SS-HJ and shootings of Canadian POWs

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Erich Hartmann
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#16

Post by Erich Hartmann » 01 Jul 2005, 10:24

>>Please read further down in the link that I provided. I believe that Max Hastings may be a tad out of date.

Wolfkin,

"...out of date"???
I don't know how this can be out of date. Did canadians (and other allies) murder german POW's? Nobody denies that.
Did germans murder canadian (and other allied) POW's? Nobody denies that either.
The difference is that about one's atrocities is talked much and punishment was meted out and about the other....?
Is this out of date? No, it's the truth!

The most convenient opinion I hear so often is "...but you can't hardly compare both. We were the good guys. There is
a difference!"

Yeah sure, the murdered POW's will be pleased to know!

...
"While the German atrocity in [the garden at the Abbaye d'Ardennes] and others like it were prosecuted, reports of Allied atrocities against Germans were never pursued. The message seems clear. War crimes committed in good cause are politically acceptable, perhaps regrettable, but such crimes are only prosecuted on the side that loses the war."...

regards

(Are we leaving the thread topic??? 8O )

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Wolfkin
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#17

Post by Wolfkin » 02 Jul 2005, 01:07

Hello!

What I meant by out of date is that Hastings uses the old "The Germans were only retaliating" bit. This is an often repeated myth. The fact is that yes, the Allies did shoot German POW's once in a while, but the Germans, especially Waffen SS units, made a habit out of shooting POW's. Read the quotes from "Conduct Unbecoming: The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy", the author states it better than I can.

One other thing that I would like to mention is that many people like to say the old "Victor's Justice" bit. I ask you this, out of all the Germans that were tried and sentenced to death, like Peiper, Meyer, Dietrich and so on, how many were actually put to death? How many of their sentences were actually carried out? Not very many at all.

Sounds to me like everyone likes to whine and sniffle about a so-called harsh Victor's Justice that wasn't even all that harsh at all. Could any of those Canadian POW's try to get their death sentence commuted? I think many German POW's should be thankful that they were taken alive in the first place because many Canadian POW's did not have that much of a chance at all.

Cheers,

Wolfkin


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Aufklarung
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#18

Post by Aufklarung » 03 Jul 2005, 19:08

Hi

Didn't see the thread was split and continued in H&WC section.

I agree Max Hastings is a dated and unreliable source. Some swear by him but I've read other accounts of the same action and their sources are a bit more eimpressive and also lack a seeming "Taint" towards Cdns, unlike Sir Max. He seems more the Journalist he started out as than a Historian, to me.

Strictly my opinion, of course.

regards
A :)

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Aufklarung
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#19

Post by Aufklarung » 03 Jul 2005, 19:16

Aufklarung wrote:Hi

Didn't see the thread was split and continued in H&WC section.

Cdns readily acknowledge their few warcrimes against German POW's. So they weren't punished. Oh well. As Eastern Front Vets, those posted to 12thSS and their brainwashed children seem more capable of sustained murder of PW's than Green canucks. Also I'd like to see an incident of Canadians killing German POWs that pre-dates Germans killing Cdns in Normandy.

I agree Max Hastings is a dated and unreliable source. Some swear by him but I've read other accounts of the same action and their sources are a bit more impressive and also lack a seeming "Taint" towards Cdns, unlike Sir Max. His Normandy book is 22 years old already. He seems more the Journalist he started out as than a Historian, to me.

Strictly my opinion, of course.

regards
A :)

Dan
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#20

Post by Dan » 03 Jul 2005, 20:37

Margolian's study is a direct rebuttal to members of the 'relativist/revisionist' school that contended Allied and German practices in Normandy were equally atrocious
While knowing nothing about the topic of this thread, it isn't particularly revisionist among up to date sources to say that atrocities on the Western Front among/between uniformed belligerents were more or less equal. Timo Worst, who doesn't post here as much as many of us would like, once said that we'll really never know which side treated the other worse. I suspect the difference wasn't all that much. I'm speaking of the Western allies in general, and not the Canadians specifically.

