all

"As an eleven year old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during WW II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas chamber at least six times. Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he managed to survive. 'Maybe children resist better, I don't know', he said in an interview last week. (...) Peer and his sisters, WHO ALL SURVIVED, were cared for by two camp women. After the war, Peer was reunited with his father and his wife." (The Gazette, Montreal, 5 August 1993).

His bood is called "Unforgettable Belsen". I supose we could find out how many copies were sold, and what his royalties were.

I have no doubt that untold thousands of babies were murdered during this particular time frame, with Christian babies being in the vast majority.

"Time frame"?

We're not discussing a time frame but the Holocaust. And during the Holocaust the only babies targeted for murder were Jewish babies, and perhaps Gypsy babies.

[Dan]

We're not discussing a time frame but the Holocaust. And during the Holocaust the only babies targeted for murder were Jewish babies, and perhaps Gypsy babies.

But not Slavic "useless eaters"?

[Charles Bunch]

We're not discussing a time frame but the Holocaust. And during the Holocaust the only babies targeted for murder were Jewish babies, and perhaps Gypsy babies.

But not Slavic "useless eaters"?

There was no plan to target all Slavic babies for extermination.

Mass death is not the same thing as targeted extermination.

And Christian babies were not targeted.