SS-HJ and shootings of Canadian POWs

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Andreas
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#31

Post by Andreas » 04 Jul 2005, 20:19

Dan wrote:
In the context of shooting POWs in cold blood, I think those four instances suffice to call it a habit, since it was a very rare event in the west.
You contradict yourself. It can't be a habit and rare.
Rare in the west in general. Not rare when looking at the Waffen-SS, by comparison with other formations, such as the Heer, the Luftwaffe, the Commonwealth, and most of the US.

In fact, the only instances of POWs being lined up and shot in these circumstances that I can think of are related to the Waffen-SS, and on the allied side to the US 45th Infantry Division in Sicily (I believe the Dachau shootings were rather similar to the probably cause at Malmedy - i.e. an enlisted soldier started firing without orders to do so, and in the case of Dachau was quickly stopped).

You are welcome to provide further examples of the Allies doing this same thing.

Dan
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#32

Post by Dan » 04 Jul 2005, 22:00

You are welcome to provide further examples of the Allies doing this same thing.
How about the French gunning down their fellow Frenchmen in SS uniforms?


Andreas
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#33

Post by Andreas » 04 Jul 2005, 22:21

Dan wrote:
You are welcome to provide further examples of the Allies doing this same thing.
How about the French gunning down their fellow Frenchmen in SS uniforms?
How about them? Some details would be interesting.

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#34

Post by David Thompson » 04 Jul 2005, 23:12

Andreas -- You wrote:
Dan wrote:
You are welcome to provide further examples of the Allies doing this same thing.

How about the French gunning down their fellow Frenchmen in SS uniforms?

How about them? Some details would be interesting.
I think Dan may have been talking about the incident described in these threads:

SS-Charlemagne Denkemal
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61337
General LeClerk & French volunteers
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17745
SS French troops killed by "free French" forces
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=2282

Dan
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#35

Post by Dan » 04 Jul 2005, 23:25

Thanks, David, that was indeed what I was refering to.

Andreas
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#36

Post by Andreas » 04 Jul 2005, 23:30

Dan wrote:
You are welcome to provide further examples of the Allies doing this same thing.
How about the French gunning down their fellow Frenchmen in SS uniforms?
Similar in some respects, yet different in others, so I don't think it is quite comparable.

Dan
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#37

Post by Dan » 04 Jul 2005, 23:44

Similar in some respects, yet different in others, so I don't think it is quite comparable.
Well, if we all get to define war crimes, that's cool, because the other guy is always guilty and you never are.

On the other hand, if we are interested in the rule of law as opposed to the rule of the jungle, there have to be agreed upon standards.

I thought of what Timo said (a year or two ago here) just two weeks ago, about how we'll never know all the details of what happened. I was driving a former WW2 Mustang pilot from the local botanical gardens (where he's a volunteer and hired me to automate their irrigation system, and he told me stories that have never been printed in any books concerning action in Italy. The guy's a renowned chemistry professor and I refuse to believe he would lie, but as Mr. Kaschner wrote the other day here, you really can't claim either first or second hand info as proof, so I wont even go into details, but the more I learn the more I'm convinced that there really wasn't any demonstrable difference on the Western Front between how the Axis treated prisoners and the Allies.

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#38

Post by Andreas » 05 Jul 2005, 00:09

Dan wrote:
Similar in some respects, yet different in others, so I don't think it is quite comparable.
Well, if we all get to define war crimes, that's cool, because the other guy is always guilty and you never are.
Where have I said it is not a crime, and that Gen. Leclerc would not be considered guilty, based on the evidence presented here?

I suggest you immediately put a stop to putting words into my mouth.

All the best

Andreas

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#39

Post by Wolfkin » 05 Jul 2005, 03:35

Hello Tony! Hello Dan!

