The crimes of the Red Army in eastern Germany are bogus?

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David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 13 Jul 2005 21:28

Dmitry -- You said:
I cannot find here his other articles but "Kill". Just some quotes out of nowhere.
Unfortunately, we do not have many Russian-speaking members, so full translations of Ehrenburg's articles are relatively scarce. The quotes from Ehrenburg are not "out of nowhere." The sources for the quotes from Ehrenburg are given in the posts which contain them. This complies with forum and section rules. If you wish to rebut the claims about Ehrenburg with other documents, or show that the quoted documents are somehow mistaken, step right up.

Ehrenburg is also discussed at:

Red Army Killing and Rape Crimes on German Soil
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17654

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 14 Jul 2005 01:31

According to te book "Red Storm on the Reich : The Soviet March on Germany, 1945" by Christopher Duffy (London : Routledge, 1991), when the Soviet Army was besieging Danzig millions of copies of Erenburg's pamphlet "Kill, kill, kill" were circulated among the Soviet soldiers.

Regardless of when that particular pamphlet was written, it was still being used early in 1945 as a propaganda weapon to incite hatred and a desire for revenge among Soviet soldiers, the majority of whom were highly impressionable teenagers with no knowledge of the outside world.

Dmitri is also being a bit deceptive when he says that the Russian word "nemec" = German, can only indicate a German male. Although the feminine form, "nemka", specifically denotes a German woman only, "nemec" can specifically mean a German male, or a German in general.

So the cry "ubei nemtsov" = kill the Germans, using the masculine form of the word, does not imply that only German males should be killed. It means that any German should be killed.

Russian pogromists shouted "bei zhidov" = beat the Jews (masculine), but they did not refrain from beating and raping Jewish women.

It is the same in English. The word "Jewess" specifically denotes a Jewish woman, but the word "Jew" can denote both Jewish men and women.

A further note on the propaganda material produced by Erenburg. Even while the war was still underway, a whole series of his hate pieces was published in English as part of a regular publication called something like "News from Moscow".

I have read one of them called "Wolves They are, Wolves They Remain", the entire text of which is reproduced in the book "Stalin's War of Extermination" by the late German historian, Dr Joachim Hoffmann.

That pamphlet was produced by Erenburg toward the end of the war, after he visited German territory already under Soviet occupation. The theme was that the German people would always remain wolves because of their race.

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 03:25

michael mills wrote:According to te book "Red Storm on the Reich : The Soviet March on Germany, 1945" by Christopher Duffy (London : Routledge, 1991), when the Soviet Army was besieging Danzig millions of copies of Erenburg's pamphlet "Kill, kill, kill" were circulated among the Soviet soldiers.
What are his proofs for that claim?
michael mills wrote:Dmitri is also being a bit deceptive when he says that the Russian word "nemec" = German, can only indicate a German male. Although the feminine form, "nemka", specifically denotes a German woman only, "nemec" can specifically mean a German male, or a German in general.
nemec - singular German male
nemka - singular German woman
nemcy - plural so it could be both. I.e. this word (not word nemec) can mean German males, or Germans in general.
nemky - plural German females

In this particular article he used mostly word nemec and twice nemcy and given the context it's apparent that he wrote about soldiers only.
michael mills wrote:So the cry "ubei nemtsov" = kill the Germans, using the masculine form of the word, does not imply that only German males should be killed. It means that any German should be killed.
No. Excuse me, it's your fantasy. It means not just German males - it means German soldiers. As a native speaker reading the authenic text and knowing that it was writen in desperate 1942 I feel nothing wrong with his call to kill invaders.

If you wish to juggle with excerpts leaving aside the whole text and it's context - then it's useless discussion.
michael mills wrote:A further note on the propaganda material produced by Erenburg. Even while the war was still underway, a whole series of his hate pieces was published in English as part of a regular publication called something like "News from Moscow".

I have read one of them called "Wolves They are, Wolves They Remain", the entire text of which is reproduced in the book "Stalin's War of Extermination" by the late German historian, Dr Joachim Hoffmann.
If it is not inconvenient for you can you look up date-line. In what Soviet newspaper was it published and when. Or does it exist in English only. Are you sure it's not one of numerous Goebbels falsifications?

