British Blockade And WWII Food Shortage

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Molobo
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#16

Post by Molobo » 24 Aug 2005, 23:56

Molobo, sometimes there aren't choices: aggression is the only way of changing a status quo perceive as unjust or unsecure or ..., expecially when the attacked is simply doing its best, backed by a couple of world powers, to provoke the attack.
The aim of German Reich was extermination of Jews, extermination of majority of population of other nations considered animals, and securing of Lebensraum.The need for war was defined by Hitler in "Mein Kampf".None of those goals justify German Reich aggression.
As to the later off topic part-there is difference between attacking a democracy with the aim of exterminating subhumans for settlement and trying to establish democracy.
Enough with that.Let's end this needless debate.

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#17

Post by Jon G. » 25 Aug 2005, 00:01

DrG wrote:now I haven't the time anymore (as you may see from the vertical drop of the number of my posts in this forum in the last weeks), nor the will, of writing in this forum and even less of "debating" with people like you.
I hope you didn't mean that. Welcome back, Guido. You've been missed :)


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#18

Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005, 00:34

Here are some charts which may be helpful to the readers. They are taken from ed. J. Noakes and G. Pridham, Nazism 1919-1945, vol. 3 (Foreign Policy, War and Racial Extermination), University of Exeter Press, Exeter: 1988, pp. 910-911.

The source given for the first chart is A.S. Milward, War, Economy and Society 1939-1945, London: 1977, p. 262.

The source given for the second and third charts is L. Burchardt, "Die Auswirkungen der Kriegswirtschaft auf die deutsche Zivilibevölkerung im Ersten und im Zweiten Weltkrieg," Militärgeschlichtliche Mitteilungen 15, pp. 75 (chart 3), 79 (chart 2).
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michael mills
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#19

Post by michael mills » 25 Aug 2005, 00:40

According to the figures posted by DrG, Britain was far more exposed to being starved into submission than Germany, since it was only 25% self-sufficient in food.

However, given that it could not be besieged by land, its vastly superior naval strength meant that the possibility of an enemy's cutting off its seaborne food imports was very low.

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#20

Post by michael mills » 25 Aug 2005, 01:07

The charts posted by the moderator are very interesting, but they do not address the core issue, which is the aggregate food shortage in German-occupied or dominated Europe caused by the cessation of pre-war food imports as a result of the Allied blockade.

What the charts show is the distribution of the available food supplies within German-occupied or dominated Europe (with the eception of imports from Sweden).

The charts show that the distribution of food within Europe was managed by the German hegemonic power in such a way as to keep the German civilian population well fed at the expense of other peoples. No great surprises there.

Nevertheless, the first chart shows some interesting phenomena. One is the net outflow of food from Germany to the Generalgouvernement of Poland in 1940 and 1941, ie in those years Germany was helping to feed Poland, rather than the other way around.

The following years, 1942 and 1943, show a reversal of that outflow, and a marked increase in the flow of food from Poland to Germany. One reason for that increase could have been the maintenance or increase of food production within Poland combined with a reduction of food consumption within Poland.

One way in which food production in Poland in Poland could have been maintained while reducing consumption is a retention of food producers, ie Polish peasants, and a reduction of Polish consumers, specifically be eliminating a group of consumers in Poland who were not food producers, ie town-dwellers.

The timing of reversal of the net outflow of food from Germany to Poland suggests that the elimination of the group of consumers occurred in 1942.

No prizes for guessing the identity of the group of urban consumers in Poland that was not a food-producer and was eliminated in 1942!

The first chart also shows some other cases of net outflow of food from Germany, eg to Norway in 1943, at net outflow of 74.8 million RM, compared with the largest inflow from that country of 50.5 million RM in the previous year.

Another outflow was to Belgium-Luxembourg in 1941, RM 60.4 million, compared with the largest inflow from that country of only RM 18.4 million in 1940. In the following year, 1942, there was a net inflow to Germany of a paltry RM 4.1 million, but in 1943 and 1944 there were again large outflows from Germany to Belgium-Luxembourg, RM 14.3 million and RM 33.2 million respectively.