I think it would be a better debate if the both of you brought some sort of evidence to the table, be it a link, stats, figures or what have you. So far, your only argument has been stating that this is just my opinion and that it is not facts. Well, my opinion is based on facts and research. I have brought figures and links and so has Andreas and David Thompson. Also, there has been many posts on other threads by Rob WSSOB that y'all can take a look at. So far, y'all have just used YOUR opinion against my opinion, the difference being that I have used facts and research to base my opinion. Also, y'all might want to pick up these books:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 28-9250412

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

I have some more examples to share. There are several instances reported by Canadian soldiers of quite savage behaviour by the Germans, in particular the Waffen SS. On several occasions there were Canadian wounded lying in the battlefield after the battle. Groups of Germans would sweep around the battlefield "mopping up". The way they mopped up? Every time they came upon a body they would kick it, if there was no reaction they would move on, if there was a reaction they would shoot the wounded soldier immediately. There are accounts of quite a few wounded Canadian soldiers that feigned death, even after being kicked, and made their way to safety later. Such actions display an amazing will to live by the Canadians and quite remorseless and savage behaviour by the Waffen SS. I am unable to find such savage behaviour on the Allied side, rather the Allies took many wounded Germans prisoner. I doubt that the Canadians were the only recipients of such behaviour.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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#40

Post by tonyh » 05 Jul 2005, 11:12

The way they mopped up? Every time they came upon a body they would kick it, if there was no reaction they would move on, if there was a reaction they would shoot the wounded soldier immediately.
And why do you think this was limited to the Germans?

You see this is the essential problem with your stance. You are viewing the subject through "good guys/bad guys" eyes and that will ALWAYS lead to a false perspective. Everything the Germans will do is "bad" and anything the Allies do can be explained away.

Its just not good enough.

The major block in discussing these issues is that from the very outset, we aren't given all the transparent facts. For a start its very difficult to research Allied warcrimes with any certainty and frankly when one presents such a case, there is usually a pack of hounds ready to leap on it and kick up a stink to the point where a rational discussion on the subject becomes impossible for everyone concerned.

The accusation (and blind acceptance) of German warcrimes has become so commonplace, that almost anything can be claimed, with the absolute minimum of evidence and there will be a large number of people just willing to believe it, without any regard or pause for judgement.

This imbalance destroys any logical discussion on the subject.

All sides commited war crimes, just because the crimes of the side that lost are written about more frequently (by the side that won, on the whole) doesn't mean that one side has the monoply or the moral high ground.

Every side has the share of atrocity stories and like Dan I have heard quite a few. My own father used transfered to the RAF transport corps from the R Engineers at the end of the war. He used to ferry pilots to and from areodromes and some of the stories the pilots used to tell him gave him a vastly different perspective on the Allies and war crimes in general.

The problem is is that atrocities against the Germans are not written down, while any old warcrime/alegation/atrocity that the Germans are said to have committed are usually to be found in a book or some other situation. This certainly doesn't mean they constitute fact....anyone can make an alegation. And I have lost count how many times a standard alegation an be broken down with a little investigation into it.

Tony

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Wolfkin
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#41

Post by Wolfkin » 06 Jul 2005, 03:10

Hello Tony!

Thank you for your response, you have made a good post in favour of your opinion. But first, I would like to correct you and any others on something. I wish that y'all would quit saying the "good guy/bad guy", "The other guy is worse", "Victor's Justice" and "Victor's write the history" lines because they do not refer to me. Why don't you click on my profile in this and any other Forum to see my posts and threads over the years. I have spent over 13 years researching and studying WWII, in particular the German Panzerwaffe. I have always defended the German point of view whenever I could. But, after doing some further research I have realized the my previous opinion and stance could very well have been flawed. I did not come to this opinion and conclusion overnight so I would appreciate if others would not oversimplify the reasons for my opinion. Yes, all sides shot prisoners but it should be obvious to just about anyone capable of any understanding, that the Germans, especially the Waffen SS, acted on this behaviour in a much more frequent manner.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

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#42

Post by David Thompson » 06 Jul 2005, 03:21

tonyh -- You said:
The problem is is that atrocities against the Germans are not written down, while any old warcrime/alegation/atrocity that the Germans are said to have committed are usually to be found in a book or some other situation. This certainly doesn't mean they constitute fact....anyone can make an alegation. And I have lost count how many times a standard alegation an be broken down with a little investigation into it.
I think the first part of your statement ("atrocities against the Germans are not written down") is inaccurate. You might find Larry D.'s post about the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau records at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 888#726888 of interest. If someone actually wanted to do some research, there's no shortage of material:
The Wehrmacht had a war crimes investigative bureau. It continued its work right up to the end of the war and its huge collection of records survived and are presently available to researchers at the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg.