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 04:23

David Thompson wrote:Dmitry -- You said:
I cannot find here his other articles but "Kill". Just some quotes out of nowhere.
Unfortunately, we do not have many Russian-speaking members, so full translations of Ehrenburg's articles are relatively scarce. The quotes from Ehrenburg are not "out of nowhere." The sources for the quotes from Ehrenburg are given in the posts which contain them. This complies with forum and section rules. If you wish to rebut the claims about Ehrenburg with other documents, or show that the quoted documents are somehow mistaken, step right up.
I see that they refer to books. But I mean I cannot find references to particular Soviet newsparers with Erhenburg articles - that kind of sources i.e. primary sources. How else can I check on quotes?

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 07:31

michael mills wrote:Dmitri is also being a bit deceptive when he says that the Russian word "nemec" = German, can only indicate a German male. Although the feminine form, "nemka", specifically denotes a German woman only, "nemec" can specifically mean a German male, or a German in general.
I wish to bring into focus that you are absolutelly wrong here.
The word "nemec" by no means could mean German in general. It specifically denotes a German male only. There is no any ambiguity.
Ask ANY Russian.

Erhenburg used that very word 'nemec' (German male) through all his article.



Your accusation of deception is improper (at best).

Karman
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Post by Karman » 14 Jul 2005 08:08

David Thompson wrote:Karman -- Thanks. This is exactly the sort of thing we're looking for here.

My assessment of the previous H&WC discussions on this issue can be seen at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 057#448057
Thank you. With regar to Djilas remark of Stalin's attitude towards crimes commited by Red Army cervisemen. Malyshev, Minister of Heavy Industry under Stalin put down in his diary of March 28, 1945 put down Stalin's words in this regard:
Òîâàðèù Ñòàëèí ïîñëå ðÿäà òîñòîâ ãîñòåé çà Êðàñíóþ Àðìèþ ñêàçàë ñëåäóþùåå: «Âñå õâàëÿò íàøó Êðàñíóþ Àðìèþ. Äà, îíà ýòî çàñëóæèëà. Íî ÿ õîòåë áû, ÷òîáû íàøè ãîñòè, áóäó÷è î÷àðîâàíû Êðàñíîé Àðìèåé, íå ðàçî÷àðîâàëèñü áû ïîòîì. Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî ñåé÷àñ â Êðàñíîé Àðìèè íàõîäèòñÿ îêîëî 12 ìèë[ëèîíîâ] ÷åëîâåê. Ýòè ëþäè äàëåêî íå àíãåëû. Ýòè ëþäè îãðóáåëè âî âðåìÿ âîéíû. Ìíîãèå èç íèõ ïðîøëè â áîÿõ 2000 êì îò Ñòàëèíãðàäà äî ñåðåäèíû ×åõî-Ñëîâàêèè. Îíè âèäåëè íà ñâîåì ïóòè ìíîãî ãîðÿ è çâåðñòâ. Ïîýòîìó íå óäèâëÿéòåñü, åñëè íåêîòîðûå íàøè ëþäè â âàøåé ñòðàíå áóäóò ñåáÿ äåðæàòü íå òàê, êàê íóæíî. Ìû çíàåì, ÷òî íåêîòîðûå ìàëîñîçíàòåëüíûå ñîëäàòû ïðèñòàþò è îñêîðáëÿþò äåâóøåê è æåíùèí, áåçîáðàçíè÷àþò. Ïóñòü íàøè äðóçüÿ-÷åõîñëîâàêè çíàþò ýòî ñåé÷àñ äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû î÷àðîâàíèå íàøåé Êðàñíîé Àðìèåé íå ñìåíèëîñü áû ðàçî÷àðîâíèåì".
Journal Vestnik N5 of 1997, p. 128