So it appears that Germany, far from ripping the poor Belgians off food-wise, was actually feeding them on a massive scale. Nice people those Germans.

To paraphrase the epigram by George Bernard Shaw, a German Government that kills Polish Jews and feeds Belgians will always have the support of the Belgians.

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#21

Post by Molobo » 25 Aug 2005, 01:33

specifically be eliminating a group of consumers in Poland who were not food producers, ie town-dwellers.
Mills, no need to use euphemisms.Murder is the word.
No prizes for guessing the identity of the group of urban consumers in Poland that was not a food-producer and was eliminated in 1942!
I'm then amazed at German Reich ability to predict future events.Program of extermintion and murder campaigns (such as Operation Tannenberg) were started since September 1939.
One reason for that increase could have been the maintenance or increase of food production within Poland combined with a reduction of food consumption within Poland.
Or simple brutal confiscation of food stocks and reduction of food rations...
One way in which food production in Poland in Poland could have been maintained while reducing consumption is a retention of food producers, ie Polish peasants, and a reduction of Polish consumers, specifically be eliminating a group of consumers in Poland who were not food producers, ie town-dwellers.
Or equal spreading out of food rations.Especially when compered to hight of food rations of Germans compered to those considered subhumans-Jews,Poles.
Last edited by Molobo on 25 Aug 2005, 01:55, edited 1 time in total.

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#22

Post by DrG » 25 Aug 2005, 01:39

Shrek wrote:I hope you didn't mean that. Welcome back, Guido. You've been missed :)
Shrek, you are always too kind. :)
But certainly I won't be able to post here as often as I did until a few months ago because of personal reasons (I must be far from my books for most of the week, and even when I am back in my library I have not much spare time).
But to be completely sincere there are also other reasons: while I do appreciate your posts, or those of many other members and moderators, so many that I couldn't list them all, I admit I have developed quite a pessimistic view of forums in general, and of this one in particular. While forums are perfect for strictly technical matters like OOBs or the name of a commander of an obscure unit, etc. (but these are exactly those that I know the least, and that I must dig from my books), I have reached the conclusion that there is too much "noise" to debate anything more generic or profund. In other words, it is quite difficult to debate anything without being "put on trial" for every single word you have written, and, like in any society, in forums there are groups, elites, etc. that try to influence the political view of the readers and mob those who don't agree with the majority (important note: not the majority of the members, but the majority of the active ones: society, and thus history, is moved by elites, not by the common and silent people). It is natural in any group (by the way, are you familiar with Vilfredo Pareto's sociologic, but also economic, views? I reccomend him to you), although I must admit that I think that not rarely the administration of this forum is too involved in the promotion of the historic view that it prefers. Moreover the presence of many different nationalities causes another problem: national groups are clearly present, with their own ideology (not always strictly nationalistic, simply the ideologic view of history that is common within a given nation) to put forward.
Thus, even though the lack of time and the distance from my books are the most important causes of my present and future silence, I must admit I'm quite disaffected from this forum, although I still have an high opinion of not a few of its members.

