The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

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nny
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#31

Post by nny » 08 Oct 2005, 10:06

Sven-Eric wrote:To call Stephen Wheatcroft "Stalin's Irving" is extremely unfair. He is one of the best scholars on the subject. And if you read the book Years of Hunger you can see that even his old anthagonist Robert Conquest in a letter to him admits that the famine was not intentional.

Regards,
Sven-Eric
The Famine occurred in an area that was of great concern to the Bolsheviks was probably a coincidence, that policies in regards to food distribution were enforced during the 'famine' exacted the harshest tolls in the Ukraine (But certainly not exclusive to the Ukraine) shows that hunger was certainly used as a weapon. It seems from my sources (Quoted above) that the food situation was anything but urgent in regards to the Ukraine, it was the Soviet policy of redistributing the foodstuffs which caused the famine. If the Ukraine, in 1932, was in control of its own fate it would hardely have shipped so much food out of its own country while so many of its citizens were starving. But since it wasn't in control of its own fate, since the Ukraine was a "Thorn in the side of Stalin and the Bolsheviks", its fate was starvation.

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Dmitry
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#32

Post by Dmitry » 08 Oct 2005, 10:08

nny wrote:Anyway, to make it short, I believe NO, the Cossacks were NOT Russians, not in the sense that Russians were Russians.
You know, you are trying to say that I'm not Russian (at least from my mother's side). :lol: And what does it mean to be Russian, in your opinion?
nny wrote:To draw an analogy, for a long long time the Irish were dominated by the English, but I don't believe they ever wanted, or should have been defined as "British" rather than Irish. Just because you can militarily over power a people and enslave them does not make them property of the state in any way.
Cannot see any analogy there. What language do you think was used by Cossacks before they (according to your theory) became Russians? Are you sure you didn't mean Kazakhs?

Actually, I myself don't think that it's correct to call famine of 1930s Ukrainian, because my relatives in Volga region (Astrakhan Cossacks) suffered too.


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#33

Post by nny » 29 Oct 2005, 10:25

Dmitry wrote:
nny wrote:Anyway, to make it short, I believe NO, the Cossacks were NOT Russians, not in the sense that Russians were Russians.
You know, you are trying to say that I'm not Russian (at least from my mother's side). :lol: And what does it mean to be Russian, in your opinion?
uhg, NO Dmitry, I don't even know who you are, and I would never 'accuse' you of not being Russian, and all that implys. I was making an analogy between the persecution of the Crimean Tartars, the Chechyns and the treatment of the average Russians in the same period. The general (I want to say denier, but since I don't wish to get that personal, though I believe it is exaclty appropriate due to the current climate of posts on this forum) attitude is that the 'soviets' looked at all pro-soviet people and treated them fairly based on their actions, and race / religion / ethnicity had nothing to do with their decisions. There were a number of charges leveled at "soviet" citizens after VE day, and these were not based on facts, but were based on what 'races' Stalin wished to rid himself of --

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ht=#730871

Certain people would like to paint these victims as criminals, somehow deserving of their fates, but most thinking people understand this is not true. Most Americans (including myself) didn't grow up in an environment where Stalin was an ambiguous person, nor was he (In my experiences) ever exalted as a hero. We understand that he murdered people, and did so in large numbers.

nny wrote:To draw an analogy, for a long long time the Irish were dominated by the English, but I don't believe they ever wanted, or should have been defined as "British" rather than Irish. Just because you can militarily over power a people and enslave them does not make them property of the state in any way.
Cannot see any analogy there. What language do you think was used by Cossacks before they (according to your theory) became Russians? Are you sure you didn't mean Kazakhs?
Well I never said the Irish spoke the same language as the English, Gaelic was banned in Ireland for most of English Rule. And I never had a theory that the Cossacks 'became Russians', I've never been in a position to decide that point, nor enforce it, but I have plenty of pictures in Holocaust books that I can scan and post with subtitles such as "Cossack gunmen pose over Jewish victims" and the such. If you want to do a search on this forum you will find more than a number of Jewish posters who believe the Cossacks got what they deserved at the hands of the Soviets because of what they did at the Tsars bidding. I also am aware of the Cossack 'repatriation' after "VE" day, and how they were treated by Stalin and his cronies.

Anyways, to set your mind at ease, speaking as an American, knowing most of my friends pretty well, if I asked them to describe a Russian, they would be able to name the Russian capital, famous Russians, the area it was located in etc. But if I asked them to describe a Cossack, there would be a long blank visage drawn across their faces, and I would suspect that is not unique. Maybe I am mistaken, but I would believe your post, as a 'cossack', is in defense of the soviet system, and not your own people. Either way, to get to the core of it, what does you being a 'cossack', or rather (as you have vehemently announced) a russian, have to do with the Ukrainian famine during the 1930s?