Translation: After a number of toasts to Red Army comrade Stalin said as follows: “Everybody is glorifying our Red Army. Yes it deserved it. But I wish that our guests being enchanted with Red Army do not get disappointed in the future. The case is that there are 12 million of people in Red Army. These people are far from being angels. These people got roughened during the war. Many of them were fighting all the way covering 2000 km from Stalingrad to the middle of Czechoslovakia. They have met a lot of grief and brutalities on their way. So do not get surprised if some of our men will not properly conduct in your country. We know that some poorly conscientious soldiers importune and insult women and girls. They hell around. Let our friends Czechoslovaks learn that today in order that their fascination of the Red Army was not replaced with disappointment.
End of translation


Djilas “Face of Totalitarism”:

Stalin said of the Red Army soldiers:
Ïðåäñòàâüòå ñåáå ÷åëîâåêà,
êîòîðûé ïðîõîäèò ñ áîÿìè îò Ñòàëèíãðàäà äî Áåëãðàäà -- òûñÿ÷è êèëîìåòðîâ ïî
ñâîåé îïóñòîøåííîé çåìëå, âèäÿ ãèáåëü òîâàðèùåé è ñàìûõ áëèçêèõ ëþäåé!
Ðàçâå òàêîé ÷åëîâåê ìîæåò ðåàãèðîâàòü íîðìàëüíî? È ÷òî ñòðàøíîãî â òîì,
åñëè îí ïîøàëèò ñ æåíùèíîé ïîñëå òàêèõ óæàñîâ? Âû Êðàñíóþ Àðìèþ
ïðåäñòàâëÿëè ñåáå èäåàëüíîé. À îíà íå èäåàëüíàÿ è íå áûëà áû èäåàëüíîé,
äàæå åñëè áû â íåé íå áûëî îïðåäåëåííîãî ïðîöåíòà óãîëîâíûõ ýëåìåíòîâ -- ìû
îòêðûëè òþðüìû è âñåõ âçÿëè â àðìèþ.


Translation: Imagine a man who is fighting all his way from Stalingrad to Belgrade – thousands of kilometers on his devastated soil, he sees the deaths of his comrades and his most dear people. Can this man react normally? So is it as bad if he had some pleasure with a woman after seeing all those horrors? You imagined the Red Army to be ideal. It is not ideal and has never been even if we had not drafted a certain percentage of criminal elements – we opened prisons and conscripted all to the army.
End of translation

So you can see that both quotes are very similar but the accents are different. In his "Conversations with Stalin" Djilas describes the latter as a clown who tries to boose up his people and the same words Djilas gives in a more grotesque manner:
È ýòó àðìèþ îñêîðáèë íå êòî èíîé, êàê Äæèëàñ! Äæèëàñ, îò êîòîðîãî ÿ ýòîãî ìåíüøå âñåãî îæèäàë! Êîòîðîãî ÿ òàê òåïëî ïðèíÿë! Àðìèþ, êîòîðàÿ íå æàëåëà äëÿ âàñ ñâîåé êðîâè! Çíàåò ëè Äæèëàñ, ïèñàòåëü, ÷òî òàêîå ÷åëîâå÷åñêèå ñòðàäàíèÿ è ÷åëîâå÷åñêîå ñåðäöå? Ðàçâå îí íå ìîæåò ïîíÿòü áîéöà, ïðîøåäøåãî òûñÿ÷è êèëîìåòðîâ ñêâîçü êðîâü, è îãîíü, è ñìåðòü, åñëè òîò ïîøàëèò ñ æåíùèíîé èëè çàáåðåò êàêîé-íèáóäü ïóñòÿê?"


Translation: [Stalin said]; “None other but Djilas insulted that army (Red Army)! Djilas was the last person I expected that from. The person whom I welcomed so open-heartedly! The Army that spared her blood for you! I wonder if Djilas – a writer – knows what human grieves or human hearts mean? Can he understood a fighter who moved through blood and fire and death covering thousands kilometers. (what is so wrong) if he enjoys himself with a woman or takes a trifle?
End of translation
All that was said in a foolish manner in bizarre conditions of a Kremlin drunk party.
Anyway I think it is not the proper basis to speculate on Stalin’s intentions. Malyshev’ memoirs fell in line with issued directives and orders so I trust them better.