Guido

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#23

Post by Jon G. » 25 Aug 2005, 02:22

michael mills wrote:The charts posted by the moderator are very interesting, but they do not address the core issue, which is the aggregate food shortage in German-occupied or dominated Europe caused by the cessation of pre-war food imports as a result of the Allied blockade.
I agree that the charts posted by David Thompson are highly interesting. I would be more careful in seeing aggregated food production for occupied Europe as a whole as a structural problem that could not be dealt with. There were conscious efforts made in Germany also pre-war to switch agricultural production from raising animals for meat to grain-growing for example, and by 1943 Britain needed just 6 million of tons of shipping for food imports/year as opposed to 22,5 million tons of shipping/year by 1939. Reducing pastoral agriculture and cutting back on luxury production and of course rationing did much to alleviate food shortages.
Nevertheless, the first chart shows some interesting phenomena. One is the net outflow of food from Germany to the Generalgouvernement of Poland in 1940 and 1941, ie in those years Germany was helping to feed Poland, rather than the other way around.
Assuming that the tables are sub-divided by region rather than by ethniticity, there could be other explanations for the net export of foodstuffs to Poland, for example the rather large Wehrmacht presence in Poland in 1941. That's of course just speculation on my part, but there were big regional differences with regards to rations as expressed as the total calories one person would get by covering his needs with ration cards only. In general, eastern Europe was worse off than western Europe.
The following years, 1942 and 1943, show a reversal of that outflow, and a marked increase in the flow of food from Poland to Germany. One reason for that increase could have been the maintenance or increase of food production within Poland combined with a reduction of food consumption within Poland
Another reason could be the borders of the Generalgouvernement moving eastwards after Barbarossa had launched. I'm happy to stand corrected, but I think eastern Poland/western Ukraine is a net food producer.
One way in which food production in Poland in Poland could have been maintained while reducing consumption is a retention of food producers, ie Polish peasants, and a reduction of Polish consumers, specifically be eliminating a group of consumers in Poland who were not food producers, ie town-dwellers.

The timing of reversal of the net outflow of food from Germany to Poland suggests that the elimination of the group of consumers occurred in 1942.

No prizes for guessing the identity of the group of urban consumers in Poland that was not a food-producer and was eliminated in 1942!
Strictly speaking I don't see any need to distinguish between food producers and town dwellers as long as we're dealing with food rations as they are expressed on ration cards, though in reality black market, or non-rationed food would of course be easier to find in the countryside.
The first chart also shows some other cases of net outflow of food from Germany, eg to Norway in 1943, at net outflow of 74.8 million RM, compared with the largest inflow from that country of 50.5 million RM in the previous year...
AFAIK, German food exports to Norway were done only to avert complete starvation of that country; Norway had quite serious food shortages earlier than 1943. Norway's collaborationist government may be an explanation why the Germans chose to export food there eventually.
So it appears that Germany, far from ripping the poor Belgians off food-wise, was actually feeding them on a massive scale. Nice people those Germans...
Yep, nice people indeed. Neighbouring Holland was starving by the end of the war; average calories available to urban dwellers were a disastrously low 460 calories/day.

Here's another food thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=

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#24

Post by Molobo » 25 Aug 2005, 03:03

Another reason could be the borders of the Generalgouvernement moving eastwards after Barbarossa had launched.
Indeed Galicia was added.I think other regions also but I in that I could be mistaken.
there could be other explanations for the net export of foodstuffs to Poland, for example the rather large Wehrmacht presence in Poland in 1941. That's of course just speculation on my part, but there were big regional differences with regards to rations as expressed as the total calories one person would get by covering his needs with ration cards only.
You are correct.Germans had higher rations then those considered subhuman.Besides the Wehrmacht there was population of Germans living in the region as well as those called Volksdeutsche and other ethnic groups.

Nevertheless, the first chart shows some interesting phenomena. One is the net outflow of food from Germany to the Generalgouvernement of Poland in 1940 and 1941, ie in those years Germany was helping to feed Poland, rather than the other way around.

Assuming that the tables are sub-divided by region rather than by ethniticity, there could be other explanations for the net export of foodstuffs to Poland, for example the rather large Wehrmacht presence in Poland in 1941.
Shrek you are right in regards to Mills manipulation:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank ... R%20CRIMES
In order to illustrate how completely Frank as Governor General is identified with the criminal policies whose execution is reported in the foregoing document, and the extent to which they were the official policies of his administration, it is proposed to annotate several of the items with passages from Frank's own diary.