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Wolfkin
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#21

Post by Wolfkin » 04 Jul 2005, 00:04

Hello!

As Aufklarung stated, the Allies did shoot German POW's once in a while, but the Germans, especially Waffen SS units, made a habit out of shooting POW's. I understand that many people like to state that the Allies committed crimes as well and in some way they think that this excuses the German crimes, but I disagree. As Aufklarung also stated there is no evidence of Canadians shooting German POW's before the Germans shot Canadian POW's. The Germans like to state that it was a retaliation, the truth is that it was the Canadians that retaliated to the shooting of Canadian POW's by the Germans. A retaliation by the Canadians but in no way in the same numbers as the Germans.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Dan
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#22

Post by Dan » 04 Jul 2005, 00:24

To repeat, I will say nothing about Canadians at this point, but as to your statement
As Aufklarung stated, the Allies did shoot German POW's once in a while, but the Germans, especially Waffen SS units, made a habit out of shooting POW's.
Auf was talking about Canadians, not the Western allies in general. And you are talking out of your ass. Give figures.

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Wolfkin
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#23

Post by Wolfkin » 04 Jul 2005, 01:56

Hello!

You say I am talking out of my ass? Give figures? Why don't you give some figures to back up your statements! You say that you suspect the difference wasn't that much? Please tell my why and don't forget to bring some evidence, be it figures, links or what have you. I think that you should bring something yourself before you ask it of others.

At least 156 Canadian POW's were murdered versus a few isolated incidents of Canadians shooting German POW's. One of the main differences is that when the German POW's were shot is was quite close to the front lines but when the Canadian POW's were shot it happened close to the front lines, in the rear areas, near an HQ, during the march to POW camp and just about everywhere else. Oh yeah, and the Canadians didn't run over the dead POW's with their tanks and trucks for fun.

When I say that the Germans did it more than the Allies, I am speaking of the Canadians AND of the Western Allies. Of course there were incidents with the Allies, including the Canadians, but we are talking about a systematic and sustained situation here.

Please read this link:

http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive9.html

Oh, and don't forget that for years I studied the German side of WWII and for years I used to defend the Germans, including the Waffen SS. So, I am no stranger to this subject. But recently, I have grown tired of all of the same old "Victor's Justice", "Superior Tactics and Strategy" and "Impervious German SS Panzers knocking out hundreds of enemy tanks" stories.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Erich Hartmann
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#24

Post by Erich Hartmann » 04 Jul 2005, 02:07

Wolfkin wrote: At least 156 Canadian POW's were murdered versus a few isolated incidents of Canadians shooting German POW's.
Why are you so sure of it?
It could have been very well that the canadians started it but there isn't evidence for it nor will ever be.
The same with the numbers. Most of the atrocities from the german side are well accounted for and documented and
punished. But where are the documented facts on the allies side? The punishments?
It's quite useless to discuss this further since you have your opinion and I have mine so we won't find
common ground.
And anyway, whenever I hear the old wash: "It's different when we did it! You were muuuuuch worse!" I'm losing
always all interest!
I'm bowing out here. :|

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Wolfkin
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#25

Post by Wolfkin » 04 Jul 2005, 02:20

Hello!

You guys are indeed funny. You are putting words in my mouth. Since when did I state the the Allies were angels? The same frustration that you have with me is the same that I have with you guys when you put words in my mouth. And I am not talking about justice, I am talking about the crimes themselves.

Have you ever thought that the reason why there isn't a whole lot of evidence of Allied atrocities is because there isn't a whole lot of examples to gain evidence from? Sure there was some but not of the same magnitude. Look at how full all of those German POW camps were! And how nice they were and how well fed they were. The opposite is true of the Germans, especially the Waffen SS. Look at how many examples there are to gain evidence from.