About the soldiers who got roughened. I remember that when I was a kid I asked vets to describe their war experience. The following story I heard from my friends grandfather (but I think it is a common story in Russia): Russian winter. Soldiers are marching forward. March rest. Soldiers are looking for a place to rest and have some snacks. It is extremely cold. My friend’s grandfather sees a log under snow. He takes a seat on the log, takes a knife and pierces it into the log to use later. Then he takes some bread and some bacon out of his bag. Takes out the knife and cleans the log from the snow to use it as a table. The “log” turns out to be a frozen human body. The soldier is very tired to search for another place. He continues sitting on the “log” and eating.

Those guys sure did not care much about the fate of German women. And sure they did not need an Erenburg to warm up their vengeance.

I also asked a vet is it true that they raped so many women in Germany. He answered that probably those who were too much greedy for a couple of cans of army pot roast. Those who were not greedy did not have to rape.

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Post by Karman » 14 Jul 2005 08:30

Dmitry wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Dmitry -- You said:
I cannot find here his other articles but "Kill". Just some quotes out of nowhere.
Unfortunately, we do not have many Russian-speaking members, so full translations of Ehrenburg's articles are relatively scarce. The quotes from Ehrenburg are not "out of nowhere." The sources for the quotes from Ehrenburg are given in the posts which contain them. This complies with forum and section rules. If you wish to rebut the claims about Ehrenburg with other documents, or show that the quoted documents are somehow mistaken, step right up.
I see that they refer to books. But I mean I cannot find references to particular Soviet newsparers with Erhenburg articles - that kind of sources i.e. primary sources. How else can I check on quotes?
The article of Erenburg From Krasnaya Zvezda of 24.07.1942:
Âîò îòðûâêè èç òðåõ ïèñåì, íàéäåííûõ íà óáèòûõ íåìöàõ:

Óïðàâëÿþùèé Ðåéíãàðäò ïèøåò ëåéòåíàíòó Îòòî ôîí Øèðàêó:

"Ôðàíöóçîâ îò íàñ çàáðàëè íà çàâîä ß âûáðàë øåñòü ðóññêèõ èç Ìèíñêîãî îêðóãà. Îíè ãîðàçäî âûíîñëèâåé ôðàíöóçîâ. Òîëüêî îäèí èç íèõ óìåð, îñòàëüíûå ïðîäîëæàëè ðàáîòàòü â ïîëå è íà ôåðìå. Ñîäåðæàíèå èõ íè÷åãî íå ñòîèò è ìû íå äîëæíû ñòðàäàòü îò òîãî, ÷òî ýòè çâåðè, äåòè êîòîðûõ ìîæåò áûòü óáèâàþò íàøèõ ñîëäàò, åäÿò íåìåöêèé õëåá. Â÷åðà ÿ ïîäâåðã ë¸ãêîé ýêçåêóöèè äâóõ ðóññêèõ áåñòèé, êîòîðûå òàéêîì ïîæðàëè ñíÿòîå ìîëîêî, ïðåäíàçíà÷àâøååñÿ äëÿ ñâèíûõ ìàòîê..."

Ìàòåàñ Äèìëèõ ïèøåò ñâîåìó áðàòó åôðåéòîðó Ãåíðèõó Öèìëèõó:

"Â Ëåéäåíå èìååòñÿ ëàãåðü äëÿ ðóññêèõ, òàì ìîæíî èõ âèäåòü. Îðóæèÿ îíè íå áîÿòñÿ, íî ìû ñ íèìè ðàçãîâàðèâàåì õîðîøåé ïëåòüþ..."

Íåêòî Îòòî Ýññìàí ïèøåò ëåéòåíàíòó Ãåëüìóòó Âåéãàíäó:

"Ó íàñ çäåñü åñòü ïëåííûå ðóññêèå. Ýòè òèïû ïîæèðàþò äîæäåâûõ ÷åðâåé íà ïëîùàäêå àýðîäðîìà, îíè êèäàþòñÿ íà ïîìîéíîå âåäðî. ß âèäåë, êàê îíè åëè ñîðíóþ òðàâó. È ïîäóìàòü, ÷òî ýòî - ëþäè..."