(1) Undernourishment of Polish population. The extent of the undernourishment of the Polish population was reported to Frank in September 1941 by Obermedizinalrat Dr. Walbaum:

"Obermedizinalrat Dr. Walbaum expresses his opinion of the health condition of the Polish population. Investigations which were carried out by his department proved that the majority of Poles eat only about 600 calories, whereas the normal requirement for a human being is 2,200 calories. The Polish population was enfeebled to such an extent that it would fall an easy prey to spotted fever. The number of diseased Poles amounted today already to 40 %. During the last week alone 1000 new spotted fever cases have been officially r e c o r d e d. * * * If the food rations were to be diminished again, an enormous increase of the number of illnesses could be predicted." (2233-P-PS)

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#25

Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005, 03:21

Nevertheless, the first chart shows some interesting phenomena. One is the net outflow of food from Germany to the Generalgouvernement of Poland in 1940 and 1941, ie in those years Germany was helping to feed Poland, rather than the other way around.
In addition to some of the very good reasons for this which have already been discussed (like the food needs of the German occupation troops), the Generalgouvernement occupied a far smaller area than pre-partition Poland, and the foodstuffs produced in the areas annexed by Germany and the USSR were not credited to the (negative) export amounts.

Readers interested in the annexation of western Galicia to the Generalgouvernement, and the extent of German seizures of food in that province, may find these threads helpful:

General Governement and "Distrikt Galizien"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=629647
How the Nazi occupation failed in Galicia/ Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 283#431283

Michael -- You said:
One way in which food production in Poland in Poland could have been maintained while reducing consumption is a retention of food producers, ie Polish peasants, and a reduction of Polish consumers, specifically be eliminating a group of consumers in Poland who were not food producers, ie town-dwellers.

The timing of reversal of the net outflow of food from Germany to Poland suggests that the elimination of the group of consumers occurred in 1942.

No prizes for guessing the identity of the group of urban consumers in Poland that was not a food-producer and was eliminated in 1942!
I think this observation is apt.
Last edited by David Thompson on 25 Aug 2005, 03:25, edited 1 time in total.

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#26

Post by Molobo » 25 Aug 2005, 03:24

Nevertheless, the first chart shows some interesting phenomena. One is the net outflow of food from Germany to the Generalgouvernement of Poland in 1940 and 1941, ie in those years Germany was helping to feed Poland, rather than the other way around.
Manipulation of Mills.
See:
http://www1.yadvashem.org.il/odot_pdf/M ... 206286.pdf
By mid-1941, in Poland, the Germans were giving
out ration cards that provided only 184 calories per day—7.5 percent of the
minimum daily requirement. The Germans themselves received a full ration,
while the Poles received a ration of 26 percent of the daily needs.
And another:
http://www.remember.org/courage/chapter6.html
Rationing began in December 1939, though the fact that an item was rationed did not mean that one necessarily could buy it. In May 1940, the bread ration was cut from 500 gm daily to 200 gm for Jews, though Poles continued to receive 570 gm. Moreover, from this time Jews were allowed essentially no sugar. Poles could obtain limited amounts.

Thus although the non-Jewish Poles were hungry too, their situation was not nearly as bad as it was in the ghetto. Various estimates show that Christian Poles received about 500 calories officially. The allotment for patients in general hospitals was increased from 1000 to 1400 calories during 1942. Despite this change, hospitals were hardly idyllic places with respect to rations.

One Jewish woman who had taken up a Christian identity in Warsaw told of looking after a friend who had a baby in a Warsaw hospital. She had to struggle to find food to take to her friend since the hospital was woefully lacking. Dr. Hagen admitted that in health institutions outside the ghetto, such as orphanages and nursing homes, the ration remained at 500 calories, the standard Polish daily caloric supply. Because of steadily diminishing resources, the caloric value of self-help meals provided in Christian Warsaw fell from 460 calories in December 1940 to 153 calories in July 1941.