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Dmitry
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#34

Post by Dmitry » 29 Oct 2005, 11:05

nny wrote: Either way, to get to the core of it, what does you being a 'cossack', or rather (as you have vehemently announced) a russian, have to do with the Ukrainian famine during the 1930s?
The famine during the 1930s cannot be called solely Ukrainian because other regions (Northern Caucassus, Volga region <were my cossak relatives lived>, some regions in Siberia, Kazakhstan) had suffered too.

PS: I'm sorry, but your discourse on Cossacks looks to me like something incoherent. I do not understand what's your point? Cossacks in Russia were mostly ethnic Russian people that lived in their own lifestyle that was most proper in the particular regions and they are could be called special soslovie (estate or class) not ethnic group. Russia is a big country and for example ethnic Russian people from the North 'pomory' differ from South ethnic Russians very much but they are all ethnic Russians. There in Russia also live many Russian citisens that are indigenous people and are not ethnic Russians as for example Volga Tartars, Kalmyks etc.

Since you are an American I have a question to you that maybe will a bit enlight you on Cossakcs:
Who cowboys were in America? Do you think they were a nation or they were a part of social system? I believe the second and so were cossacks in their own way.

Tony Fermor
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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#35

Post by Tony Fermor » 27 Jul 2008, 11:47

This was in yesterday paper

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... amine.html

Cheers

Tony

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Marcus
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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#36

Post by Marcus » 27 Jul 2008, 12:19

Tony Fermor wrote:This was in yesterday paper

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... amine.html
Corrected link to the article by Simon Sebag Montefiore: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... amine.html

/Marcus

Boby
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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#37

Post by Boby » 27 Jul 2008, 13:03

Hi all

This is an abstract of an article by Michael Ellman in "Europe-Asia Studies" about the famine of 1932:
This article contributes to the debate about the role of Stalin in the Soviet famine of 1932 - 33. It provides data on Stalin's statements and actions in 1932 - 33, judicial and extra-judicial repression, and the process by which the 1933 deportation targets were drastically reduced. It is suggested that starvation was a cheap substitute for the cancelled deportations. It is argued that in 1932 - 33 Stalin pursued a multi-pronged policy of state terror against the population of the USSR. Some general issues of interpretation are also considered, such as Bolshevik perceptions, the characterisation of Soviet industrialisation, and approaches to Soviet history. Extensive attention is given to the classification of Stalin's actions according to national and international criminal law. In particular, the question of whether or not in 1932 - 33 the Ukrainian people were victims of genocide, is analysed.
Michael Ellman, "Stalin and the Soviet famine of 1932-33 Revisited", Europe-Asia Studies 59, Nr. 4 (2007), pp. 663-693

Is the first time that I read something like this, that the famine was a substitute for the cancelled deportations.

¿Opinions?

Boby,

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Askold
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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#38

Post by Askold » 02 Aug 2008, 18:26

It is interesting to note that those who oppose the fact that the Famine was a genocide always bring up the casualties in Volga and other regions, whoever , we can also see to whom the issue relates closely by seeing how it is covered today. It seems that Ukraine is the only country that actually brings up the Genocide issue. In present day Russia the society in no way associate itself with the victims of the Famine and Stalin is in fact in the top two on the Famous Russians list. Also Reino brought up an excellent point - throughout the documents there is always referral to "Ukrainian grain" not other regions. The action was purposely planted to destroy the middle class Ukrainian peasants and crush any hopes of Nationalism in East-Central Ukraine.

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#39

Post by Sergey » 03 Aug 2008, 20:10

Askold wrote:It is interesting to note that those who oppose the fact that the Famine was a genocide always bring up the casualties in Volga and other regions, whoever , we can also see to whom the issue relates closely by seeing how it is covered today. It seems that Ukraine is the only country that actually brings up the Genocide issue. In present day Russia the society in no way associate itself with the victims of the Famine and Stalin is in fact in the top two on the Famous Russians list. Also Reino brought up an excellent point - throughout the documents there is always referral to "Ukrainian grain" not other regions. The action was purposely planted to destroy the middle class Ukrainian peasants and crush any hopes of Nationalism in East-Central Ukraine.
The situation is much more simple. Stalin needed workforce for heavy industry in Ukraine. He needed coal, steel, chemicals, electricity, tanks and other weapons. Without it the Soviet union was doomed to be defeated by Germany. Parents of my wife were born a in big village near the city of Dnepropetrovsk (huge industrial centre).But Ukrainian peasants were not eager to become workers. So Stalin ordered to create 'food shortage' in Ukraine to force peasants to work in cities (where was no famine in industrial centres). As a result many relatives of my parents-in-Law went to Dnepropetrovsk. Some settled there.