Ðàáîâëàäåëüöû, îíè õîòÿò ïðåâðàòèòü íàø íàðîä â ðàáîâ. Îíè âûâîçÿò ðóññêèõ ê ñåáå, èýäåâàþòñÿ, äîâîäÿò èõ ãîëîäîì äî áåçóìèÿ, äî òîãî, ÷òî óìèðàÿ, ëþäè åäÿò òðàâó, ÷åðâåé, à ïîãàíûé íåìåö ñ òóõëîé ñèãàðîé â çóáàõ ôèëîñîôñòâóåò: "Ðàçâå ýòî ëþäè?.."

Ìû çíàåì âñå. Ìû ïîìíèì âñå. Ìû ïîíÿëè: íåìöû íå ëþäè. Îòíûíå ñëîâî "íåìåö" äëÿ íàñ ñàìîå ñòðàøíîå ïðîêëÿòüå. Îòíûíå ñëîâî "íåìåö" ðàçðÿæàåò ðóæüå. Íå áóäåì ãîâîðèòü. Íå áóäåì âîçìóùàòüñÿ. Áóäåì óáèâàòü. Åñëè òû íå óáèë çà äåíü õîòÿ áû îäíîãî íåìöà. òâîé äåíü ïðîïàë. Åñëè òû äóìàåøü, ÷òî çà òåáÿ íåìöà óáüåò òâîé ñîñåä, òû íå ïîíÿë óãðîçû. Åñëè òû íå óáüåøü íåìöà, íåìåö óáüåò òåáÿ. Îí âîçüìåò òâîèõ è áóäåò ìó÷èòü èõ â ñâîåé îêàÿííîé Ãåðìàíèè. Åñëè òû íå ìîæåøü óáèòü íåìöà ïóëåé, óáåé íåìöà øòûêîì. Åñëè íà òâîåì ó÷àñòêå çàòèøüå, åñëè òû æäåøü áîÿ, óáåé íåìöà äî áîÿ. Åñëè òû îñòàâèøü íåìöà æèòü, íåìåö ïîâåñèò ðóññêîãî ÷åëîâåêà è îïîçîðèò ðóññêóþ æåíùèíó. Åñëè òû óáèë îäíîãî íåìöà, óáåé äðóãîãî - íåò äëÿ íàñ íè÷åãî âåñåëåå íåìåöêèõ òðóïîâ. Íå ñ÷èòàé äíåé. Íå ñ÷èòàé âåðñò. Ñ÷èòàé îäíî: óáèòûõ òîáîþ íåìöåâ. Óáåé íåìöà! - ýòî ïðîñèò ñòàðóõà-ìàòü. Óáåé íåìöà! - ýòî ìîëèò òåáÿ äèòÿ. Óáåé íåìöà! - ýòî êðè÷èò ðîäíàÿ çåìëÿ. Íå ïðîìàõíèñü. Íå ïðîïóñòè. Óáåé!

Èëüÿ ÝÐÅÍÁÓÐÃ.

«Êðàñíàÿ çâåçäà», 24 èþëÿ 1942 ã (¹173 [5236])
http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTOR ... G/KILL.HTM
Regards

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 09:03

Thank you, Karman. This is well-known 'Kill'. I explained above that it's the call to kill enemy soldiers.


I was asking for more articles with 'the message of hatred and revenge'.

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Post by Karman » 14 Jul 2005 09:06

michael mills wrote: So the cry "ubei nemtsov" = kill the Germans, using the masculine form of the word, does not imply that only German males should be killed. It means that any German should be killed.