By 1941, the official ration provided 2613 calories per day for Germans in Poland (including the Volkdeutsch), 699 calories for Poles, and 184 calories for Jews in the ghetto. Gutman states rather naively that there was "little chance" of surviving on the official ration alone. Actually, there was not the slightest chance for Poles or Jews to survive on the official ration.
continued :
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Frank ... R%20CRIMES
President of the Main Department for Food and Agriculture Naumann (apparently an official of the General Government) then described how the reduced quantity of food available for feeding the population of the General Government should be distributed:

"The feeding of a Jewish population, estimated heretofore at 1.5 million, drops off to an estimated total of 300,000 Jews, who still work for German interests as craftsmen or otherwise. For these the Jewish rations, including certain special allotments which have proved necessary for the maintenance of working capacity, will be retained. The other Jews, a total of 1.2 miilion, will no longer be provided with foodstuffs.
"Non-German normal consumers will receive, from 1 January 1943 to 1 March 1943, instead of 4.2 kg. bread per month, 2.8 kg; from 1 March 1943 to 30 July 1943 the total bread ration for these non-German normal consumers will be cancelled.
"Those entitled to be supplied [ Versorgungsberechtigten] are composed as follows. We estimate that 3 million persons come into consideration as war workers, the A-and B-card holders and their kin, and that somewhat more than 3 mil lion persons are non-German normal consumers, who do not work directly or indirectly in the interests of Germany. The war workers, A-and B-card holders and their families, about 3 million persons, will however continue to be supplied, up to the harvest of 1943, at the prevailing rates." (2233-E-PS)

Naumann goes on to discuss the difficulties that may be encountered in the process of requisition:

"Th e securing of all depots and food processing plants, as well as their transport facilities must be assured, as otherwise irreplaceable losses result which mean a further burdening of the food budget. I have had maps made of all districts [Kreise] on which the depots have all been drawn in. I request that the necessary measures be taken on the part of the police and these depots, which are in the eye of the hungering masses, above all at times when the restrictions are carried out, should be strictly guarded, so that the meager supplies which we have until the new harvest should not be destroyed by sabotage or arson. . . . Finally it must be determined at the beginning of November whether the martial law for the harvest period, which has been proclaimed up to 30 November, must be extended to 30 December. Martial law for the harvest period has been extended to all products which are to be seized. The planned quota increase and reduction of ration quantities must be kept secret under all circumstances and may be published only at that time which the Main Department for Food and Agriculture considers proper. Should the reduction of ration quantities and the increase of quotas become known earlier, extremely noticeable disturbances in the seizure would take place. The mass of the Polish population would then go to the land and would become a supplementary competitor of our requisitioning agencies." (2233-E-PS)

Frank's concluding remarks summarized the position as follows:

"I must point out that some sectors of the administration will feel this very keenly. In the first place the police will feel this, for it will have to deal, if I may say so, with an increased activity of the black market and a neglect of food customs. I will gladly give the police extraordinary powers so that they can overcome these difficulties.
"The economy will feel it. The decrease of work rendered will become felt in all sectors, branches and regions. I also assume that our transport system will feel it too. In view of the worsening living conditions an extraordinary hardship will set in for railroad workers and other categories; as the previous quantities of food were already not enough. The monopolies will feel it through a decrease of their incomes, as the amounts of potatoes available for the production of vodka will be less.
"The Germans in this area shall not feel it. We wish in spite of this new plan to see to it that the supplies for Germans will be maintained. Also the Wehrmacht and other encamped units in this area shall not feel it. We hope that it will be possible for us to keep up the whole quotas here. "To help in this necessity there is a corresponding measure, namely that the supervision of persons traveling from the General Government to the Reich, above all of military personnel, in order to see whether they are taking food out of the General Government, should be suspended. This means that in addition to all that which we must now extract from the land economically, there must take place a complete removal of control over that which is dragged out of the land by thousands upon thousands-doubtless illegally and against our government measures." (2233-E-PS)

The extent of the General Government's food contribution to the Reich, and its significance in terms of rations within Germany were described by Frank at a meeting of political leaders of the NSDAP in December 1942 at Cracow:

"I will endeavor to get out of the reservoir of this territory everything that is yet to be got out of it. When you consider that it was possible for me to deliver to the Reich 600,000 tons of bread grain, and in addition 180,000 tons to the Armed Forces stationed here; further an abundance amounting to many thousands of tons of other commodities such as seed, fats, vegetables, besides the delivery to the Reich of 300 million eggs, etc.-you can estimate the significance of the consignment from the General Government of 600,000 tons of bread grain; you are referred to the fact that the General Government by this achievement alone covers the raising of the bread ration in the Greater German Reich by two-thirds during the present rationing period. This enormous achievement can rightfully be claimed by us." (2233-Z-PS)

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#27

Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005, 06:22

Molobo -- you said, in response to this quote from Michael Mills:
Nevertheless, the first chart shows some interesting phenomena. One is the net outflow of food from Germany to the Generalgouvernement of Poland in 1940 and 1941, ie in those years Germany was helping to feed Poland, rather than the other way around.

Manipulation of Mills
Chart 639a, in my post above at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 309#754309 , clearly shows a minus balance in the net imports of foodstuffs from Poland in 1940 (-30.4 million RM) and 1941 (-10.4 million RM). This means that in 1940 Germany sent 30.4 million Reichsmarks worth of food into Poland, and another 10.4 million Reichsmarks worth of food in 1941. These figures say nothing about who ate the food.

It is well-established that the rations in the Generalgouvernement for Poles and Jews were horrible in 1940 and 1941. T. Tsarota, Warschau unter dem Hakenkreuz, Paderborn: 1985, p. 113, gives these figures:

1940

1st Quarter Poles 609 calories; Jews 503 calories
2nd Quarter Poles 704 calories; Jews 449 calories
3rd Quarter Poles 698 calories; Jews 331 calories
4th Quarter Poles 938 calories; Jews 369 calories
Yearly average Poles 737 calories; Jews 413 calories

1941

1st Quarter Poles 611 calories; Jews 237 calories
2nd Quarter Poles 553 calories; Jews 219 calories
3rd Quarter Poles 531 calories; Jews 198 calories
4th Quarter Poles 981 calories; Jews 360 calories
Yearly average Poles 669 calories; Jews 253 calories

However, neither these figures nor anything you posted show that Mr. Mills has manipulated anything, nor do your quotations explain the minus balances in the net imports of foodstuffs from Poland during 1940 and 1941. The question here is what accounts for the minus balances in those years. All that these figures and your quotes show is that, whatever the explanation for the minus balances may have been, the Poles and Jews of the Generalgouvernement didn't get much to eat in 1940-1941. Even so, and even after confiscations from Polish farmers, the Germans may still have had to import food into Poland to provide hefty rations to the German occupiers and Volksdeutsch community.

The chart 639a figures are provided by A.S. Milward, not Michael Mills. If you are going to raise a claim of "manipulation" by one of the posters, be prepared to prove it. If you can't, don't make the claim.

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#28

Post by Mark V » 25 Aug 2005, 07:29

michael mills wrote:According to the figures posted by DrG, Britain was far more exposed to being starved into submission than Germany, since it was only 25% self-sufficient in food.
Britain also screw up the Europe balance statistics in imported amounts of food previously posted.

It is easy to see that Britains share is considerable. Maybe half of imports to Europe prewar.


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#29

Post by Andreas » 25 Aug 2005, 09:04

David

Could it be that the 1940/41 exports into Poland were sent to supply the Wehrmacht formations that were built up for Barbarossa during this time, or is Wehrmacht food supply completely (largely) excluded from the table?

All the best

Andreas

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#30

Post by David Thompson » 25 Aug 2005, 15:22

Andreas -- You asked:
Could it be that the 1940/41 exports into Poland were sent to supply the Wehrmacht formations that were built up for Barbarossa during this time, or is Wehrmacht food supply completely (largely) excluded from the table?

I suspect the first part of your sentence is the explanation, since the chart caption doesn't mention Wehrmacht provisions and consequently has not clearly excluded them.

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