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#43

Post by Larso » 06 Jul 2005, 09:01

Wolfkin, on the previous page you said something along the lines that Allied soldiers shot prisoners once in a while. Were you just referring to Canadians or to Allied troops as a whole? Frankly from my years of reading veterans accounts the number of cases of Allied, usually US troops because they were the most numerous, shooting German prisoners would run into the thousands of instances. I see that Max Hastings has been criticised in this thread but his assertion that up to half of Germans surrendering (outside of larger more organised unit capitulations) were shot is probably not far wrong. So prevalent was the practice that I can scarce remember a book where examples were not disclosed. Overall such killings would have exceeded those by the SS many times over.

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#44

Post by tonyh » 06 Jul 2005, 11:09

Wolfkin wrote:Hello Tony!

Thank you for your response, you have made a good post in favour of your opinion. But first, I would like to correct you and any others on something. I wish that y'all would quit saying the "good guy/bad guy", "The other guy is worse", "Victor's Justice" and "Victor's write the history" lines because they do not refer to me. Why don't you click on my profile in this and any other Forum to see my posts and threads over the years. I have spent over 13 years researching and studying WWII, in particular the German Panzerwaffe. I have always defended the German point of view whenever I could. But, after doing some further research I have realized the my previous opinion and stance could very well have been flawed. I did not come to this opinion and conclusion overnight so I would appreciate if others would not oversimplify the reasons for my opinion. Yes, all sides shot prisoners but it should be obvious to just about anyone capable of any understanding, that the Germans, especially the Waffen SS, acted on this behaviour in a much more frequent manner.

Cheers,

Wolfkin
Hi Wolf,

Try not to take the "good guy/bad guy" slant as a regard towards you. I don't mean it purely in relation to your post alone. But whether we like it or not, the skewed position exists and I really do think its rather unfortunate. So, if I mention it again, take it as not a reference to you, but a reference to a certain stance :) . I kinda used it because I lack the ability to come up with a better phrase :oops: .
...But, after doing some further research I have realized the my previous opinion and stance could very well have been flawed.
A commendable ability and many people in here could do with learning it. But don't make the "I was wrong before, but I'm right now" mistake.

In my experience, most people are wrong to some degree 90% of the time.

I hear your opinion and its welcome, but I just cannot agree with it. IMO war crimes occured on all sides and I honestly do not believe that any side has the monopoly or the higher ground.

But as I said the documented/alledged/hearsay etc crimes of the Germans are just far easier to find, whereas the crimes against the Germans are far harder to track down.

By that yardstick, we start off on the wrong foot. And for that reason alone we must view ALL accusations with the most sceptical eye, until proof beyond a certain line of reasoning can be produced.

Tony

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#45

Post by tonyh » 06 Jul 2005, 11:21

David Thompson wrote:tonyh -- You said:
The problem is is that atrocities against the Germans are not written down, while any old warcrime/alegation/atrocity that the Germans are said to have committed are usually to be found in a book or some other situation. This certainly doesn't mean they constitute fact....anyone can make an alegation. And I have lost count how many times a standard alegation an be broken down with a little investigation into it.
I think the first part of your statement ("atrocities against the Germans are not written down") is inaccurate. You might find Larry D.'s post about the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau records at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 888#726888 of interest. If someone actually wanted to do some research, there's no shortage of material:
The Wehrmacht had a war crimes investigative bureau. It continued its work right up to the end of the war and its huge collection of records survived and are presently available to researchers at the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg.
Hi Dave,

The first part of my statement is quite correct when one puts it in context. Put simply, I can go into any bookstore in the world and pick up a book about WWII that by and large would contain some reference to a German warcrime in WWII, especially when it is written with an Allied point of view.

I simply cannot do that when the dealing with crimes against the Axis sides.

I am aware of the Wehrmacht war crimes bureau, but haven't delved into it to any real degree, much to my shame I must say :oops: . Although I did try to compile a list of accusations against the Allies over a period of time and found it very difficult to corroborate with cross referenced material.

But the Wehrmacht war crimes bureau for many people is an obscure reference, open only to people with an advanced interest in the subject. It certainly is not "accessible" the majority of people. Simply because the majority of people aren't aware of its existence.

The opposite side of the coin is far easier to access.

I hope I have made myself clearer.

Tony

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