Russian pogromists shouted "bei zhidov" = beat the Jews (masculine), but they did not refrain from beating and raping Jewish women.
Well. The cry was: kill the German. The addon was: Germans are not human. But in February-March 1945 Erenburg was in Germany and wrote:
Ïî äëèííûì äîðîãàì â ñíåã èëè â ãðÿçü ïëåòóòñÿ íåìöû è íåìêè
http://www.sscadm.nsu.ru/deps/hum/reade ... g/026.html

Nemcy and Nemki (maile and female) are marching along long roads.
And further in the text he used both: nemcy and nemli. He also said:
Ìû íå âîþåì ñ äåòüìè è ñòàðóõàìè - ìû íå ôàøèñòû; è â Ãåðìàíèþ ìû ïðèøëè íå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû îòâåñòè äóøó, à ÷òîáû óíè÷òîæèòü äàæå ïàìÿòü î ãîñóäàðñòâå-óïûðå.
March 1, 1945
Translation: We do not fight against children and old women. We are not fscists. And we came to Germany not to relieve our vengeance but to destroy even the memory of the state-vampire.
He meant thal all adult Germans were potential (or acting terrorists against Red Army). That was quite reasonable I reckon. But in April 1945 Stalin ordered to change the attitude at all and even use assistance of common NSDAP members if they had not been involved in crimes. Stalin ordered to organize self-governing organizations with use of all possible German help not only of commies but of all other people. That has nothing to do with the bizaare idea to rape the nation.

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Post by Karman » 14 Jul 2005 09:09

Dmitry wrote:Thank you, Karman. This is well-known 'Kill'. I explained above that it's the call to kill enemy soldiers.


I was asking for more articles with 'the message of hatred and revenge'.
Here is a bunch of Erenburg articles: http://www.sscadm.nsu.ru/deps/hum/reade ... index.html
Cannot translate them into English. He hated and disgusted all Germans who were involved into construction of Fascist State. But that were his personal feelings and had nothing to do with Soviet regular political and economic practices in Germany. IMHO.
Regards.

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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 09:28

Karman wrote:Here is a bunch of Erenburg articles: http://www.sscadm.nsu.ru/deps/hum/reade ... index.html
Cannot translate them into English. He hated and disgusted all Germans who were involved into construction of Fascist State. But that were his personal feelings and had nothing to do with Soviet regular political and economic practices in Germany. IMHO.
Regards.
Good link. Well, maybe he hated and disgusted them but he didn't call to rape and kill civilians etc as they often ascribe it to him. That's my point. Yes sometimes his articles were strong - what else would you expect from a wartime journalist.

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Post by michael mills » 14 Jul 2005 15:00

The periodical in which Erenburg's articles appeared in English was "Soviet War News". Since it was published in Britain, I hardly think it was edited by Goebbels.

An example of Erenburg's incitement against German women appeared in English in the Soviet War News of 7 December 1944.
German women arouse only feelings of abhorrence in us. We despise them because they are the mothers, wives and sisters of butchers. We despise them because they wrote to their sons, husbands and brothers, 'Send us a beautiful fur coat'. We despise them because they are thieves and temptresses. We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us.
The terms in which Erenburg describes German women ("temptresses", "witches") suggest a strong element of misogyny and perhaps sexual perversion in Erenburg's personal psychological make-up.

The use of physical descriptions such as "flaxen-haired" shows that Erenburg was thinking in racial terms, rather in terms of social class.

Furthermore, Erenburg was not expressing hatred of German women for something they had done, but primarily because they were the relatives of German soldiers. That is indicative of the fact that Erenburg was holding the German people collectively guilty for whatever crimes had been committed by only a part of the nation.

Finally, the words "will not easily escape us" could be construed as an incitement to violence against German women. What is it that Erenburg thought German women could not escape?

It may well be that Erenburg was expressing his own personal feelings rather than Soviet policy. It may be that he was using his role as chief propagandist, which had been assigned to him by Shcherbakov, as an outlet for some personal sadistic tendency.

It may that as a Jew (but not one with a strong Jewish identity) he desired retribution for the atrocities committed against his fellow Jews.

But it is certain that Stalin allowed Erenburg to continue pouring out his message of hatred and revenge combined with a hypocritical disclaimer of any desire for vengeance, every day for almost four years. That shows that the expression of Erenburg's personal feelings served Stalin's purpose.

When Stalin no longer needed that message, he stopped Erenburg producing it.