Was it inhuman? Yes. What would happen if Germany would win the war? Unlikely Ukrainian nationalists would have abilities to realise their ideas.

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#40

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 04 Aug 2008, 06:57

Soviet union was doomed to be defeated by Germany.
By the 100,000 men Reichswehr? Are you kidding? 8O

He rather need this potential to slave the Rest of Europa, at least till middle of Europe he was successful :roll:

By the way, your justification of Stalins killings reminds me of those Prophet denying or justifying the other mass genocidical acts in 20th century, the Holocaust and the Destructions of German life East of the Oder and Moldau...

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#41

Post by Art » 04 Aug 2008, 11:47

Sergey wrote: The situation is much more simple. Stalin needed workforce for heavy industry in Ukraine. He needed coal, steel, chemicals, electricity, tanks and other weapons. Without it the Soviet union was doomed to be defeated by Germany. Parents of my wife were born a in big village near the city of Dnepropetrovsk (huge industrial centre).But Ukrainian peasants were not eager to become workers. So Stalin ordered to create 'food shortage' in Ukraine to force peasants to work in cities (where was no famine in industrial centres). As a result many relatives of my parents-in-Law went to Dnepropetrovsk. Some settled there.
First of all, on the modern stage of reasearch it is generally assumed that the food shortage in 1933 resulted from a very poor harvest of the previous year, rather than was designed by Stalin. It's well known, for example, that the amount of state purchase of grain in Ukraine in 1932/33 was almost two times smaller then in the previous year (4,2 and 7,3 mlns tons repsectively). The the same situation with the total grain purchase from peasants in the entire Soviet Union. So the state policiy was hardly more harsh than in the previous years, when no catastrophic famine occured.
Then, if you look at the impact of famine on urban population, you'll see that in reality it was completely different from the one descirbed by you.
The famine resulted in a negative natural increase of urban popaulation. In other words the number of deaths exceeded the number of birth. According to the statistical data during the year 1933, the natural decrease of the Soviet Union's urban popluation constituted 360,8 thousands, of them in Russia - 247,9 thousands, in Ukraine - 116,6 thousands. The decrease was most prominent in the regions that suffered from the famine - Ukraine, North Caucasus, Volga and Black Soil regions and also in Ural. Interesting to note, that the for rural poplualaion of the Russain SFSR deaths and birth more or less compensated each other, the natural increase constituted 32,7 thousands, though corrections must be made for incomplete statistics.
The migration from rural areas to the city continued, however it decreased sharply. In fact the year 1933 demonstrated the minimal rate of migration for the first half of 30's. It was equal to 772 thousands (official statistics again). For comparison in 1931 (maximual migration) it was equal to 4 100 thousands. The result is understandable if we remember about that amount of food purchased by the state was smaller then in the previous years. The state had less food to allocate to the cities, so the level of life naurally dropped rather low, that entailed obvious consequences for peasants' willingness to migrate to cities . No separate data for Ukraine are available to me, but a least the registered mechanical increase of Ukrainian ubran population through migration was equal to 57 thousands. The statistics on the size of Ukrainian urban popluation gives somewhat different results (7 158,7 thousands on 1.01.33 and 7 283, 5 thousands on 1.01.34), but anyway no extraordinary increase was registered. It must be mentioned that the data above most likely pertain to permanent poplualtion only and don't include refugees from the countriside temporary migrating to the cities in search for food as it was in 1933.

To make a conslusion, the process of urbanization went quite succesful in the years without famine, but when famine occured it had the most detrimental effect on the rate of urbanization. So the statement that famine was a chain in the urbanization policy of the state doesn't seem vaild to me.

Numbers quoted are from "Zhertvy goloda 1993 goda" by Ye.A.Osokina

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#42

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 04 Aug 2008, 12:10

According to my memory SU exported more than 100 Mio. Pud of grain in both 1932 and 1933...

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#43

Post by Boby » 04 Aug 2008, 12:24

I have this data.

Export Grain

1931: 5.200.000 Tons
1932: 1.730.000 Tons (First Six months: 750.000; Last Six months: 980.000)
1933: 1.680.000 Tons (First Six months: 354.000; Last Six months: 1.326.000)

Source: Mark B. Tauber, "The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933", Slavic Review 50, Nr. 1 (1991), pp. 70-89, here: p. 88, n. 51

Boby,
Last edited by Boby on 04 Aug 2008, 16:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#44