It is also funny seeing you guys say that "you have your opinion" because only a short few years ago I would be defending the Germans and the Waffen SS and all that. In fact, some accused me of calling the Waffen SS a bunch of angels! Hahaa, my how things have a way of turning around.

No, my friends, these are not my opinions. These are truths and facts. No matter how much you don't like it you still have to face reality.

From the Cambridge Dictionary Online:

Definition
habit (REPEATED ACTION)
noun
1 [C or U] something which you do often and regularly, sometimes without knowing that you are doing it:
I always buy the same brand of toothpaste just out of (= because of) habit.
I'm trying not to get into (= start) the habit of always having biscuits with my coffee.
I used to swim twice a week, but I seem to have got out of (= ended) the habit recently.
I was taught to drive by my boyfriend and I'm afraid I've picked up (= caught) some of his bad habits.
His eating habits are extraordinary.
I'm trying to get him to break (= end intentionally) the habit of switching on the TV when he comes home at night.
I don't mind being woken up once or twice in the middle of the night by my flatmate so long as she doesn't make a habit of it (= do it frequently).
I'm not really in the habit of looking at (= I don't usually look at) other people's clothes, but even I noticed that awful suit!

2 [C] something annoying that someone often does:
She has a habit of finishing off other people's sentences.

My statement that the Germans, especially the Waffen SS, had a habit of shooting POW’s is not incorrect. Because, according to and using the above definition as a guide = they did it often and regularly and it was something annoying. Therefore, it was a habit.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

David Thompson
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#26

Post by David Thompson » 04 Jul 2005, 04:24

Everyone -- Please drop the personal remarks and stick to arguing the topic.

For anyone interested in doing numerical comparisons of atrocities on the western front, there are a large number of allegations collected at:

Seidler-De Zayas list of American war crimes
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 771#414771

and in the index of threads listed at:

Allied war crimes FAQs
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53295
Allied Units implicated in war crimes
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24148

Andreas
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#27

Post by Andreas » 04 Jul 2005, 08:04

Dan wrote:Give figures.
Off the top of my head:

Le Paradis - 90
Wormhoudt - 80-100
Abbaye de l'Ardenne - 156 (as stated by Wolfkin)
Malmedy - 90 (?)

In each of these cases the shooting occurred well after surrender had been accepted, and the victims had been marched off the place of capture. It is also likely that in the first three cases the shooting occurred either on the orders, or at least with the knowledge of the German commander on the spot. In the context of shooting POWs in cold blood, I think those four instances suffice to call it a habit, since it was a very rare event in the west.

I see a qualitative difference between commanders ordering their unit to shoot POWs outside combat, and enlisted men/subalterns refusing surrender/quarter at the sharp end. I am not aware of any allied commander in Normandy ordering German prisoners to be lined up and shot after having them interrogated/marched out of the combat zone. If you are, please say who it was and where it occurred.

Dan
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#28

Post by Dan » 04 Jul 2005, 08:13

In the context of shooting POWs in cold blood, I think those four instances suffice to call it a habit, since it was a very rare event in the west.
You contradict yourself. It can't be a habit and rare.

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#29

Post by tonyh » 04 Jul 2005, 12:22

Margolian's book sounds like a standard issue white wash (one side good, one side bad). And anything that the Germans must be evil and/or an atrocity and if viewed otherwise, is somehow..."revisionist". I wonder if Margolian even mentions the murder of German POW's...or is it conveniently left out.

Also, Max Hasting's opinion is "out of date" because it doesn't toe the "goodguys badguys" line?

What utter shite.

Rather like this...
the Allies did shoot German POW's once in a while, but the Germans, especially Waffen SS units, made a habit out of shooting POW's.
Thats simply your opinion Wolfkin, not fact.

Tony

David Thompson
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#30

Post by David Thompson » 04 Jul 2005, 15:31

Let's keep this discussion on a factual basis.

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