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 16:15

michael mills wrote:The periodical in which Erenburg's articles appeared in English was "Soviet War News". Since it was published in Britain, I hardly think it was edited by Goebbels.
I hardly think Russian soldiers were reading "Soviet War News" in English. :wink:
michael mills wrote:
German women arouse only feelings of abhorrence in us. We despise them because they are the mothers, wives and sisters of butchers. We despise them because they wrote to their sons, husbands and brothers, 'Send us a beautiful fur coat'. We despise them because they are thieves and temptresses. We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us.
To discuss the rendering of this excerpt - that's all we could do now.
For example it seems to me that flaxen-haired hyenas has something to do with journalese "belokuraya bestia" - cannot translate it. Maybe it's play on words. I wold like to read the whole text in the original.

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Post by David Thompson » 14 Jul 2005 17:17

Dmitry -- You said:
I hardly think Russian soldiers were reading "Soviet War News" in English. :wink:
This remark is unresponsive to the issue being discussed. You are the one who asked for examples of Ehrenburg's writings with 'the message of hatred and revenge', and when given one (in English), you are the one who asked:
Are you sure it's not one of numerous Goebbels falsifications?
Either the writings contained in the publication, designed for English-speaking readers, are genuine or they're not. The object of this forum is to exchange and discuss factual information. If you have any evidence for the suggestion that Dr. Goebbels was involved in the preparation of the English-language "Soviet War News," produce it. There's certainly not much point in circulating a publication, designed for English-speaking readers, which is in Russian and rendered in the cyrillic alphabet as Soviet soldiers would have read it.

You also asked, in response to my remarks about your complaint regarding "some quotes out of nowhere":
I see that they refer to books. But I mean I cannot find references to particular Soviet newsparers with Erhenburg articles - that kind of sources i.e. primary sources. How else can I check on quotes?

Surely in Moscow you are in a better position to check the footnotes and original sources given in those books than most of our readers. If no primary sources are given in the books, you can point that out and note that the information is unsourced, and therefore subject to doubt or cannot be confirmed.

Now let's return to this side issue of the thread topic -- Did the Soviet government, through its publications, encourage, condone, or justify the commission of war crimes by Soviet troops in 1944-1945?

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Dmitry
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Post by Dmitry » 14 Jul 2005 17:57

David Thompson wrote:Dmitry -- You said:
I hardly think Russian soldiers were reading "Soviet War News" in English. :wink:
This remark is unresponsive to the issue being discussed. You are the one who asked for examples of Ehrenburg's writings with 'the message of hatred and revenge', and when given one (in English),

Seems you do not understand me. I was asking for article's titles, Soviet newspaper name and dates. Still I haven't got all that I wanted. That's what I called "out of nowhere".
David Thompson wrote:you are the one who asked:
Are you sure it's not one of numerous Goebbels falsifications?
Either the writings contained in the publication, designed for English-speaking readers, are genuine or they're not. The object of this forum is to exchange and discuss factual information. If you have any evidence for the suggestion that Dr. Goebbels was involved in the preparation of the English-language "Soviet War News," produce it.

I wanted to make clear what source is he using. Never heard of "News from Moscow". He specified that it was "Soviet War News". Ok. No Goebbels in this case. Forget it.
David Thompson wrote:You also asked, in response to my remarks about your complaint regarding "some quotes out of nowhere":
I see that they refer to books. But I mean I cannot find references to particular Soviet newsparers with Erhenburg articles - that kind of sources i.e. primary sources. How else can I check on quotes?

Surely in Moscow you are in a better position to check the footnotes and original sources given in those books than most of our readers. If no primary sources are given in the books, you can point that out and note that the information is unsourced, and therefore subject to doubt or cannot be confirmed.
Yes. He gave us excerpt from "Soviet War News". I have not this book. There is no such a book in Russian. It's a sort of almanac that was published in England only. How can I check on the original if I don't know what an article was called in Russian, in what newspaper was it published and when? I suppose there is something lost in translation in English rendering. Soviet's soldiers read in Russian and the texts quoted could have absolutelly another meaning in Russian.

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