Post by Sergey » 04 Aug 2008, 13:34

Art wrote:
Sergey wrote: The situation is much more simple. Stalin needed workforce for heavy industry in Ukraine. He needed coal, steel, chemicals, electricity, tanks and other weapons. Without it the Soviet union was doomed to be defeated by Germany. Parents of my wife were born a in big village near the city of Dnepropetrovsk (huge industrial centre).But Ukrainian peasants were not eager to become workers. So Stalin ordered to create 'food shortage' in Ukraine to force peasants to work in cities (where was no famine in industrial centres). As a result many relatives of my parents-in-Law went to Dnepropetrovsk. Some settled there.
First of all, on the modern stage of reasearch it is generally assumed that the food shortage in 1933 resulted from a very poor harvest of the previous year, rather than was designed by Stalin. It's well known, for example, that the amount of state purchase of grain in Ukraine in 1932/33 was almost two times smaller then in the previous year (4,2 and 7,3 mlns tons repsectively). The the same situation with the total grain purchase from peasants in the entire Soviet Union. So the state policiy was hardly more harsh than in the previous years, when no catastrophic famine occured.
Then, if you look at the impact of famine on urban population, you'll see that in reality it was completely different from the one descirbed by you.
The famine resulted in a negative natural increase of urban popaulation. In other words the number of deaths exceeded the number of birth.
There is a quite natural explanation. Ralatives of my wife who went to Dnepropetrovsk, other villagers mainly were males. Some of them died from natural causes, from accidents in plants and factories, from traffic accidents, as victims of crimes and so on. Women (their wives) generally remained in villages. Some gave birth.
Art wrote:According to the statistical data during the year 1933, the natural decrease of the Soviet Union's urban popluation constituted 360,8 thousands, of them in Russia - 247,9 thousands, in Ukraine - 116,6 thousands. The decrease was most prominent in the regions that suffered from the famine - Ukraine, North Caucasus, Volga and Black Soil regions and also in Ural. Interesting to note, that the for rural poplualaion of the Russain SFSR deaths and birth more or less compensated each other, the natural increase constituted 32,7 thousands, though corrections must be made for incomplete statistics.
The migration from rural areas to the city continued, however it decreased sharply. In fact the year 1933 demonstrated the minimal rate of migration for the first half of 30's. It was equal to 772 thousands (official statistics again). For comparison in 1931 (maximual migration) it was equal to 4 100 thousands. The result is understandable if we remember about that amount of food purchased by the state was smaller then in the previous years. The state had less food to allocate to the cities, so the level of life naurally dropped rather low, that entailed obvious consequences for peasants' willingness to migrate to cities . No separate data for Ukraine are available to me, but a least the registered mechanical increase of Ukrainian ubran population through migration was equal to 57 thousands. The statistics on the size of Ukrainian urban popluation gives somewhat different results (7 158,7 thousands on 1.01.33 and 7 283, 5 thousands on 1.01.34), but anyway no extraordinary increase was registered. It must be mentioned that the data above most likely pertain to permanent poplualtion only and don't include refugees from the countriside temporary migrating to the cities in search for food as it was in 1933.
Many worked in cities 'temporarily'. They were regarded as 'peasants' and many returned to their villages after the end of the famine. Also that time many went to Siberia, to Russian Far East. There are many Ukrainians in these regions now. Soviet leadership was interested in population of these vast areas. It was a strategic task.
Art wrote:To make a conslusion, the process of urbanization went quite succesful in the years without famine, but when famine occured it had the most detrimental effect on the rate of urbanization. So the statement that famine was a chain in the urbanization policy of the state doesn't seem vaild to me.

Numbers quoted are from "Zhertvy goloda 1993 goda" by Ye.A.Osokina
However there was a problem in Ukraine. Ukrainian peasants are very practical. They are conservative, hardworking, use to have sufficient reserves of food and extraordinary measures should be used to stimulate them to work in the cities.

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Re: The 1930s Ukrainian famine revisited

#45

Post by Art » 04 Aug 2008, 14:41

Here are some data on grain export, from the handbook on Soviet foreign trade. For 1921-28 data are calculated using so called "economical year" begining from 1st October. In 1928 a "special quarter" (1.10-31.12) was used and then all statistics is given for normal years beginning from 1st January.
Image
Image
Figures for total grain export are in good agreement with those given by Boby. It's interesting to note how abruptly the export grew in the first years of collectivisation and at the same time how it dropped with the beginning of the grain crisis of 1927. Some useful observation for understanding the origins of collectivisation. As another remark, the numbers demonstrate that usual idea about overwhelming importance of grain in Soviet export of this period is exaggerated. The sum export was equal to 4 539,3 mlns roubles in 1930, 3 553,1 in 1931, 2 518,2 in 1932 and 2 167,5 in 1933. So the grain never accountedr more than 20 % of total export incomes.
For comparison, the number of grain purchased by the state from peasants was 22,1 mlns tons in 1930/31, 22,8 mlns in 1931/32, 18,5 in 1932/33 and 22,7 in 1933/34. The official harvest of 1932 was about 70 mlns, however modern researchers argue that the official statistics strongly overestimeted the harvest.

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